tuning in Armenian music

Hello tuners.

I was listeneing to a very beautiful piece of music the other day. It
was a trdiinal armenian song called "you are a plane tree" I
heard it on a classical compliation cd for a radio station in
Australia. It was sung by a gemale soprano.

I was wondering whether anybody knew about the scales and
tuning/s used in Armenian music. If any one has any theory on
how armenian traditional music is constructed that would be
appreciated immensely too.

Justin

--- In tuning@y..., "justintonation" <JUSTINTONATION@H...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_37201.html#37201

> Hello tuners.
>
> I was listeneing to a very beautiful piece of music the other day.
It
> was a trdiinal armenian song called "you are a plane tree" I
> heard it on a classical compliation cd for a radio station in
> Australia. It was sung by a gemale soprano.
>
> I was wondering whether anybody knew about the scales and
> tuning/s used in Armenian music. If any one has any theory on
> how armenian traditional music is constructed that would be
> appreciated immensely too.
>
> Justin

Actually, I have just the person for you. His name is Hayg
Boyadjian, and he is a composer of Armenian extraction. I was just
speaking to him last night. He knows all about this stuff.

If you're interested, please e-mail me off list [I'm getting smart
this time... :)] amd I will provide his e-mail address.

best,

Joseph

--- In tuning@y..., "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "justintonation" <JUSTINTONATION@H...> wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_37201.html#37201
>
> > Hello tuners.
> >
> > I was listeneing to a very beautiful piece of music the other
day.
> It
> > was a trdiinal armenian song called "you are a plane tree" I
> > heard it on a classical compliation cd for a radio station in
> > Australia. It was sung by a gemale soprano.
> >
> > I was wondering whether anybody knew about the scales and
> > tuning/s used in Armenian music. If any one has any theory on
> > how armenian traditional music is constructed that would be
> > appreciated immensely too.
> >
> > Justin
>
>
> Actually, I have just the person for you. His name is Hayg
> Boyadjian, and he is a composer of Armenian extraction. I was just
> speaking to him last night. He knows all about this stuff.
>
> If you're interested, please e-mail me off list [I'm getting smart
> this time... :)] amd I will provide his e-mail address.
>
> best,
>
> Joseph

ara has some references on this too. if you could get mr. boyadjian
to post to this list, i'm sure some interesting discussion will
result!

--- In tuning@y..., "emotionaljourney22" <paul@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> > --- In tuning@y..., "justintonation" <JUSTINTONATION@H...>
wrote:
> >
> > /tuning/topicId_37201.html#37201
> >
> > > Hello tuners.
> > >
> > > I was listeneing to a very beautiful piece of music the other
> day.
> > It
> > > was a trdiinal armenian song called "you are a plane tree" I
> > > heard it on a classical compliation cd for a radio station in
> > > Australia. It was sung by a gemale soprano.
> > >
> > > I was wondering whether anybody knew about the scales
and
> > > tuning/s used in Armenian music. If any one has any theory
on
> > > how armenian traditional music is constructed that would
be
> > > appreciated immensely too.
> > >
> > > Justin
> >
> >
> > Actually, I have just the person for you. His name is Hayg
> > Boyadjian, and he is a composer of Armenian extraction. I
was just
> > speaking to him last night. He knows all about this stuff.
> >
> > If you're interested, please e-mail me off list [I'm getting
smart
> > this time... :)] amd I will provide his e-mail address.
> >
> > best,
> >
> > Joseph
>
> ara has some references on this too. if you could get mr.
boyadjian
> to post to this list, i'm sure some interesting discussion will
> result!

Paul,

would Ara be ble to post about this? This is would be a
something interesting to discuss. I want to create some new
scales that will accomodate this type of music. This is
something that tuners could workshop.

Justin

Before going too forth on this topic, let me (or my arrogance?)
remind that eastern music traditions (including the Armenian one) do
not differ in tuning, tone system and compositional/improvisational
structure but in performance style.

One who bothers about the Armenian tuning will have to trace back to
the already mentioned classical eastern musicological resources and
compare them with the "real" recordings.

Speaking for the Armenian population in Turkey and their music, there
is nothing diferent about the tone system/tuning and makam structure
than the Turkish one, actually, both of which being integral parts of
the same tradition.

One "modern" yet cited source on Armenian music is "Armenian Folk
Songs, Sirvart Poladian, University of California Press, 1942,
Berkeley and Los Angeles, USA" which some of you may already be
familiar with.

Ertugrul
...who just dropped by and now leaving...

--- In tuning@y..., "justintonation" <JUSTINTONATION@H...> wrote:
> Hello tuners.
>
> I was listeneing to a very beautiful piece of music the other day.
It
> was a trdiinal armenian song called "you are a plane tree" I
> heard it on a classical compliation cd for a radio station in
> Australia. It was sung by a gemale soprano.
>
> I was wondering whether anybody knew about the scales and
> tuning/s used in Armenian music. If any one has any theory on
> how armenian traditional music is constructed that would be
> appreciated immensely too.
>
> Justin

--- In tuning@y..., "ertugrulInanc" <ertugrulinanc@y...> wrote:

> Before going too forth on this topic, let me (or my arrogance?)
> remind that eastern music traditions (including the Armenian one)
do
> not differ in tuning,

just because you haven't detected a difference doesn't mean there
isn't one! kraig grady reports that isolated folk traditions within
the middle eastern world all display their own tuning idiosyncracies,
and with his acute sensitivity to small intervals, he is not one to
engage in idle speculation on these issues! certainly you'd agree
that persian tuning, for example, follows a noticeably different
tuning pattern than egyptian tuning? and that georgian tuning is yet
another animal entirely?

> tone system and compositional/improvisational
> structure but in performance style.
>
> One who bothers about the Armenian tuning will have to trace back
to
> the already mentioned classical eastern musicological resources and
> compare them with the "real" recordings.
>
> Speaking for the Armenian population in Turkey and their music,
there
> is nothing diferent about the tone system/tuning and makam
structure
> than the Turkish one, actually, both of which being integral parts
of
> the same tradition.

are you saying armenia doesn't possess an independent musical
tradition of its own? i'll bounce this one off ara . . . he's
armenian and was a history major at harvard, he might know a little
about this . . .

While agreeing for the need for decorum, I'd like to say that it's
been quite a while since I heard such irresponsible claims made as
those I'm responding to. The only reason I respond strongly is because
the issue is an important one to confront.

EVERYTHING about the tone system, compositional/improvisational
structure, and performance style is of Armenian music is
fundamentally different than that of Turkish music.
One need only state that musical treatises in classical Armenian were
written in the 6th through 8th centuries, well before the world even
knew of a people known as the Turks to understand the absurdity of a
statement claiming there is no difference between the two. Without
delving into the details of cultural ethnogenesis in Anatoila and the
Caucasus, one need only listen to the music of Georgia and Armenia to
understand their fundamental difference from the Turkish or Ottoman
counterpart.

The only area in which the claim below might make any sense is in
reference to the music of some urban dwelling armenians during the
19th century, which by itself is not considered the armenian musical
tradition, but an odd offshoot of Ottoman music blending some
armenian elements. These armenians had more or less assimilated into
what was a multi-ethnic empire at the time (the Ottoman Empire). So,
you find armenian songs which employ the oud (a typically non-
armenian instrument), while keeping the intonational basis of Ottoman
music (which was the "norm", one would presume). Besides this fringe
element, the majority armenian music is not based on the maqam
(armenia and georgia are probably the only exceptions in the region),
nor does it employ the rhythmic or melodic shapes of Ottoman music,
or Turkish music (I can discuss the difference between the two with
anyone who cares enough, but seeing as this post is already fairly
long, I'll leave it at that.)

Armenian music, to put it briefly, has a tradition of choral singing
that has been documented since the 6th century, employing mostly
duophany. According to the scholarship I'm familiar with, the
intonational tendencies are, along with the ornamentation guidelines,
still awaiting the unraveling of the neumatic system in which they
were written, the deciphering of which is still the main
preoccupation of musicologists in Yerevan, Armenia to this day.

The folk music is simpler than that of the neighboring Georgian
tradition. A characteristic element is probably the lowered second
degree, (also used by georgians), which I've heard sung in various
intonational hues.
One of my current projects is (after getting FTS to finally respond!)
to make a small catalogue of tunings used in both georgian and
armenian music.

Except for the neumatic notation of the choral tradition, I doubt
very much that musicians ever bothered to decide the exact tuning.
Remember, the "dark ages" of armenian culture began roughly in the
13th century, and it's been more or less downhill from there (except
in certain areas), so during the time when Ottoman , Persian and
Western court music elevated the general level of musical studies
(such as clearly defining intonational tendencies, etc.), Armenians
(and Georgians intermittantly) were living under occupation (until
our own century) and thus did not experience a development of musical
studies and scholarship.

I've asked musicians about intonation issues (including the most
respected), and their usual answer is that the ear dictates whether
something is "good". The question, as one of them put it, is not
whether I'm hitting "the" right pitch, but "a" right one which feels
right right now (redundancy of "right" purely accidental).

Having said that, I do have a text which was written in the 1800's in
Istanbul, which does show some ratios in the appendix. I can look
those up and pass them on to the group if there is interest.

and Justin in Australia, I'd be happy to send you some more
information about the tetrachordal scale structure of Armenian music,
tas well as some recordings which you may be able to find.

And, by the way, similarly rediculous claims are made today about
Kurdish music. A minority, mind you, which does not have the right to
teach its own language in Turkey. No wonder it's important to tell
unsuspecting westerners that they are, after all, just an extension
of "us".

> remind that eastern music traditions (including the Armenian one)
do not differ in tuning, tone system and
compositional/improvisational structure but in performance style.
>
> One who bothers about the Armenian tuning will have to trace back
to
> the already mentioned classical eastern musicological resources and
> compare them with the "real" recordings.
>
> Speaking for the Armenian population in Turkey and their music,
there
> is nothing diferent about the tone system/tuning and makam
structure
> than the Turkish one, actually, both of which being integral parts
of
> the same tradition.
>
> One "modern" yet cited source on Armenian music is "Armenian Folk
> Songs, Sirvart Poladian, University of California Press, 1942,
> Berkeley and Los Angeles, USA" which some of you may already be
> familiar with.
>
> Ertugrul
> ...who just dropped by and now leaving...
>
>
> --- In tuning@y..., "justintonation" <JUSTINTONATION@H...> wrote:
> > Hello tuners.
> >
> > I was listeneing to a very beautiful piece of music the other
day.
> It > >
> > I was wondering whether anybody knew about the scales and
> > tuning/s used in Armenian music. If any one has any theory on
> > how armenian traditional music is constructed that would be
> > appreciated immensely too.

> > was a trdiinal armenian song called "you are a plane tree" I
> > heard it on a classical compliation cd for a radio station in
> > Australia. It was sung by a gemale soprano.
> >
> > Justin

--- In tuning@y..., "emotionaljourney22" <paul@s...> wrote:
> are you saying armenia doesn't possess an independent musical
> tradition of its own?

No.
 

--- In tuning@y..., "asarkiss" <asarkiss@y...> wrote:

Mr./Ms. "asarkiss",

I did not post my message in question for racist polemiques on ethnic
or historical isues, which are completely off topic in a music
related discussion group. My point is totally misunderstood while it
can be clearly comprehended in terms of pure artistic view, not
polluted with such kind of racistically preconditioned mind.

I will not continue quarelling with you or others. I have much music
to do...

However, I have to reply to two points in the shortest possible way,
not to exploit the valuable bandwidth of this groups members:

You claim:

"One need only state that musical treatises in classical Armenian
were written in the 6th through 8th centuries, well before the world
even knew of a people known as the Turks" bla bla.

While I have no objection to a 6th century Armenian musicological
treatise, I have to note "for the record" that the people I belong
to, speaking the language I speak, have left their written traces as
early as 5th c. BC. The name "Turk" was first used in the 6th c. AD.

This is no competition but you'll need to learn more before shouting
out your racist insults.

You still claim about Kurds to be:

"A minority, mind you, which does not have the right to
teach its own language in Turkey."

I'm not responsible for the acts of totalitarian governments
prohibiting Kurdish education, although they let Armenian, Greek,
Hebrew; besides English, French, German, Italian, Latin and several
other western languages. Among intellectuals, you would barely find
more than a couple people pro this kind of policy. The same
government also bans female people who cover their heads as a
religious order from -literally- getting inside the university. Just
a month ago, tey chased back half of the audience from
our "University Choir" concert, which was announced on this group.

However, Kurdish is in one or other way taught and extensively
spoken. I'm happy to learn and try to speak it on occassion. So am I
with meeting a top quality Kurdish musician, who's also one of my
best colleagues, at least three times a week and making music. I'm
also happy with my best neighbours, a Kurdish family, and playing
with their lovely little 2yo kid, "accompanying" her pure and
innocent singing, completely unaware of racisme and nationalisme
garbage.

I was happy for having a good Armenian schoolmate for 7 years, whose
rememberance is still fresh in my mind and heart.

I'm happier than ever for having been under the sufi training of a
Kurdish sheikh for the last eight precious years of my life.

We, good people here, do not mark each other with ethnic identities.
Nobody is "extension" of nobody.

Now back to making music with my group of several Turks, a Kurd, a
couple of Bosnian-descendants; occassionally an Arab and a Gypsie.

Regards, regarding your humanity.

Ertugrul

PS: Sorry for having to write out this off topic article, which shall
not be continued.

I won't be expresing my ideas on this group anymore. You (anybody)
are welcome for private contact at <ertugrulinanc-at-ixir-dot-com>,
not at this very address, which is a spam trap.
 

This will be my last post on this topic, but to respond...

There were no "racist insults" in my post. I was merely responding
to the baselessness of the statement that intonational, melodic and
other aspects of armenian music "were in no way different" than
others in the area, and that these accusations are made all too often.
As I said in my original post, the only reason I felt the need to
respond strongly is because this is not the first time that these
claims have been made, and I am, unfortunately, certain that they
will continue to be made unless they are corrected.

I myself have a kurdish and two turkish friends with whom I discuss
all this issues now and then. Any racism which you accuse me of is,
once again, baseless.

As to the competition of who was where earlier, my statement was to
the fact what while the migrations from the east which eventually
culminated in the large scale settlement of altaic speakers in
anatolia (AND THE IMPORT, WITH THEM, OF INTONATIONAL SYSTEMS)had
still not been completed, armenians and georgians already had their
own systems of music. Thus, to imply that the only difference is one
of performace style is difficult to understand given those historical
facts. I was referring to established units in anatolia, not "whose
people are older". I agree that the latter is a meaningless waste of
time.

Indeed, there is no competetion, and indeed music should be bridging
the difficulties some civilizations have among one another. However,
cultural identity cannot be swept aside by mere generalizations, such
as "they are the same except for performance practice", which is
the exact issue I was refuting.

People like ourselves should be finding ways of bridging gaps through
music. Perhaps sometimes and intitial conversation is thorny, since
the inherited situation is thorny to begin with. My hope is to make
bridge gaps, not expand them. I do believe, however, that certain
misstatements require a strong response.

I take charges of racism seriously, and would invite you to dinner
with other turkish friends if you lived in boston. If you read my
post again, you will notice that I was refuting a general tendency,
not a people or a culture.

Regards back to your humanity.

--- In tuning@y..., "ertugrulInanc" <ertugrulinanc@y...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "asarkiss" <asarkiss@y...> wrote:
>
> Mr./Ms. "asarkiss",
>
> I did not post my message in question for racist polemiques on
ethnic
> or historical isues, which are completely off topic in a music
> related discussion group. My point is totally misunderstood while
it
> can be clearly comprehended in terms of pure artistic view, not
> polluted with such kind of racistically preconditioned mind.
>
> I will not continue quarelling with you or others. I have much
music
> to do...
>
> However, I have to reply to two points in the shortest possible
way,
> not to exploit the valuable bandwidth of this groups members:
>
> You claim:
>
> "One need only state that musical treatises in classical Armenian
> were written in the 6th through 8th centuries, well before the
world
> even knew of a people known as the Turks" bla bla.
>
> While I have no objection to a 6th century Armenian musicological
> treatise, I have to note "for the record" that the people I belong
> to, speaking the language I speak, have left their written traces
as
> early as 5th c. BC. The name "Turk" was first used in the 6th c. AD.
>
> This is no competition but you'll need to learn more before
shouting
> out your racist insults.
>
> You still claim about Kurds to be:
>
> "A minority, mind you, which does not have the right to
> teach its own language in Turkey."
>
> I'm not responsible for the acts of totalitarian governments
> prohibiting Kurdish education, although they let Armenian, Greek,
> Hebrew; besides English, French, German, Italian, Latin and several
> other western languages. Among intellectuals, you would barely find
> more than a couple people pro this kind of policy. The same
> government also bans female people who cover their heads as a
> religious order from -literally- getting inside the university.
Just
> a month ago, tey chased back half of the audience from
> our "University Choir" concert, which was announced on this group.
>
> However, Kurdish is in one or other way taught and extensively
> spoken. I'm happy to learn and try to speak it on occassion. So am
I
> with meeting a top quality Kurdish musician, who's also one of my
> best colleagues, at least three times a week and making music. I'm
> also happy with my best neighbours, a Kurdish family, and playing
> with their lovely little 2yo kid, "accompanying" her pure and
> innocent singing, completely unaware of racisme and nationalisme
> garbage.
>
> I was happy for having a good Armenian schoolmate for 7 years,
whose
> rememberance is still fresh in my mind and heart.
>
> I'm happier than ever for having been under the sufi training of a
> Kurdish sheikh for the last eight precious years of my life.
>
> We, good people here, do not mark each other with ethnic
identities.
> Nobody is "extension" of nobody.
>
> Now back to making music with my group of several Turks, a Kurd, a
> couple of Bosnian-descendants; occassionally an Arab and a Gypsie.
>
> Regards, regarding your humanity.
>
> Ertugrul
>
>
> PS: Sorry for having to write out this off topic article, which
shall
> not be continued.
>
> I won't be expresing my ideas on this group anymore. You (anybody)
> are welcome for private contact at <ertugrulinanc-at-ixir-dot-com>,
> not at this very address, which is a spam trap.
>