72-equal notation package

Hello all!

I've been discussing with Bernard Hill about getting this Music Publisher
software to support Tartini quartertone and Sims/Maneri 72-equal notation.
See <http://www.braeburn.co.uk> for what it currently does. You can
download a demo. Somebody with advanced desires in notation may like to
see how far it fulfils them -- it covers everything I know except the
microtonality.

The idea would be that you can use the new accidentals as accidentals
(rather than arbitrary symbols) with keyboard shortcuts. In addition,
playback will be in either 72- or 24-equal using pitchbends, single
timbrally, through a sound card.

I'm intending the simplest implementation that'll work. So it will be
only these two systems and not a configurable microtonal support.
Playback will only be in 24 or 72 so the MIDI implementation will only
need 2 or 6 channels with a simple algorithm.

I want to know if anybody is interested. The package is 115 pounds I
think (say $170, check the website) and the microtonal add-on would cost
about 20 pounds. That should make it accessible to a wide range of people
who are interested in microtonality with conventional notation. Bernard
did point out that a large proportion of his users don't have MIDI
keyboards, so this would be a way of experimenting with microtonality.

I've been given a quote of 2000 pounds (about $3000) for doing the work.
For that I'd get one free copy of the full package, and any money raised
by selling the addon would be refunded until we're quits. I do have the
money in the bank, but can think of other things I'd like to spend it on.
So would anybody be prepared to share the cost with me? It'd mean
sending me the money which will get into complications of trust and
international money transfers. You'll also have to pay for your own copy.
But what do people think? If anybody wants to take over from me, that'd
be fine.

This is an opportunity to get microtonal support in an affordable package.
You know exactly how much it'll cost, so see if you think it's
worthwhile.

Graham

--- In tuning@y..., graham@m... wrote:

/tuning/topicId_37440.html#37440

> Hello all!
>
> I've been discussing with Bernard Hill about getting this Music
Publisher
> software to support Tartini quartertone and Sims/Maneri 72-equal
notation.
> See <http://www.braeburn.co.uk> for what it currently does. You
can
> download a demo.

***Congrats on all your work with this, Graham. Personally, since
I've just purchased and learned *Sibelius* I intend to try to use
that for awhile! I wish you could get the Sibelius people to add 72-
tET, which they said they *might* do at some distant and undefined
future...

Joseph

[Graham wrote...]
>This is an opportunity to get microtonal support in an affordable
>package. You know exactly how much it'll cost, so see if you think
>it's worthwhile.

Any other time, I would, but I've been made redundant recently and
I'm not at liberty to spend money.

I suggest you try Sibelius with the plugin before you pay a lot for
custom work. You may find it adequate, or come up with some good ideas
from what it doesn't do.

Thanks for the heads up.

-Carl

--- In tuning@y..., Carl Lumma <carl@l...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_37440.html#37530

>
> I suggest you try Sibelius with the plugin before you pay a lot for
> custom work. You may find it adequate, or come up with some good
ideas from what it doesn't do.
>

***Actually, what Graham *might* do (hi Graham! hope you're listening
too!) is help develop some more microtonal plug-ins for Sibelius, or
try to influence them as a *programmer* to expand their microtonal
offerings...

The basic problem is that the Sibelius "ManuScript" which is their
proprietary plug-in software (that I'm sure Graham would be
fascinated with if he saw it) doesn't access certain of their basic
materials, like SYMBOLS.

Otherwise, it would be "easy" (says me a non-programmer except for
basic basic) to create a plug-in that could associate pitch bends
with certain microtonal symbols. That would be a great time-saver.
As it stands, I have to enter in all the pitch bends manually or use
Pete Walton's plug-in.

Pet Walton's "temperaments plug in" is quite interesting, and Graham
should see it, but it still involves using the STANDARD Sibelius
accidental set. These accidentals are sent certain pitch bends, and
it works nicely, but for somebody like me who wants the 72-tET
SYMBOLS in addition to the bends, it's not so optimal.

But Sibelius has a *huge* platform and is a fully professional
product. It really doesn't look like the software that Graham
pointed to is is that same league, on cursory appraisal...

J. Pehrson

In-Reply-To: <ae4vlf+v2jb@eGroups.com>
jpehrson2 wrote:

> ***Actually, what Graham *might* do (hi Graham! hope you're listening
> too!) is help develop some more microtonal plug-ins for Sibelius, or
> try to influence them as a *programmer* to expand their microtonal
> offerings...

I'll have to look at both Sibelius and Finale if the other plan doesn't go
through. If Carl has more time (sorry to hear about the circumstances)
perhaps he could look into the plug-ins.

> The basic problem is that the Sibelius "ManuScript" which is their
> proprietary plug-in software (that I'm sure Graham would be
> fascinated with if he saw it) doesn't access certain of their basic
> materials, like SYMBOLS.

That'd be a problem, then.

> Otherwise, it would be "easy" (says me a non-programmer except for
> basic basic) to create a plug-in that could associate pitch bends
> with certain microtonal symbols. That would be a great time-saver.
> As it stands, I have to enter in all the pitch bends manually or use
> Pete Walton's plug-in.

It might be easy until you add the menus and keyboard shortcuts for adding
the symbols, make sure they don't clash with the rest of the program, test
it on multiple systems and write the help files. All that will take a
week or to, and has to be paid for, which explains the 2000 pound quote I
got from Bernard. You'll be hard pressed to beat it from any source. And
if nobody's prepared to pay for it, what incentive is there for Sibelius
to provide the support instead?

> Pet Walton's "temperaments plug in" is quite interesting, and Graham
> should see it, but it still involves using the STANDARD Sibelius
> accidental set. These accidentals are sent certain pitch bends, and
> it works nicely, but for somebody like me who wants the 72-tET
> SYMBOLS in addition to the bends, it's not so optimal.

That sounds like an add-on Bernard has for his program, which is where
all this started. Can it treat G# and Ab differently?

> But Sibelius has a *huge* platform and is a fully professional
> product. It really doesn't look like the software that Graham
> pointed to is is that same league, on cursory appraisal...

Are there any specific features you need that it doesn't have? It is a
lot cheaper, and if it did have integrated support for 72-equal, wouldn't
it automatically become the best choice? It would also make it easier for
people who are familiar with notation but not keyboards, and don't have
one of the larger packages, to experiment with the tunings.

This only came up from a Usenet discussion. I'm not going round all the
companies making proposals, although if people are prepared to pledge the
money you could always try that. Bernard made an offer, and we can take
or leave it. He isn't a fan of alternative tunings, and won't do the work
for his own pleasure, at least not beyond quartertones.

Graham

--- In tuning@y..., graham@m... wrote:

/tuning/topicId_37440.html#37544
>
> > Pet Walton's "temperaments plug in" is quite interesting, and
Graham
> > should see it, but it still involves using the STANDARD Sibelius
> > accidental set. These accidentals are sent certain pitch bends,
and
> > it works nicely, but for somebody like me who wants the 72-tET
> > SYMBOLS in addition to the bends, it's not so optimal.
>
> That sounds like an add-on Bernard has for his program, which is
where all this started. Can it treat G# and Ab differently?
>

***Yes, that's it exactly, Graham. It differentiates *all* the
Sibelius accidentals from bb to x, and includes quartertones. I
believe there were 9 in all, if I remember correctly, for each letter
name.

> > But Sibelius has a *huge* platform and is a fully professional
> > product. It really doesn't look like the software that Graham
> > pointed to is is that same league, on cursory appraisal...
>
> Are there any specific features you need that it doesn't have? It
is a lot cheaper, and if it did have integrated support for 72-equal,
wouldn't it automatically become the best choice?

***Well, possibly, but since I already purchased and learned
Sibelius, I intend to use it. It also converts all my older scores
from IBM SCORE format... So I have to do the 72-tET stuff *manually*
but that's not impossible.

JP

>I'll have to look at both Sibelius and Finale if the other plan doesn't
>go through.

I would think you'd want to look _before_ the plan went through!

>If Carl has more time (sorry to hear about the circumstances)
>perhaps he could look into the plug-ins.

I've just mailed Peter for a copy.

Need any software QA in Clevedon?

>It might be easy until you add the menus and keyboard shortcuts for
>adding the symbols, make sure they don't clash with the rest of the
>program, test it on multiple systems and write the help files. All
>that will take a week or to, and has to be paid for, which explains
>the 2000 pound quote I got from Bernard. You'll be hard pressed to
>beat it from any source. And if nobody's prepared to pay for it, what
>incentive is there for Sibelius to provide the support instead?

In fact I wondered why Bernard's quote is so low.

But that's why Joseph's suggestion of you looking into the Sibelius
scripting lang is such a good one, Graham. Most of the bad stuff of
development is factored out.

-Carl

Graham,

The music publisher screen shots show a Windows 3.x system. That sets
off serious alarm bells on my end.

I can believe that this is good software for a reasonable price. But
if you're going to pay $3000... yes, it would be great to give the
world a microtonal-capable system at a reasonable price... but packages
like Sibelius already have such a large user base. . .

-Carl