Shankar autobiography

I've just started reading "Raga Mala," Ravi Shankar's recent
autobiography, and it is a fascinating book. For me, it's very
interesting to read about his take on the 1960's scene, and what it
meant to him. For example, at the Monterey Pop Festival, he was quite
impressed with a number of the groups, including Otis Redding and Janis
Joplin (didn't care for Hendrix burning his axe, though). But, his
reaction to some of the modern, avant garde classical artists, such as
Schoenberg, was most interesting. Here, he talks about the Darmstadt
modern music festival, and what happened when he heard the music: "It is
mystifying how it happens, but I find that when I start hearing those
strange sounds or discordant combinations, within a few minutes I feel a
stomach cramp, and from stomach cramp I develop a terrible headache and
nausea. At first I thought these physical effects were coincidental,
that my suffering was due to some bad food I must have eaten; but it has
happened again and again, right up to this day. I feel ashamed of
myself, because thousands of people rave about this music. Though I am
sure most of them are sincere in their appreciation, one has to wonder
whether some are just behaving in a trendy manner, motivated by
snobbery. Sometimes I can appreciate the intelligent combinations used,
yet the whole gamut of this modern music, I am embarrassed to admit, is
a physical problem to me. I have to try harder, maybe!"
I also had a thought about Shankar's involvement with George Harrison
(who really was deeply involved with Indian philosophy for the duration
of his life after meeting Shankar)...wouldn't it have been fascinating
if Harrison had been exposed to the tuning theories of Indian music, and
shared them with the millions of Beatle fans? Perhaps they never talked
about tuning, or maybe if they did, it just didn't seem like a big issue
for Harrison. How different the Western music world may have been had
all of us kids, who began playing guitar at the time of the Beatles,
heard about microtones. We'll never know...Hstick

--- In tuning@y..., "Neil Haverstick" <STICK@U...> wrote:

> But, his
> reaction to some of the modern, avant garde classical artists,
such as
> Schoenberg, was most interesting. Here, he talks about the
Darmstadt
> modern music festival, and what happened when he heard the
music: "It is
> mystifying how it happens, but I find that when I start hearing
those
> strange sounds or discordant combinations, within a few
minutes I feel a
> stomach cramp, and from stomach cramp I develop a terrible
headache and
> nausea. At first I thought these physical effects were
coincidental,
> that my suffering was due to some bad food I must have eaten;
but it has
> happened again and again, right up to this day. I feel ashamed
of
> myself, because thousands of people rave about this music.
Though I am
> sure most of them are sincere in their appreciation, one has to
wonder
> whether some are just behaving in a trendy manner, motivated
by
> snobbery. Sometimes I can appreciate the intelligent
combinations used,
> yet the whole gamut of this modern music, I am embarrassed
to admit, is
> a physical problem to me. I have to try harder, maybe!"

I feel the same way. Modern academic music -- does the
emperor have no clothes? I won't presume to judge others, but
my own love of music doesn't happen to steer me in that
direction. No matter how clever something appears on paper, it
won't interest me _as music_ unless I like the way it sounds --
and I like to think I have a pretty open mind as far as allowing
myself to get used to new and unfamiliar sounds. But if a piece
of music isn't designed for the ear, why bother playing it at all?
Just leave it on paper, and it's some sort of conceptual art . . .

This is not to say I dislike all the music in the modern academic
genre -- most of the Lior Navok saxophone quartet the Marines
playes was absolutely sublime . . .

--- In tuning@y..., "paulerlich" <paul@s...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_33207.html#33209

>
> I feel the same way. Modern academic music -- does the
> emperor have no clothes? I won't presume to judge others, but
> my own love of music doesn't happen to steer me in that
> direction. No matter how clever something appears on paper, it
> won't interest me _as music_ unless I like the way it sounds --
> and I like to think I have a pretty open mind as far as allowing
> myself to get used to new and unfamiliar sounds. But if a piece
> of music isn't designed for the ear, why bother playing it at all?
> Just leave it on paper, and it's some sort of conceptual art . . .
>
> This is not to say I dislike all the music in the modern academic
> genre -- most of the Lior Navok saxophone quartet the Marines
> playes was absolutely sublime . . .

Well, I wasn't going to comment on this, but now that Paul brings it
up again, I will. The problem with the Darmstadt school, at least in
the 70's when I participated in it (I think 1974) was a particular
closed-mindedness, reflective of that time.

They *were* listening to sounds, however. I remember Stockhausen
banging and scraping on a huge tam-tam in his _Microphonie_ and
Xenakis with some nice spacially-located percussion licks. Much of
this stuff was actually likeable.

However, I once mentioned the name "Charles Ives" and some of the
other composers wouldn't talk to me (although we had been to the
disco the night before...) His music was sometimes "tonal" and,
therefore, thoroughly "reactionary." I never for a moment would say
a work like "Bartok" without getting an extreme treatment of one kind
or another.

But, Darmstadt was just a reflection, then, of the times... the early
60's and, I believe, this is the period Shankar is referring to.

Not much of this attitude exists anymore, by the way, even in
Europe... although there are a few holdovers.

Most "academic" music in America, at least, is now pretty varied.
The music departments are mostly "reacting" to that trend. (Sure,
somebody's going to find a contradicting example, but I'm just
speaking on the "overview.")

Good examples of what I'm talking about are appointments of people
such as Steve Mackey

http://www.stevenmackey.com/

at Princeton... an electronic guitar guy (and fine composer),

Michael Daugherty

http://www.music.umich.edu/faculty/daugherty.michael.html

at the U. Michigan (wacky Superman series/Elvis fame) and many
others...

These are our new "academics" of the moment...

And how is this about "tuning?" Well, Steve Mackey has been
presented by "Newband" for starters...

J. Pehrson

--- In tuning@y..., "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_33207.html#33278

This slightly off-topic post that I posted Sunday afternoon showed up
*overnight* Sunday night, so it looks as though the posts
*eventually* show up, even if a day late! :)

JP

Neil Haverstick wrote:

> I've just started reading "Raga Mala," Ravi Shankar's recent
> autobiography, and it is a fascinating book. For me, it's very
> interesting to read about his take on the 1960's scene, and what it
> meant to him. For example, at the Monterey Pop Festival, he was quite
> impressed with a number of the groups, including Otis Redding and Janis
> Joplin (didn't care for Hendrix burning his axe, though). But, his
> reaction to some of the modern, avant garde classical artists, such as
> Schoenberg, was most interesting. Here, he talks about the Darmstadt
> modern music festival, and what happened when he heard the music: "It is
> mystifying how it happens, but I find that when I start hearing those
> strange sounds or discordant combinations, within a few minutes I feel a
> stomach cramp, and from stomach cramp I develop a terrible headache and
> nausea. At first I thought these physical effects were coincidental,
> that my suffering was due to some bad food I must have eaten; but it has
> happened again and again, right up to this day. I feel ashamed of
> myself, because thousands of people rave about this music. Though I am
> sure most of them are sincere in their appreciation, one has to wonder
> whether some are just behaving in a trendy manner, motivated by
> snobbery. Sometimes I can appreciate the intelligent combinations used,
> yet the whole gamut of this modern music, I am embarrassed to admit, is
> a physical problem to me. I have to try harder, maybe!"

Ravi Shankar was brought up in a musical tradition which would have sensitized him greatly to
pitch, sound and timbre, much more so than that to which most Westerners are accustomed.
Furthermore the musical conditions under which he was trained to play would have relied on a very
tightly bound physical/spiritual union, again absent from much Western practice. The goal of some
Indian Classical training, as I understand from my experience, is to refine and refine your
attitudes and responses as you progress. Many Westerners dismiss this as mumbo-jumbo. But it's no
surprise to me that his physical reaction was one of rejection. I seem to remember reading that
Morton Feldman had a similar reaction as a child the first time he was taken to listen to a Bartok
recital. He felt sick and developed a headache and had to be taken home.

Kind Regards

> Michael Daugherty
>
> http://www.music.umich.edu/faculty/daugherty.michael.html
>
> at the U. Michigan (wacky Superman series/Elvis fame) and many
> others...
>
> These are our new "academics" of the moment...

'Warning: You are now leaving the University Of Michigan Website!!'

Sorry, I couldn't resist. :)

-Carl