the nutty prof.

I just realized this means, 'acting like Brian McLaren'.

That's great, guys -- insult two people at once.

It's ironic, too, because the stuff Johnny, Dan, and Paul
said to me was pretty much the same stuff Brian said to
me. Maybe I should get the hint.

-Carl

--- In tuning@y..., Carl Lumma <carl@l...> wrote:
> I just realized this means, 'acting like Brian McLaren'. That's
> great, guys -- insult two people at once.

Carl, I'm with you on this one. No need to get insulting just because we aren't all in agreement over what this or that musician can or cannot do. I still think you need to do some serious musical 'soul searching' before you make the same kind of claim, but that doesn't mean you're a jerk!

The way I see it, fine musicians with good ears can find a path to the core of the music, and they'll negotiate the intricacies along the way. Do people who are more familiar with one aspect of music (in this instance, tuning) have maybe a shorter learning curve, or better chance for real grace? I'd say so. Do fine musicians from another general discipline have an inability to cope in the details of intonation? I don't think so, it is just a matter of perspective and focus.

Good musicians are good musicians: all you can do is stack the deck in their favor or against them.

Cheers,
Jon

I will go ahed and stack the deck in Carls "the wonder boy" favor
i had the pleasure of composing,improvising and drinking with Carl on
numerous occaisons
cheers

Pat Pagano, Director
South East Just Intonation Society
http://www.screwmusicforever.com/SHREESWIFT/
----- Original Message -----
From: jonszanto <JSZANTO@ADNC.COM>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 2:39 AM
Subject: [tuning] Re: the nutty prof.

> --- In tuning@y..., Carl Lumma <carl@l...> wrote:
> > I just realized this means, 'acting like Brian McLaren'. That's
> > great, guys -- insult two people at once.
>
> Carl, I'm with you on this one. No need to get insulting just because we
aren't all in agreement over what this or that musician can or cannot do. I
still think you need to do some serious musical 'soul searching' before you
make the same kind of claim, but that doesn't mean you're a jerk!
>
> The way I see it, fine musicians with good ears can find a path to the
core of the music, and they'll negotiate the intricacies along the way. Do
people who are more familiar with one aspect of music (in this instance,
tuning) have maybe a shorter learning curve, or better chance for real
grace? I'd say so. Do fine musicians from another general discipline have an
inability to cope in the details of intonation? I don't think so, it is just
a matter of perspective and focus.
>
> Good musicians are good musicians: all you can do is stack the deck in
their favor or against them.
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - unsubscribe from the tuning group.
> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - put your email message delivery on hold
for the tuning group.
> tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to daily digest
mode.
> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to individual
emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

--- In tuning@y..., "jonszanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_35332.html#35336

> The way I see it, fine musicians with good ears can find a path to
the core of the music, and they'll negotiate the intricacies along
the way. Do people who are more familiar with one aspect of music (in
this instance, tuning) have maybe a shorter learning curve, or better
chance for real grace? I'd say so. Do fine musicians from another
general discipline have an inability to cope in the details of
intonation? I don't think so, it is just a matter of perspective and
focus.
>
> Good musicians are good musicians: all you can do is stack the deck
in their favor or against them.
>

****Hello, Jon!

Actually I'm not specifically answering *your* comment, only using it
as a "general" springboard to jump off into this cesspool...

The majority of professional players, and I mean players in a similar
category to the cellist in Spain who was interested in my stuff, are
interested in and used to adjusting their intonation in the context
of a 12-tET framework. That's pretty self-evident. Now, possibly
string players sometimes play in Pythagorean, as has been asserted on
this list, and possibly singers play in just sometimes, as has also
been claimed. But, for the most part, they are doing it
*unsystematically* by "accident" (or "musicianship" ??) so to speak.

Their basic *aim* is obviously 12-tET. They are not *used* for the
most part, to doing systematic microtonality. This is why I include
an "ear training" CD with my recent pieces, so that players can get
used to playing *at least* the three deviations from 12-tET in 72-tET
of 50 cents, 33 cents and 17 cents.

Even *that* much is a stretch for many of these people.

Johnny Reinhard has told me that *he* would never, personally, use
such a CD for training. Well, why *would* he!? Of *all* people
around, he's spent a *lifetime* of playing alternate tunings, before
many of the "lummmanaries" on this list were even *born* most
probably, so he certainly has no *need* of "training wheels."

But that's because Johnny has *already* been trained! Surely he can
play a 33 cent, 17 cent and 50 cent deviation from 12-tET accurately!

However, Johnny is the *ultimo* example of a specialized
microtonalist, and, I believe, to think the *majority* of fine
players could/would/can play *systematic* microtonality -- and by
that I mean microtonality that's *written out* to be *specific*
deviations from 12-tET or whatever, is a big stretch.

I fear anybody who thinks these guys, even very fine musicians, can
do this accurately would be sorely disappointed...

jp

In a message dated 3/8/02 9:26:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, jpehrson@rcn.com
writes:

> However, Johnny is the *ultimo* example of a specialized
> microtonalist, and, I believe, to think the *majority* of fine
> players could/would/can play *systematic* microtonality -- and by
> that I mean microtonality that's *written out* to be *specific*
> deviations from 12-tET or whatever, is a big stretch.
>
> I fear anybody who thinks these guys, even very fine musicians, can
> do this accurately would be sorely disappointed...
>
> jp
>

Giuseppe, I'm sorely disappointed on this List plenty of times, as in life.
But you have written off "very fine musicians" unfairly. The evidence is
before your very ears, every time the AFMM does a large piece like the Ives
"Unanswered Question" in Pythagorean tuning. While I didn't conduct, I
played with the orchestra and trained the players in this and other tunings
for the audience. If even ONE of the string players was off, THEN you and
everyone else would take notices. If the 6 violins were not in perfect
unison, you would know it. I had given out cents deviations to each player
and there were the proverbial 3 rehearsals. Man, everything was beautifully
in tune, time and time again, with me working with "very fine musicians." It
always helps to have an Eggar, Solberg, Bolotowsky, Catler, etc. around to
help the "very fine musicians" in their transitions to the microtonal
aesthetics desired. But it always works.

JP: I guess the question is whether players *should* be trying
to "adjust" 72-tET *toward* Just as an *intention* or whether they
should be trying for *accurate* 6th tones and 12th tones.

JR: Excellent point. It is best for the composer to compose some prose for
explaining the desired harmonies.

JP: Or is the distinction again the *3 Penny Opera* perhaps too little to
really worry about??

JR: This is the most troublesome thing to me in the recent postings, that
music lovers that cannot negotiate 3 cents or less convincingly to themselves
believe this is not possible of anybody else.

As I have been trying to get certain concepts across, albeit with difficulty,
this may be more to taste. Imagine that before anyone could hear a single
cent interval, one would have to hold a single pitch signal without waver.
This means no vibrato, no dips, no increase or decrease, just straight tone.
As a bassoonist I have done this since conservatory. It comes with a
particular kind of trained breathing that allows for a steady pressure of air
that is pressed behind the tongue. The tongue lets the air through the reed
in even, steady flow. Playing into a Korg Tuner shows an unmoving needle.

This is a hurdle most people on this list may have difficulty imagining for
themselves. But I can assure y'all it doesn't happen ONLY on a bassoon, or
only a bassoon in my hands. There is some serious myopia on this list
regarding microtonal orchestration.

Since working with Harry Partch's music I have honed my voice for maximum
value in his music. I can now hold a single vocal sound that does not move
with GREAT care and a receptive environment. What I want to share is the
answer to Patrick's question about being able to hear better than a cent.

The reason I believe I can hold a single pitch vocally is because I have
demonstrated this to people all over the world, and everyone hears what I am
hearing. People can tell if there is a calm, still, thin vocal tone. Now
what I do next is vocalize a Perfect Fifth from the overtone series, grabbing
it first from the harmonics of human voice (as in hoomi chanting). I etch an
ascending interval in the air to mutual satisfaction, and then sing the equal
tempered fifth down to the very same fundamental as the first fifth.

This is a melodic technique, which is helpful in the Li Po songs. Sometimes
I have a simultaneity with the viola, but there is a note that proceeds it
which I have no way to find. I can learn the interval to the simultaneity
and in effect, find that first unrelated note. What I can then do is isolate
the 2 highest pitches, which just less than 2 cents away from each other. To
total mutual satisfaction, I have been able to lay a single pitch frequency
in between the 2 cent interval, leaving 3 increments of just under a cent
each (though "basically" a cent each). A mathematician on the list will be
able to give the frequency differences hear (except for the bisecting tone),
but I prefer to think it through cents.

When I was in Winnipeg performing Partch with Critical Band, we did a radio
show in a restaurant. John Gzowski asked me to do this demonstration on the
radio. Mutual satisfaction. (though he did say right afterwards to get
those oscilloscopes and begin the analysis, or some such). The Catlers heard
it, Wendy Carlos (who hears as well as I do). When I do the 3 cent scale,
people don't seem to be able to tell direction and hear basically movement.
Most importantly, this is self-taught. I think MANY of y'all could learn
ways to improve your ears. This is the best away to understand most fully
the materials ya'll are working with. If the composer hears it, then its
easy to demonstrate. If the composer cannot hear it, their cover is blown in
the minds of the musicians. If you pay them well they'll give you their
best. But if you tell them exactly what to play you have the best chance of
getting the optimum in the music. If you make to many new symbols they are
likely to get confused and frustrated. Maybe this is a most important
microtonal technique. Good luck to you all in your explorations.

Best, Johnny Reinhard

--- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:

/tuning/topicId_35332.html#35393

***Thanks so much, Johnny, for your valuable and PRACTICAL update
about performance!

This was even *more* than "a penny for your thoughts" and I
appreciate it!

jp