Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning scala chromatic clavier???

i peeked onto makemicromusic and the new rage is the scala chromatic
clavier! sounds like it could be a tool of immense importance for a
great many of the discussions on this list.

manuel, why don't you introduce this to us! i, for one, had never
heard of it!

and thanks manuel, for your extraordinary work in compiling a tuning
discography, bibliography, and best of all, an outstanding software
package! we love you!!

🔗Dante Rosati <dante.interport@rcn.com>

dont forget the "tonality diamond" and the "triad player", they're just as
useful as the chromatic clavier! and I heartily second the thanks to Manuel!

Dante

> -----Original Message-----
> From: emotionaljourney22 [mailto:paul@stretch-music.com]
> Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 5:34 AM
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [tuning] scala chromatic clavier???
>
>
> i peeked onto makemicromusic and the new rage is the scala chromatic
> clavier! sounds like it could be a tool of immense importance for a
> great many of the discussions on this list.
>
> manuel, why don't you introduce this to us! i, for one, had never
> heard of it!
>
> and thanks manuel, for your extraordinary work in compiling a tuning
> discography, bibliography, and best of all, an outstanding software
> package! we love you!!
>

🔗jpehrson2 <jpehrson@rcn.com>

--- In tuning@y..., "emotionaljourney22" <paul@s...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_36273.html#36273

> i peeked onto makemicromusic and the new rage is the scala
chromatic
> clavier! sounds like it could be a tool of immense importance for a
> great many of the discussions on this list.
>
> manuel, why don't you introduce this to us! i, for one, had never
> heard of it!
>
> and thanks manuel, for your extraordinary work in compiling a
tuning
> discography, bibliography, and best of all, an outstanding software
> package! we love you!!

***Thank, Paul, for reminding me about this, and it makes it
worthwhile to upgrade to SCALA 2.5 from 2.4.

However, of course, the *pitch names* in the window are not
accurate. That would be, most certainly, a *very* complex
programming task! And, even if *that* wasn't so difficult, the
concept of coming up with Ascii accidentals for the "entire universe"
of microtonal tunings is daunting, as we have discovered on this very
list with some of George Secor's exchanges...

For example, SCALA 2.5 finds a nice "diatonic collection" of
C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C in my Blackjack scale, where we *know* the only
diatonic notes are C, G, D, A!

🔗manuel.op.de.coul@eon-benelux.com

Joseph wrote:

>However, of course, the *pitch names* in the window are not
>accurate.

Wait, I think you missed an important feature here, the selection
of the notation system. Hmm, I wonder why this isn't obvious?

>That would be, most certainly, a *very* complex
>programming task! And, even if *that* wasn't so difficult, the
>concept of coming up with Ascii accidentals for the "entire universe"
>of microtonal tunings is daunting, as we have discovered on this very
>list with some of George Secor's exchanges...

Yes, it was quite a bit of programming, while not for the "entire
universe", still a big portion of it. Perhaps this work is
interesting for George Secor to have a look at too, albeit the
approach is different.

>For example, SCALA 2.5 finds a nice "diatonic collection" of
>C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C in my Blackjack scale, where we *know* the only
>diatonic notes are C, G, D, A!

Did you still have notation system E12 selected? The point is
you should select a system that suits the scale. So for example
for the Bohlen-Pierce scale, you use BP; for Indian scales, you
use I22 and for Blackjack you can choose among B72, E72, M72 or
others.
Oh, it's still 2.05.

Manuel

🔗jpehrson2 <jpehrson@rcn.com>

--- In tuning@y..., manuel.op.de.coul@e... wrote:

/tuning/topicId_36273.html#36305

> Joseph wrote:
>
> >However, of course, the *pitch names* in the window are not
> >accurate.
>
> Wait, I think you missed an important feature here, the selection
> of the notation system. Hmm, I wonder why this isn't obvious?
>
> >That would be, most certainly, a *very* complex
> >programming task! And, even if *that* wasn't so difficult, the
> >concept of coming up with Ascii accidentals for the "entire
universe"
> >of microtonal tunings is daunting, as we have discovered on this
very
> >list with some of George Secor's exchanges...
>
> Yes, it was quite a bit of programming, while not for the "entire
> universe", still a big portion of it. Perhaps this work is
> interesting for George Secor to have a look at too, albeit the
> approach is different.
>
> >For example, SCALA 2.5 finds a nice "diatonic collection" of
> >C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C in my Blackjack scale, where we *know* the only
> >diatonic notes are C, G, D, A!
>
> Did you still have notation system E12 selected? The point is
> you should select a system that suits the scale. So for example
> for the Bohlen-Pierce scale, you use BP; for Indian scales, you
> use I22 and for Blackjack you can choose among B72, E72, M72 or
> others.
> Oh, it's still 2.05.
>
> Manuel

***Thanks, Manuel, for pointing out this feature. Obviously, I
wasn't using this! :)

I'll check it out. Thanks for the pointer!

🔗jpehrson2 <jpehrson@rcn.com>

--- In tuning@y..., manuel.op.de.coul@e... wrote:

/tuning/topicId_36273.html#36305

***Hello Manuel!

Well, sorry about that. I guess it *should* have been obvious. I
guess I was a bit "mermerized" by the graphics and the "relatively"
fine print of the "choose notation system" down below was missed on
my first attempt.

I hope nobody *else* has that problem! Probably it was just *me* but
probably it would be even better if something "popped up" and
said "choose notation system" but it's probably not necessary.

Maybe nobody else will have that "problem," hopefully.

Of course, the 72-tET system you use is not our "standard" ASCII
system for 72 that we've "slaved over" on this list, but we can
hardly expect the entire *world* to conform to *that!* :)

Congrats on the new enhancements, which now I have *properly* tried
out!

best,

Joseph

🔗emotionaljourney22 <paul@stretch-music.com>

--- In tuning@y..., "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "emotionaljourney22" <paul@s...> wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_36273.html#36273
>
> > i peeked onto makemicromusic and the new rage is the scala
> chromatic
> > clavier! sounds like it could be a tool of immense importance for
a
> > great many of the discussions on this list.
> >
> > manuel, why don't you introduce this to us! i, for one, had never
> > heard of it!
> >
> > and thanks manuel, for your extraordinary work in compiling a
> tuning
> > discography, bibliography, and best of all, an outstanding
software
> > package! we love you!!
>
>
> ***Thank, Paul, for reminding me about this, and it makes it
> worthwhile to upgrade to SCALA 2.5 from 2.4.
>
> However, of course, the *pitch names* in the window are not
> accurate. That would be, most certainly, a *very* complex
> programming task! And, even if *that* wasn't so difficult, the
> concept of coming up with Ascii accidentals for the "entire
universe"
> of microtonal tunings is daunting, as we have discovered on this
very
> list with some of George Secor's exchanges...
>
> For example, SCALA 2.5 finds a nice "diatonic collection" of
> C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C in my Blackjack scale, where we *know* the only
> diatonic notes are C, G, D, A!
>
> jp

whoops!

manuel,

i suggest you talk with dave keenan -- he may be able to come up with
some feasible programming solutions for you.

sorry, i'm way behind on both lists now . . .

-p

🔗emotionaljourney22 <paul@stretch-music.com>

--- In tuning@y..., manuel.op.de.coul@e... wrote:
> Thanks for all the compliments Paul. Ok, I can write
> something to the list about it.
> By the way, did you see the keyboard configuration
> with 22-tET and your notation P22? Perhaps I should
> make the half-sized blue keys longer?
>
> Manuel

may i ask you a favor?

can you tell me exactly what to install on my computer, and what
commands to enter?

your assistance appreciated.

thanks,
paul

🔗manuel.op.de.coul@eon-benelux.com

Sure, download and install
http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/software/Scala_Setup.exe
Run Scala, type in the main window (the command line is
at the bottom):

equal 22
set notation P22

Then press function key F4. There you can also change the
notation system with the Select button. After that, you
can press the Scale preset button. If you stick with
ETs, you don't need to download the scale archive.
Also try E22 and C22. Select your modes after pressing
the Mode button.
By the way, you can make a noise with the chord list too.
Choose it from the Views menu. Then use the left and
right cursor keys and shift-left and -right to get
inversions.

Manuel

🔗emotionaljourney22 <paul@stretch-music.com>

--- In tuning@y..., manuel.op.de.coul@e... wrote:
> Sure, download and install
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/software/Scala_Setup.exe
> Run Scala, type in the main window (the command line is
> at the bottom):
>
> equal 22
> set notation P22
>
> Then press function key F4.

wow! ok, the vertically-aligned black keys don't give a sense of
increasing pitch -- i'd make them side-by-side instead.

i can play single notes, but how do i play chords?

> Select your modes after pressing
> the Mode button.

i did that -- now i can't even play single notes :(

p.s.

any chance of getting my current (numeral) notation, and/or
conjunction with the rezsutek keyboard layout, implemented?

> By the way, you can make a noise with the chord list too.
> Choose it from the Views menu. Then use the left and
> right cursor keys and shift-left and -right to get
> inversions.

i hit the right cursor key twice and all three scala windows
disappeared. poof! (this is on my new computer, with the latest
operating system and everything) . . .

btw, you may have noticed me referring to the 10+9 mos system in 19-
equal as john negri's system . . . i have a photocopy of a paper
which shows his ideal keyboard layout for it, but i have no idea
where the paper comes from originally . . . do you?

🔗manuel.op.de.coul@eon-benelux.com

>wow! ok, the vertically-aligned black keys don't give a sense of
>increasing pitch -- i'd make them side-by-side instead.

Ok.

>i can play single notes, but how do i play chords?

See the introduction I posted yesterday.

>any chance of getting my current (numeral) notation, and/or
>conjunction with the rezsutek keyboard layout, implemented?

Yeah, could be done. I had set an upper limit of 10 to the
number of white keys per octave, but no harm I think to
increase that to 12.

>i hit the right cursor key twice and all three scala windows
>disappeared. poof! (this is on my new computer, with the latest
>operating system and everything) . . .

O dear. Windows XP? That might reveal a couple of more problems
like it did earlier. In any case I'll make a neat popup window
for these cases since it seems to be happening more frequently.

>btw, you may have noticed me referring to the 10+9 mos system in 19-
>equal as john negri's system . . . i have a photocopy of a paper
>which shows his ideal keyboard layout for it, but i have no idea
>where the paper comes from originally . . . do you?

No idea too. It's not in modenam.par, could you give the steps?
Is this keyboard layout worth implementing?

Manuel

🔗emotionaljourney22 <paul@stretch-music.com>

--- In tuning@y..., manuel.op.de.coul@e... wrote:
> >wow! ok, the vertically-aligned black keys don't give a sense of
> >increasing pitch -- i'd make them side-by-side instead.
>
> Ok.
>
> >i can play single notes, but how do i play chords?
>
> See the introduction I posted yesterday.

oh yeah, i bookmarked that but haven't gotten around to that yet . . .

> >i hit the right cursor key twice and all three scala windows
> >disappeared. poof! (this is on my new computer, with the latest
> >operating system and everything) . . .
>
> O dear. Windows XP?

windows 2000 professional.

> That might reveal a couple of more problems
> like it did earlier. In any case I'll make a neat popup window
> for these cases since it seems to be happening more frequently.
>
> >btw, you may have noticed me referring to the 10+9 mos system in
19-
> >equal as john negri's system . . . i have a photocopy of a paper
> >which shows his ideal keyboard layout for it, but i have no idea
> >where the paper comes from originally . . . do you?
>
> No idea too. It's not in modenam.par, could you give the steps?

it's the 10+9 mos system in 19-equal . . . 10 white + 9 black, or
vice versa. i'll dig up the paper when i get home and see if there's
any unusual notation negri uses too.

> Is this keyboard layout worth implementing?

yes, i think all the reasonable-sized mos's of linear temperaments
we're going to include in our paper (on tuning-math) merit
implementing keyboard layouts. in fact, these keyboard layouts should
be included in the paper itself!

🔗manuel.op.de.coul@eon-benelux.com

> >wow! ok, the vertically-aligned black keys don't give a sense of
> >increasing pitch -- i'd make them side-by-side instead.
>
> Ok.

Oh, I misunderstood. That doesn't fit in the model,
the keys are always split vertically. The possibility
that there are more tones in the scale must be taken
into account. But I think it's a good idea to make the
other ones longer.

>windows 2000 professional.

I have that too, but I can't reproduce it. The next
release will give some info to hopefully give an idea
where to look.

>it's the 10+9 mos system in 19-equal . . . 10 white + 9 black, or
>vice versa. i'll dig up the paper when i get home and see if there's
>any unusual notation negri uses too.

Ok, let us know.

Manuel

🔗manuel.op.de.coul@eon-benelux.com

Joseph wrote:

>Of course, the 72-tET system you use is not our "standard" ASCII
>system for 72 that we've "slaved over" on this list, but we can
>hardly expect the entire *world* to conform to *that!* :)

I think if you familiarize yourself with the other E[n] notation
systems, you will start to appreciate it nevertheless.
They will support "navigating" the equal temperaments
because they show you the relationships of fifths and thirds.
You only need to remember a few basic rules of the notations.
The cycle of fifths is always the familiar Bb F C G E etc.
The best major third is always E\ and the minor third Eb/.
The downward diesis is a (
So the cycle of thirds will begin like this:
C E\ G#\\ C(
because three major thirds is an octave minus a diesis.
The downward diaschisma (which is the diesis minus the syntonic
comma) is v
G#\\ is equivalent to Abv by definition. So the cycle of
thirds begins like
C E\ Abv C( D#^ G/ B etc.
When any of these commas are zero, they can't be used in the
notation system, so if the syntonic comma vanishes for example
you can keep in mind that E and E\ are the same.
If the schisma disappears, then the Pythagorean and syntonic
commas are the same, so that B# and C/ are enharmonically
equivalent. Perhaps you can think of other properties yourself.
So the notations allow you to see how many steps these
important commas are, which is the reason for preferring them
over accidentals which only relate to a single ET.

>Congrats on the new enhancements, which now I have *properly*
>tried out!

Thanks!

Manuel

🔗jpehrson2 <jpehrson@rcn.com>

--- In tuning@y..., manuel.op.de.coul@e... wrote:

/tuning/topicId_36273.html#36331

> Joseph wrote:
>
> >Of course, the 72-tET system you use is not our "standard" ASCII
> >system for 72 that we've "slaved over" on this list, but we can
> >hardly expect the entire *world* to conform to *that!* :)
>
> I think if you familiarize yourself with the other E[n] notation
> systems, you will start to appreciate it nevertheless.
> They will support "navigating" the equal temperaments
> because they show you the relationships of fifths and thirds.
> You only need to remember a few basic rules of the notations.
> The cycle of fifths is always the familiar Bb F C G E etc.
> The best major third is always E\ and the minor third Eb/.
> The downward diesis is a (
> So the cycle of thirds will begin like this:
> C E\ G#\\ C(
> because three major thirds is an octave minus a diesis.
> The downward diaschisma (which is the diesis minus the syntonic
> comma) is v
> G#\\ is equivalent to Abv by definition. So the cycle of
> thirds begins like
> C E\ Abv C( D#^ G/ B etc.
> When any of these commas are zero, they can't be used in the
> notation system, so if the syntonic comma vanishes for example
> you can keep in mind that E and E\ are the same.
> If the schisma disappears, then the Pythagorean and syntonic
> commas are the same, so that B# and C/ are enharmonically
> equivalent. Perhaps you can think of other properties yourself.
> So the notations allow you to see how many steps these
> important commas are, which is the reason for preferring them
> over accidentals which only relate to a single ET.
>

***Thanks, Manuel, for explaining this to me. Actually, it makes a
lot of sense, and is not all that difficult, so I look forward to
going through some of the scales with the "Chromatic Klavier" from
that perspective!

best,

Joseph

🔗emotionaljourney22 <paul@stretch-music.com>

--- In tuning@y..., manuel.op.de.coul@e... wrote:

> >btw, you may have noticed me referring to the 10+9 mos system in
19-
> >equal as john negri's system . . . i have a photocopy of a paper
> >which shows his ideal keyboard layout for it, but i have no idea
> >where the paper comes from originally . . . do you?
>
> No idea too.

i found it -- look up from the bottom of:

http://www.tiac.net/users/xen/interval/tables-of-contents.html

now i see it's in your bibliography!!!

Negri, John. "The Nineteen-Tone System as Ten Plus Nine", Interval
vol. 5 no. 3, winter 1986-1987, pp. 11-13.

negri uses the letters A through K ("I" is omitted) as his 10-note
white-key scale. there's a black key between every pair of white
keys, except between K and A. he uses standard sharp and flat symbols
to name the black keys (A# = Bb, H# = Jb, etc.).

hope you'll implement this in scala (and fix the bugs)!

thanks again for all your fine work on scala -- you deserve a medal.

🔗manuel.op.de.coul@eon-benelux.com

Paul wrote:
>negri uses the letters A through K ("I" is omitted) as his 10-note
>white-key scale. there's a black key between every pair of white
>keys, except between K and A. he uses standard sharp and flat symbols
>to name the black keys (A# = Bb, H# = Jb, etc.).

>hope you'll implement this in scala (and fix the bugs)!

Yes, I'll do. The name will be N19.
I did your numerical notation too: N22. However the Reszutek
keyboard is too cumbersome, because the naturals are on the
black keys, and the key allotment algorithm isn't designed to
do that. So I made another design for it, which I think is
better because it's more compact. Twelve white keys is an
awful lot. Imagine this on a real keyboard, not everyone has
the hands of Liszt!

Manuel

🔗emotionaljourney22 <paul@stretch-music.com>

--- In tuning@y..., manuel.op.de.coul@e... wrote:

> However the Reszutek
> keyboard is too cumbersome, because the naturals are on the
> black keys, and the key allotment algorithm isn't designed to
> do that. So I made another design for it, which I think is
> better because it's more compact. Twelve white keys is an
> awful lot. Imagine this on a real keyboard, not everyone has
> the hands of Liszt!

actually, ara and i use the twelve white keys plus two more, since
we're actually using a standard keyboard and ignoring the "E"s. sure,
you can't reach more than a 3:2 with one hand, but take a look at
partch's chromelodeon as a comparison!

🔗emotionaljourney22 <paul@stretch-music.com>

--- In tuning@y..., "emotionaljourney22" <paul@s...> wrote:

> > By the way, you can make a noise with the chord list too.
> > Choose it from the Views menu. Then use the left and
> > right cursor keys and shift-left and -right to get
> > inversions.
>
> i hit the right cursor key twice and all three scala windows
> disappeared. poof! (this is on my new computer, with the latest
> operating system and everything) . . .

i got your new version, manuel (thanks for e-mailing me about it),
and when i pull up the chord list, i get a single organ tone that
won't go away! my co-workers are going nuts . . . when i close the
chord list, the tone goes away . . .

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@juno.com>

--- In tuning@y..., "emotionaljourney22" <paul@s...> wrote:

> actually, ara and i use the twelve white keys plus two more, since
> we're actually using a standard keyboard and ignoring the "E"s. sure,
> you can't reach more than a 3:2 with one hand, but take a look at
> partch's chromelodeon as a comparison!

Are there such things as high-quality kiddie keyboards available, with smaller keys?

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@lumma.org>

Gene wrote...
>Are there such things as high-quality kiddie keyboards available,
>with smaller keys?

Do you want acoustic? There must be midi controllers with narrower
keys that would be as high-quality as any other midi controller.

If you do want acoustic, I'm not sure. My accordion has narrow
keys, and tiny buttons.

These folks make narrower keyboards for grand pianos:

www.dskeyboards.com

Actually, I see their site is down, and google doesn't even have
it in the cache, so maybe they're out of business... Their product
was expensive, but amazingly good.

Back to midi, if you want a beehive keyboard, I recently posted
this, which has a very narrow octave:

http://www.chromatic-keyboard.com/