Yasser! Whatever you say...

Although I have yet to read the Werntz article (patience, patience) I
have been reading Joel Mandelbaum's dissertation again, and I
note some parallels in Julia's approach to that of Yasser, who
was an equal temperament enthusiast.

As Mandelbaum himself states, Yasser is much more interested in
the "sociological" and linear implications of 19-equal, which
he helped to "popularize" than in the approximation of the
scale to just intervals which, as we have seen, it does pretty well
on the overall.

As Mandelbaum states, "Where Kornerup and Ariel approach 19-tone
temperament on an acoustic-harmonic basis, Yasser is far more
concerned with the socio-melodic aspects."

Yasser is, apparently, interested in a kind of "generalized"
diatonicity, which results when a scale has inequalities in it's
consecutive intervals. In 19-equal, apparently, Yasser constructs
a "rule" for consonance and dissonance depending on the
positioning of consecutive members of the scale:

Mandelbaum: "Yasser's formula for the determination of
consonance and dissonance from the scale is the essence of
simplicity. In any of Yasser's systems, dissonance is the
property of consecutive members of the functional scale, while
consonance is the property of alternate members of the scale...."

Yasser derives consonances by the superimposition of linear
"Supra-thirds" which correspond to 3/19 and 4/19. As
Mandelbaum
states, "All intervals produced by the superposition of
supra-thirds
Yasser labels consonant, and all intervals not produced by this
process he calls dissonant. This process leads to most interesting
and questionable results..."

One of these results, as Mendelbaum points out, is the fact that, in
this process 5/19 and 8/19 and inversions, 11/19 are
labeled "dissonances." 11/19 is the perfect fifth 3:2!

Again Mandelbaum: "Having declared 11/19 and 5/19 to be
dissonances, Yasser concludes that the small-number ratios 3:2 and
6:5 cannot function as consonances and therefore should be eliminated
from supra-diatonic music altogether. The 3rd partial, a factor
common to both of the rejected intervals, is therefore eliminated
from Yasser's theoretical basis for the system. Yasser goes even
further, suggesting that in constructing supra-diatonic instruments
the builders consider eliminating the 3rd partial as far as possible
from the TIMBRE of the tones..."

In a sense, a historical precendent to Werntz, Yasser is very
oriented toward the ET, linear approach to 19-tET.

Mandelbaum: "Yasser is particularly interested in the phenomenon
of equal temperament and its role in the evolution of musical
systems. His conclusions are indicative of his preference for
empirical and sociological data as the basis for aesthetic
doctrine..." "The phenomenon of equal temperament in
widespread musical practice shows, according to Yasser, that `The
human ear adjusts itself with comparative ease to artificial
intonations even if their deviations from Just Intonation are very
perceptible.'"

Yasser! Whatever you say...

J. Pehrson

--- In tuning@y..., "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> Although I have yet to read the Werntz article (patience, patience)
I
> have been reading Joel Mandelbaum's dissertation again, and I
> note some parallels in Julia's approach to that of Yasser, who
> was an equal temperament enthusiast.
>
> As Mandelbaum himself states, Yasser is much more interested in
> the "sociological" and linear implications of 19-equal, which
> he helped to "popularize" than in the approximation of the
> scale to just intervals which, as we have seen, it does pretty well
> on the overall.

what's disconcerting is that yasser attempts to describe and predict
these "sociological" phenomena with theories that have nothing more
than numerology at their core. and that, despite the above, he spends
pages upon pages attempting to ascribe just ratios to his system,
straining credulity.

> Mandelbaum: "Yasser's formula for the determination of
> consonance and dissonance from the scale is the essence of
> simplicity. In any of Yasser's systems, dissonance is the
> property of consecutive members of the functional scale, while
> consonance is the property of alternate members of the scale...."

again with no suggestion of what sociological or other phenomena
might underlie such a formula . . .

although yasser skews his discussion on chinese music to support this
thesis, a strikingly similar, yet quite different, rule was actually
invoked by the ancient chinese: intervals in the chain of fifths were
alternately "yin" and "yang", and this determined the degree of
compatibility:

perfect fifth/fourth: compatible
major second/minor seventh: incompatible
major sixth/minor third: compatible
major third/minor sixth: incompatible
major seventh/minor second: compatible

etc.

one doesn't have to look at pure-tuning theories to see the role
extra-musical superstitions can have upon music, musicians, and
musical styles!

> Yasser derives consonances by the superimposition of linear
> "Supra-thirds" which correspond to 3/19 and 4/19. As
> Mandelbaum
> states, "All intervals produced by the superposition of
> supra-thirds
> Yasser labels consonant, and all intervals not produced by this
> process he calls dissonant. This process leads to most interesting
> and questionable results..."
>
> One of these results, as Mendelbaum points out, is the fact that,
in
> this process 5/19 and 8/19 and inversions, 11/19 are
> labeled "dissonances." 11/19 is the perfect fifth 3:2!
>
> Again Mandelbaum: "Having declared 11/19 and 5/19 to be
> dissonances, Yasser concludes that the small-number ratios 3:2 and
> 6:5 cannot function as consonances and therefore should be
eliminated
> from supra-diatonic music altogether. The 3rd partial, a factor
> common to both of the rejected intervals, is therefore eliminated
> from Yasser's theoretical basis for the system. Yasser goes even
> further, suggesting that in constructing supra-diatonic instruments
> the builders consider eliminating the 3rd partial as far as
possible
> from the TIMBRE of the tones..."

and tillman schafer actually went so far as construct such
instruments! it's too bad for yasser that the concordance of the
perfect fifth subsists even when the relevant partials are
eliminated . . .

> In a sense, a historical precendent to Werntz, Yasser is very
> oriented toward the ET, linear approach to 19-tET.

maybe you should read both yasser and werntz before saying that. it's
pretty "out there" as far as analogies go.

--- In tuning@y..., "emotionaljourney22" <paul@s...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_37428.html#37454

> > In a sense, a historical precendent to Werntz, Yasser is very
> > oriented toward the ET, linear approach to 19-tET.
>
> maybe you should read both yasser and werntz before saying that.
it's pretty "out there" as far as analogies go.

****Hmmm. Now *there's* a good point. Better "erase" that one from
the record...

JP

Hello Joseph!
I too have had Yasser is the back of my mind with the idea of scales evolving into systems with more notes. I love his stuff on the harmonizing pentatonics and only wished he would have also gone to 31 and beyond, The harmonies in 19 ET just didn't work for me.

>
> From: "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@rcn.com>
> Subject: Yasser! Whatever you say...
>
> Although I have yet to read the Werntz article (patience, patience) I
> have been reading Joel Mandelbaum's dissertation again, and I
> note some parallels in Julia's approach to that of Yasser, who
> was an equal temperament enthusiast.
>
> As Mandelbaum himself states, Yasser is much more interested in
> the "sociological" and linear implications of 19-equal, which
> he helped to "popularize" than in the approximation of the
> scale to just intervals which, as we have seen, it does pretty well
> on the overall.
>
> As Mandelbaum states, "Where Kornerup and Ariel approach 19-tone
> temperament on an acoustic-harmonic basis, Yasser is far more
> concerned with the socio-melodic aspects."
>
> Yasser is, apparently, interested in a kind of "generalized"
> diatonicity, which results when a scale has inequalities in it's
> consecutive intervals. In 19-equal, apparently, Yasser constructs
> a "rule" for consonance and dissonance depending on the
> positioning of consecutive members of the scale:
>
> Mandelbaum: "Yasser's formula for the determination of
> consonance and dissonance from the scale is the essence of
> simplicity. In any of Yasser's systems, dissonance is the
> property of consecutive members of the functional scale, while
> consonance is the property of alternate members of the scale...."
>
> Yasser derives consonances by the superimposition of linear
> "Supra-thirds" which correspond to 3/19 and 4/19. As
> Mandelbaum
> states, "All intervals produced by the superposition of
> supra-thirds
> Yasser labels consonant, and all intervals not produced by this
> process he calls dissonant. This process leads to most interesting
> and questionable results..."
>
> One of these results, as Mendelbaum points out, is the fact that, in
> this process 5/19 and 8/19 and inversions, 11/19 are
> labeled "dissonances." 11/19 is the perfect fifth 3:2!
>
> Again Mandelbaum: "Having declared 11/19 and 5/19 to be
> dissonances, Yasser concludes that the small-number ratios 3:2 and
> 6:5 cannot function as consonances and therefore should be eliminated
> from supra-diatonic music altogether. The 3rd partial, a factor
> common to both of the rejected intervals, is therefore eliminated
> from Yasser's theoretical basis for the system. Yasser goes even
> further, suggesting that in constructing supra-diatonic instruments
> the builders consider eliminating the 3rd partial as far as possible
> from the TIMBRE of the tones..."
>
> In a sense, a historical precendent to Werntz, Yasser is very
> oriented toward the ET, linear approach to 19-tET.
>
> Mandelbaum: "Yasser is particularly interested in the phenomenon
> of equal temperament and its role in the evolution of musical
> systems. His conclusions are indicative of his preference for
> empirical and sociological data as the basis for aesthetic
> doctrine..." "The phenomenon of equal temperament in
> widespread musical practice shows, according to Yasser, that `The
> human ear adjusts itself with comparative ease to artificial
> intonations even if their deviations from Just Intonation are very
> perceptible.'"
>
> Yasser! Whatever you say...
>
> J. Pehrson
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

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