Re: [tuning] Re: 72-tone Notation revisited.JP

From Joe Pehrson:
***Hi Johnny!

Well, as I mentioned, I would be more than happy to write cents
values above the notes of the Sims/Maneri 72-tET notation for you.

But, it seems a little silly, since there are only *three* numbers:
50, 33 and 17... just repeating over and over.

Johnny: Well, Joe, as you are repeating yourself in saying this, you might as well repeat it in cents.

JP: Particularly for the quarter-tones at 50 cents. I'm sure people have
played quarter-tones on AFMM concerts over the years without having
50 cents written every time...

Johnny: You are misrepresenting me, Joe. I have always suggested basic quartertone notation so that there would be no need for numbers over 49 above the noteheads.

JP: I note that you are a bit flexible on the idea of *template* notation
in *some* limited instances, so not *everything* on AFMM concerts is
*always* in cents.

JR: template? What do you mean?

JP: Basically, as I believe Paul Erlich has mentioned before, 72-tET is essentially "training wheels" notation for the full 1200-tET continuum.

JR: Many music educators make the same argument for teaching staff lines by the phrase "every good boy does fine." This is a disaster as it doesn't allow for genuine staff reading. How many on this List suggest teaching "every good boy does fine" as training wheels for reading music?

JP: There's a difference, too, in the kinds of people we are working with. *You* have a cadre of *specialists.* They can play *anything*
and this has been proven. Many can *easily* play 1200-tET to close to 1 cent accuracy.

JR: When I contract an orchestra it is for the best musicians, not for "specialists." My best musicians become specialists over several years time.

JP: However, *I'm* more interested, at the moment, in
approaching "traditional" players who have never worked in microtonality.

JR: Every musician is a traditional player before becoming a specialist, myself included. You have become a microtonalist because of someone's intervention. :)

JP: I don't think they can *do* 1200-tET at this stage.
Getting them to just do 50 cent, 33 cent and 17 cent deviations is *enough* for *my* expectations at the moment...

JR: If they are reading any notation accurately they are playing cents relationships anyway. Why not go to the heart of the matter? 72-notation, as with most any other is like writing for a village. Cents opens it up to the universe of music. That is exactly why it was invented by Ellis, to put all musics on the same page.

JP: But will happily "write them in" for you if necessary! best, Joseph

JR: As I'm not playing them it is not sweat off my brow. I hope that Julie picks up on the notation as easily as everyone thinks she will. Cents would have been easier for her.

best, Johnny

--- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:

/tuning/topicId_35102.html#35102

> Well, as I mentioned, I would be more than happy to write cents
> values above the notes of the Sims/Maneri 72-tET notation for you.
>
> But, it seems a little silly, since there are only *three*
numbers: 50, 33 and 17... just repeating over and over.
>
> Johnny: Well, Joe, as you are repeating yourself in saying this,
you might as well repeat it in cents.
>

***Hey Johnny! That's pretty funny, actually. You've noticed I've
repeated myself some times before, I gather! :)

>
> JP: Particularly for the quarter-tones at 50 cents. I'm sure
people have played quarter-tones on AFMM concerts over the years
without having 50 cents written every time...
>
> Johnny: You are misrepresenting me, Joe. I have always suggested
basic quartertone notation so that there would be no need for numbers
over 49 above the noteheads.
>

****You're right! I forgot about that. *Your* system is,
fundamentally based upon 24-tET as a "take off" place. Wise idea,
too... However, when *I* did that viola and electronic piece in that
system, I only added cents < or = 25 for that, and I believe you like
greater flexibility than that.

> JP: I note that you are a bit flexible on the idea of *template*
notation in *some* limited instances, so not *everything* on AFMM
concerts is *always* in cents.
>
> JR: template? What do you mean?
>

***I believe in one of your recent posts you agreed that for a "fixed
pitch" instrument you didn't need notation in cents, but just
a "template" notation to show where to place the fingers.

But my mind is gone, so I might be imagining things.... (again)

> JP: Basically, as I believe Paul Erlich has mentioned before, 72-
tET is essentially "training wheels" notation for the full 1200-tET
continuum.
>
> JR: Many music educators make the same argument for teaching staff
lines by the phrase "every good boy does fine." This is a disaster
as it doesn't allow for genuine staff reading. How many on this List
suggest teaching "every good boy does fine" as training wheels for
reading music?
>

***Good boys *never* do fine, so there's a basic problem with it
right there...

>
> JP: There's a difference, too, in the kinds of people we are
working with. *You* have a cadre of *specialists.* They can play
*anything* and this has been proven. Many can *easily* play 1200-tET
to close to 1 cent accuracy.
>
> JR: When I contract an orchestra it is for the best musicians, not
for "specialists." My best musicians become specialists over several
years time.
>
> JP: However, *I'm* more interested, at the moment, in
> approaching "traditional" players who have never worked in
microtonality.
>
> JR: Every musician is a traditional player before becoming a
specialist, myself included. You have become a microtonalist because
of someone's intervention. :)
>

***I'm certainly glad I had an, er.. "intervention!" :)

Maybe I should write a "theme and intervention??" :)

> JP: I don't think they can *do* 1200-tET at this stage.
> Getting them to just do 50 cent, 33 cent and 17 cent deviations is
*enough* for *my* expectations at the moment...
>
> JR: If they are reading any notation accurately they are playing
cents relationships anyway. Why not go to the heart of the matter?
72-notation, as with most any other is like writing for a village.
Cents opens it up to the universe of music. That is exactly why it
was invented by Ellis, to put all musics on the same page.
>
> JP: But will happily "write them in" for you if necessary! best,
Joseph
>
> JR: As I'm not playing them it is not sweat off my brow. I hope
that Julie picks up on the notation as easily as everyone thinks she
will. Cents would have been easier for her.
>

***It will be interesting to hear... No problem writing in the cents
values if it helps all that much. I can write three
numbers, ...hopefully... :)

jp