AMAZING, INCREDIBLE! (Sibelius)

Here is a note I got from Daniel at Sibelius, regarding my request
for 72-tET symbols!:

Re: Sib. 2: a modest proposal (microtonality)
Posted by Daniel at Sibelius - 10 Mar 15:19

We're aware of the symbols used by Ezra Sims and we've got them
listed as a possible future feature for the software.

!!!

Sure hope this happens!

jp

> From: jpehrson2 <jpehrson@rcn.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 7:55 AM
> Subject: [tuning] AMAZING, INCREDIBLE! (Sibelius)
>
>
> Here is a note I got from Daniel at Sibelius, regarding my request
> for 72-tET symbols!:
>
> Re: Sib. 2: a modest proposal (microtonality)
> Posted by Daniel at Sibelius - 10 Mar 15:19
>
> We're aware of the symbols used by Ezra Sims and we've got them
> listed as a possible future feature for the software.
>
> !!!
>
> Sure hope this happens!
>
> jp

hmmm ... guess i'd better hurry up and put in a word
for HEWM, if i have any hope of getting that adopted
by the musical world at large. :)

-monz

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--- In tuning@y..., "monz" <joemonz@y...> wrote:
> > From: jpehrson2 <jpehrson@r...>
> > To: <tuning@y...>
> > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 7:55 AM
> > Subject: [tuning] AMAZING, INCREDIBLE! (Sibelius)
> >
> >
> > Here is a note I got from Daniel at Sibelius, regarding my
request
> > for 72-tET symbols!:
> >
> > Re: Sib. 2: a modest proposal (microtonality)
> > Posted by Daniel at Sibelius - 10 Mar 15:19
> >
> > We're aware of the symbols used by Ezra Sims and we've got them
> > listed as a possible future feature for the software.
> >
> > !!!
> >
> > Sure hope this happens!
> >
> > jp
>
>
> hmmm ... guess i'd better hurry up and put in a word
> for HEWM, if i have any hope of getting that adopted
> by the musical world at large. :)
>
>
>
> -monz
>

***Monz, I'm sorry, but I'm afraid that's hopeless.

All *I'm* trying to do is to get the Sibelius people to add *two*
little symbols, the 6th tone and the 12th tone. Even doing that is a
bit Herculean, and my guess is that they will retain their *existing*
quarter tone symbols rather than use Sims for that.

But maybe we could get them to go *that* far...

But an entirely *new* system, with more than just *two* new
microtones?

Very doubtful.

jp

----- Original Message -----
From: "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@rcn.com>

> --- In tuning@y..., "monz" <joemonz@y...> wrote:
> > > From: jpehrson2 <jpehrson@r...>

> > > Here is a note I got from Daniel at Sibelius, regarding my
> request
> > > for 72-tET symbols!:
> > >
> > > Re: Sib. 2: a modest proposal (microtonality)
> > > Posted by Daniel at Sibelius - 10 Mar 15:19
> > >
> > > We're aware of the symbols used by Ezra Sims and we've got them
> > > listed as a possible future feature for the software.
> > >
> > > !!!
> > >
> > > Sure hope this happens!
> > >
> > > jp
> >
> > hmmm ... guess i'd better hurry up and put in a word
> > for HEWM, if i have any hope of getting that adopted
> > by the musical world at large. :)
> >
> > -monz
>
> ***Monz, I'm sorry, but I'm afraid that's hopeless.
>
> All *I'm* trying to do is to get the Sibelius people to add *two*
> little symbols, the 6th tone and the 12th tone. Even doing that is a
> bit Herculean, and my guess is that they will retain their *existing*
> quarter tone symbols rather than use Sims for that.
>
> But maybe we could get them to go *that* far...
>
> But an entirely *new* system, with more than just *two* new
> microtones?

How about an open system where the end user can add their accidentals?

Duh!

* David Beardsley
* http://biink.com
* http://mp3.com/davidbeardsley

--- In tuning@y..., David Beardsley <davidbeardsley@b...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_35422.html#35451

>
> How about an open system where the end user can add their
accidentals?
>
> Duh!
>
>
>
> * David Beardsley
> * http://biink.com
> * http://mp3.com/davidbeardsley

***This is, obviously, a *very* good idea, David! They don't even,
as yet, have a *Draw* program, as I used to have in SCORE, to draw
your own symbols. HOWEVER, one can use any FONT creating program to
do that.

However, they, then come in as *text* and I am of the impression that
you would have to put your *own* pitch bends in, etc.

I meant more specifically, symbols that are in *integral* part of the
program, as quartertones are for them.

You select *quartertones* just as one would select a sharp or flat,
and the playback makes the pitch bend adjustment in the sound card...

best,

jp

----- Original Message -----
From: "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@rcn.com>

> --- In tuning@y..., David Beardsley <davidbeardsley@b...> wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_35422.html#35451
>
> >
> > How about an open system where the end user can add their
> accidentals?
> >
> > Duh!

> ***This is, obviously, a *very* good idea, David!

The mind of a software developer. ;)

>They don't even,
> as yet, have a *Draw* program, as I used to have in SCORE, to draw
> your own symbols. HOWEVER, one can use any FONT creating program to
> do that.

Wow! Score - I've seen that program. Guitar World/Guitar School/Guitar World
Acoustic
used that program until the "engraver" left for a new career in computer
programing. Poor guy would enter everything by hand and and had all sorts of
carptal tunnel syndrome problems. I'm not sure computer programing
was a great choice for someone who has hand problems,
but at least he makes more money.

A real memory hog too. I remember having problems getting
the mouse to work because the mouse driver was too big!
It seems the problem was that Score was ported down from
a mini-computer - it wasn't written for the PC.

> However, they, then come in as *text* and I am of the impression that
> you would have to put your *own* pitch bends in, etc.
>
> I meant more specifically, symbols that are in *integral* part of the
> program, as quartertones are for them.

So you should be able to click on the accidental and open
a properties dialog box to change how the accidental works.

After all, it should work like a Windows program! Ha!

> You select *quartertones* just as one would select a sharp or flat,
> and the playback makes the pitch bend adjustment in the sound card...

Another option would be for the user to be able to import a graphic
as an accidental.

* David Beardsley
* http://biink.com
* http://mp3.com/davidbeardsley

--- In tuning@y..., David Beardsley <davidbeardsley@b...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_35422.html#35455

> >They don't even,
> > as yet, have a *Draw* program, as I used to have in SCORE, to draw
> > your own symbols. HOWEVER, one can use any FONT creating program
to
> > do that.
>
> Wow! Score - I've seen that program. Guitar World/Guitar
School/Guitar World Acoustic used that program until the "engraver"
left for a new career in computer programing. Poor guy would enter
everything by hand and and had all sorts of carptal tunnel syndrome
problems. I'm not sure computer programing was a great choice for
someone who has hand problems, but at least he makes more money.
>

***I used SCORE for at least 10 years. Did big pieces on it too...
orchestral, etc. It's a *very* specific program; it will do about
*anything* on the graphic end.

However, it's still a DOS program! Leland Smith, who created it,
never figured out how to get it into Windows. Now its time has
certainly passed. It's a sad story.

> A real memory hog too. I remember having problems getting
> the mouse to work because the mouse driver was too big!
> It seems the problem was that Score was ported down from
> a mini-computer - it wasn't written for the PC.
>

***This is correct. It was written for a mini-computer, and has a
long history. It's still in DOS and the MIDI playback, what little
there *is* of it is pathetic.

> > However, they, then come in as *text* and I am of the impression
that you would have to put your *own* pitch bends in, etc.
> >
> > I meant more specifically, symbols that are in *integral* part of
the program, as quartertones are for them.
>
> So you should be able to click on the accidental and open
> a properties dialog box to change how the accidental works.
>
> After all, it should work like a Windows program! Ha!
>

***Well, Sibelius doesn't seem to work that way, alas. One can put
the Ted Mook symbols in, but it seems that it's difficult to get them
to play back correctly. There *supposedly* is a plug in that makes
the *quartertones* play back correctly, but I tried that and even
that didn't seem to be working.

Oh well, I just complained on the Sibelius "chat room." Maybe
someday...

Joseph Pehrson

> From: jpehrson2 <jpehrson@rcn.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 3:20 PM
> Subject: [tuning] Re: AMAZING, INCREDIBLE! (Sibelius)
>
>
> --- In tuning@y..., "monz" <joemonz@y...> wrote:
> > > From: jpehrson2 <jpehrson@r...>
> > > To: <tuning@y...>
> > > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 7:55 AM
> > > Subject: [tuning] AMAZING, INCREDIBLE! (Sibelius)
> > >
> > >
> > > Here is a note I got from Daniel at Sibelius,
> > > regarding my request for 72-tET symbols!:
> > >
> > > Re: Sib. 2: a modest proposal (microtonality)
> > > Posted by Daniel at Sibelius - 10 Mar 15:19
> > >
> > > We're aware of the symbols used by Ezra Sims and we've got them
> > > listed as a possible future feature for the software.
> > >
> > > !!!
> > >
> > > Sure hope this happens!
> > >
> > > jp
> >
> >
> > hmmm ... guess i'd better hurry up and put in a word
> > for HEWM, if i have any hope of getting that adopted
> > by the musical world at large. :)
> >
> >
> >
> > -monz
> >
>
> ***Monz, I'm sorry, but I'm afraid that's hopeless.

i won't give up until i've at least tried!

> All *I'm* trying to do is to get the Sibelius people to add *two*
> little symbols, the 6th tone and the 12th tone. Even doing that is a
> bit Herculean, and my guess is that they will retain their *existing*
> quarter tone symbols rather than use Sims for that.
>
> But maybe we could get them to go *that* far...
>
> But an entirely *new* system, with more than just *two* new
> microtones?
>
> Very doubtful.

but Joe, really, HEWM and the 72edo-standard are not that
different.

what *does* Sibelius already use for quarter-tones?
i wouldn't be surprised if it's something which resembles
the HEWM up/down arrows a lot more than either the
72edo-standard ASCII [ ] or the Sims radical (square-root
sign) based ones.

if the Sibelius quarter-tone symbols do resemble the
up/down arrows, then it's already easier for the
Sibelius people to accomodate the other symbols from
HEWM than from 72edo-standard.

and, just to reiterate, i don't have a problem with
/ and \ in ASCII instead of + and - , which would
bring my HEWM in line with that used by Manuel in Scala.
(altho i'm likely to retain + and - in my emails,
because i still like them best and am used to them.)

-monz

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> From: David Beardsley <davidbeardsley@biink.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 3:26 PM
> Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: AMAZING, INCREDIBLE! (Sibelius)
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@rcn.com>
>
>
> > --- In tuning@y..., "monz" <joemonz@y...> wrote:
> >
> > > hmmm ... guess i'd better hurry up and put in a word
> > > for HEWM, if i have any hope of getting that adopted
> > > by the musical world at large. :)
> > >
> > > -monz
> >
> > ***Monz, I'm sorry, but I'm afraid that's hopeless.
> >
> > All *I'm* trying to do is to get the Sibelius people to add *two*
> > little symbols, the 6th tone and the 12th tone. Even doing that is a
> > bit Herculean, and my guess is that they will retain their *existing*
> > quarter tone symbols rather than use Sims for that.
> >
> > But maybe we could get them to go *that* far...
> >
> > But an entirely *new* system, with more than just *two* new
> > microtones?
>
> How about an open system where the end user can add their accidentals?
>
> Duh!

Finale (by Coda) can already do that.

-monz

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--- In tuning@y..., "monz" <joemonz@y...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_35422.html#35483

>
> but Joe, really, HEWM and the 72edo-standard are not that
> different.
>
> what *does* Sibelius already use for quarter-tones?
> i wouldn't be surprised if it's something which resembles
> the HEWM up/down arrows a lot more than either the
> 72edo-standard ASCII [ ] or the Sims radical (square-root
> sign) based ones.
>

***Well, actually, Monz, they are the "standard" quartertone symbols
that I believe Fokker uses, yes? You know, the sharp with just ONE
vertical line and two cross lines for quarter-sharp and THREE
vertical lines for three-quarters sharp. The flat is just
the "traditional" backwards flat. No arrows anyplace.... Well, I
take that back: they exist as SYMBOLS in the program, but they are
not integrated into the basic interface and playback.

In fact, I had trouble even getting the quartertones to accurately
play back with the program, but I am still *very* new to it, only
having it for a few days now.

>
> and, just to reiterate, i don't have a problem with
> / and \ in ASCII instead of + and - , which would
> bring my HEWM in line with that used by Manuel in Scala.
> (altho i'm likely to retain + and - in my emails,
> because i still like them best and am used to them.)
>
>
***I'm still concerned about the legibility of + and - on a printed
score, and, in fact, it wasn't *me* that brought it up, it was Dave
Keenan...

jp

--- In tuning@y..., "monz" <joemonz@y...> wrote:
> > From: jpehrson2 <jpehrson@r...>
> > To: <tuning@y...>
> > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 3:20 PM
> > Subject: [tuning] Re: AMAZING, INCREDIBLE! (Sibelius)
> >
> >
> > --- In tuning@y..., "monz" <joemonz@y...> wrote:
> > > > From: jpehrson2 <jpehrson@r...>
> > > > To: <tuning@y...>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 7:55 AM
> > > > Subject: [tuning] AMAZING, INCREDIBLE! (Sibelius)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Here is a note I got from Daniel at Sibelius,
> > > > regarding my request for 72-tET symbols!:
> > > >
> > > > Re: Sib. 2: a modest proposal (microtonality)
> > > > Posted by Daniel at Sibelius - 10 Mar 15:19
> > > >
> > > > We're aware of the symbols used by Ezra Sims and we've
got them
> > > > listed as a possible future feature for the software.
> > > >
> > > > !!!
> > > >
> > > > Sure hope this happens!
> > > >
> > > > jp
> > >
> > >
> > > hmmm ... guess i'd better hurry up and put in a word
> > > for HEWM, if i have any hope of getting that adopted
> > > by the musical world at large. :)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -monz
> > >
> >
> > ***Monz, I'm sorry, but I'm afraid that's hopeless.
>
>
> i won't give up until i've at least tried!
>
>
> > All *I'm* trying to do is to get the Sibelius people to add *two*
> > little symbols, the 6th tone and the 12th tone. Even doing that
is a
> > bit Herculean, and my guess is that they will retain their
*existing*
> > quarter tone symbols rather than use Sims for that.
> >
> > But maybe we could get them to go *that* far...
> >
> > But an entirely *new* system, with more than just *two* new
> > microtones?
> >
> > Very doubtful.
>
>
> but Joe, really, HEWM and the 72edo-standard are not that
> different.
>
> what *does* Sibelius already use for quarter-tones?
> i wouldn't be surprised if it's something which resembles
> the HEWM up/down arrows a lot more than either the
> 72edo-standard ASCII [ ] or the Sims radical (square-root
> sign) based ones.
>
> if the Sibelius quarter-tone symbols do resemble the
> up/down arrows, then it's already easier for the
> Sibelius people to accomodate the other symbols from
> HEWM than from 72edo-standard.

i don't see how you can argue for using a ji notation like hewm
for a temperament like 72-equal. 225:224 and 2401:2400 have
to vanish in any reasonable 72-equal notation, but don't in
hewm.

monz, you really mean the monzo 72-equal notation, and this
has nothing to do with helmholtz or ellis, and very little, if
anything, with wolf.

>i won't give up until i've at least tried!

Awesome! What does HEWM stand for?

>what *does* Sibelius already use for quarter-tones?

Wyschnegradsky's (sp?) / Ivor Darreg's one, I believe.

>i wouldn't be surprised if it's something which
>resembles the HEWM

It's the backwards flat, and crew.

-Carl

hey Carl,

> From: Carl Lumma <carl@lumma.org>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 9:56 PM
> Subject: [tuning] Re: Re: AMAZING, INCREDIBLE! (Sibelius)
>
>
> > i won't give up until i've at least tried!
>
> Awesome! What does HEWM stand for?

_H_elmholtz / _E_llis / [Daniel] _W_olf / _M_onzo

haven't you seen this yet?
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/dict/hewm.htm

and BTW, yes, Finale *does* support pitch-bend in
playback of microtonal accidentals. you can create
your own symbols, and then define what effect they'll
have on the pitch in playback.

... but *everything* in Finale is very complicated,
and this is just one more thing that i've never learned
how to do, and so haven't tried it and can't report on
how well it works.

the main reason i never bother to invest the time in
flattening the learning curve on this, is because the
microtonal symbols have to be adjustments from 12edo,
and until only a couple of years ago i was thinking
about microtonality strictly in JI (low-integer RI) terms.
so Finale's method was useless for me.

now that i've thought more about temperaments, perhaps
i'll dig back in and check this out.

-monz

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--- In tuning@y..., "monz" <joemonz@y...> wrote:
> and, just to reiterate, i don't have a problem with
> / and \ in ASCII instead of + and - , which would
> bring my HEWM in line with that used by Manuel in Scala.

Monz!

You've made my day. Now we'll only have two notations instead of 3 for
it (ignoring the minor difference between L7 and <>). And your
Pythagorean-based comma notation won't be confused with Johnston's
5-limit JI based one.

--- In tuning@y..., Carl Lumma <carl@l...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_35422.html#35505

> >i won't give up until i've at least tried!
>
> Awesome! What does HEWM stand for?
>
> >what *does* Sibelius already use for quarter-tones?
>
> Wyschnegradsky's (sp?) / Ivor Darreg's one, I believe.
>
> >i wouldn't be surprised if it's something which
> >resembles the HEWM
>
> It's the backwards flat, and crew.
>
> -Carl

***These are the ones called "Tartini" accidentals, yes?

jp

--- In tuning@y..., "monz" <joemonz@y...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_35422.html#35507

> hey Carl,
>
>
> > From: Carl Lumma <carl@l...>
> > To: <tuning@y...>
> > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 9:56 PM
> > Subject: [tuning] Re: Re: AMAZING, INCREDIBLE! (Sibelius)
> >
> >
> > > i won't give up until i've at least tried!
> >
> > Awesome! What does HEWM stand for?
>
>
> _H_elmholtz / _E_llis / [Daniel] _W_olf / _M_onzo
>
>
> haven't you seen this yet?
> http://www.ixpres.com/interval/dict/hewm.htm
>
>
>
> and BTW, yes, Finale *does* support pitch-bend in
> playback of microtonal accidentals. you can create
> your own symbols, and then define what effect they'll
> have on the pitch in playback.
>
> ... but *everything* in Finale is very complicated,
> and this is just one more thing that i've never learned
> how to do, and so haven't tried it and can't report on
> how well it works.
>

***Thanks so much, Monz, for the tip. Supposedly, one can get
Sibelius to do this too, so I will report back if I can get it to
happen.

The Sibelius interface seems *very* intuitive, for a notation
program, so maybe *these* aspects of it are why it is highly
recommended by a friend who knows *both* Finale and Sibelius well...

jp

Remember Folks that you can programme your own plug ins and write up custom accidentals. I'm sure
some of the boffins on this list could run up what Monz, Joseph and others might want in no time
at all.

Regards

>>> i won't give up until i've at least tried!
>>
>> Awesome! What does HEWM stand for?
>
>
>_H_elmholtz / _E_llis / [Daniel] _W_olf / _M_onzo
>
>haven't you seen this yet?
>http://www.ixpres.com/interval/dict/hewm.htm

No, I hadn't, thanks.

>and BTW, yes, Finale *does* support pitch-bend in
>playback of microtonal accidentals. you can create
>your own symbols, and then define what effect
>they'll have on the pitch in playback.

Really? Since when? I've got version '97 here, I
think.

>... but *everything* in Finale is very complicated,

That was my experience.

-Carl

>>>> i won't give up until i've at least tried!
>>>
>>> Awesome! What does HEWM stand for?
>>
>>
>>_H_elmholtz / _E_llis / [Daniel] _W_olf / _M_onzo
>>
>>haven't you seen this yet?
>>http://www.ixpres.com/interval/dict/hewm.htm
>
>No, I hadn't, thanks.

Do you have a page on "Monzo's 72-edo notation"?

-Carl

> From: Carl Lumma <carl@lumma.org>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 4:26 PM
> Subject: [tuning] Re: Re: Re: AMAZING, INCREDIBLE! (Sibelius)
>
>
> >>>> i won't give up until i've at least tried!
> >>>
> >>> Awesome! What does HEWM stand for?
> >>
> >>
> >>_H_elmholtz / _E_llis / [Daniel] _W_olf / _M_onzo
> >>
> >>haven't you seen this yet?
> >>http://www.ixpres.com/interval/dict/hewm.htm
> >
> >No, I hadn't, thanks.
>
> Do you have a page on "Monzo's 72-edo notation"?
>
> -Carl

http://tonalsoft.com/enc/number/72edo.aspx

pretty predictable, wasn't it? :)

-monz

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