Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Pitch-bend in Cakewalk (was: Re: 72-EDO Saggital Notation)

> From: gdsecor <gdsecor@yahoo.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 1:32 PM
> Subject: [tuning] Re: 72-EDO Saggital Notation [WAS: *BT* What is a
Secor?]
>
>

> You have inspired me to start composing, and I'm going to have to
> find out how one goes about generating those pitch-bent midi files.
> I bought a Cakewalk program for my daughter, but I don't know if she
> mislaid the documentation or what, because I can't find it. Anyway,
> my attempt to achieve pitch bend with it was completely unsuccessful
> (returning to the pitch-bend menu showed that my input hadn't even
> been accepted), and I wonder what I'm doing wrong. Since you guys
> are old hands at this, I would appreciate your directing me to
> whatever places I need to go to get some help with this.

While it's quite limited, you'll still probably find this useful:

A couple of years ago I wrote a tiny program to run in Cakewalk's
CAL language, which I call "micro.cal" :
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/micro/micro.htm

Micro.cal allows you to step-input each note as a ratio,
and it automatically inserts the pitch-bend event, with
the proper pitch-bend value accurate to within 2 cents,
to that note. Then you have to go back and adjust "8ves"
afterwards, but it's a lot easier than adding pitch-bend
by hand, which is how I normally do it.

If you want to do it by hand, I find this to be the easiest way:

1: Enter the nearest 12-EDO pitches into your track.

2: Clone that track to an empty track, then look at the note-list
in Event List view, and you can quickly scroll thru each
event and change it from a note-on to a pitch-bend.

3: Still in Event List view, type in all the new pitch-bend
values.

By cloning the original track first, you save yourself from
having to actually enter all the pitch-bend data from scratch,
and all the timings are already correct.

If you're going to immerse yourself in this world, you'll
probably also find yourself wanting to use this a lot:

"7-limit pitch-bend lattice" :
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/lattices/pitch-bend-lattice.htm

-monz

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🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@juno.com>

--- In tuning@y..., "monz" <joemonz@y...> wrote:

> If you want to do it by hand, I find this to be the easiest way:
>
> 1: Enter the nearest 12-EDO pitches into your track.
>
> 2: Clone that track to an empty track, then look at the note-list
> in Event List view, and you can quickly scroll thru each
> event and change it from a note-on to a pitch-bend.
>
> 3: Still in Event List view, type in all the new pitch-bend
> values.

Here's another way: take a midi file and convert it to a Csound score file. Then edit the score file into a Scala .seq file. Change the pitch and timing information to whatever you want, and use Scala to convert it back to a midi file.

🔗jonszanto <JSZANTO@ADNC.COM>

🔗genewardsmith <genewardsmith@juno.com>

--- In tuning@y..., "jonszanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@j...> wrote:
> > Here's another way: take a midi file and convert it to a Csound
> score file.

> What utility do you use to do this? I once tried an app that claimed
> to make .sco files, but the thing was so buggy I couldn't make it
> happen...

It's called midi2cs.exe, and it works fine so long as you are willing to deal with DOS programs. I just use the DOS prompt, but you could write a .bat file also.

🔗jonszanto <JSZANTO@ADNC.COM>

🔗jpff@cs.bath.ac.uk

🔗jonszanto <JSZANTO@ADNC.COM>

🔗gdsecor <gdsecor@yahoo.com>

--- In tuning@y..., "monz" <joemonz@y...> wrote:
>
> If you want to do it by hand, I find this to be the easiest way:
>
> 1: Enter the nearest 12-EDO pitches into your track.
>
> 2: Clone that track to an empty track, then look at the note-list
> in Event List view, and you can quickly scroll thru each
> event and change it from a note-on to a pitch-bend.
>
> 3: Still in Event List view, type in all the new pitch-bend
> values.
>
> By cloning the original track first, you save yourself from
> having to actually enter all the pitch-bend data from scratch,
> and all the timings are already correct.
>
> -monz

Joe, thanks! This was the secret that worked!

In fact, I found that there is a better way than copying a track to
an empty track. Just go to the event list, click on the note you
want to bend, and press the <Ins> key. It will make a duplicate
entry for that note, and you can then change it from a note-on to a
pitch-bend, and it's listed in the same track as the note.

However, I have two more questions:

1) By experimenting, I came to the conclusion that 40 pitch bend
units = 1 cent (at least in the pitch range where I tried it). Is
this correct?

2) I found that a pitch-bend event (using "wheel", right?) not only
bends the pitch I want to bend, but also any others that are playing
(or sustaining) at the same time. Unless I want to create something
for unaccompanied violin (no double stops, please!) or kazoo, etc.,
what good does this do me?

With hopeful appreciation,

--George

🔗paulerlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

🔗gdsecor <gdsecor@yahoo.com>

🔗monz <joemonz@yahoo.com>

> From: gdsecor <gdsecor@yahoo.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 1:11 PM
> Subject: [tuning] Pitch-bend in Cakewalk (was: Re: 72-EDO Saggital
Notation)
>
>
> --- In tuning@y..., "monz" <joemonz@y...> wrote:
> > By cloning the original track first, you save yourself from
> > having to actually enter all the pitch-bend data from scratch,
> > and all the timings are already correct.
> >
>
>
> Joe, thanks! This was the secret that worked!
>
> In fact, I found that there is a better way than copying a track to
> an empty track. Just go to the event list, click on the note you
> want to bend, and press the <Ins> key. It will make a duplicate
> entry for that note, and you can then change it from a note-on to a
> pitch-bend, and it's listed in the same track as the note.

That works too, but seems like more work to me. When you do it
my way, and you're finished editing the pitch-bend values, you can
then simply blend the note and pitch-bend tracks together, so that
both parameters appear in the same track.

> However, I have two more questions:
>
> 1) By experimenting, I came to the conclusion that 40 pitch bend
> units = 1 cent (at least in the pitch range where I tried it). Is
> this correct?

Take a look at my definitions for "cawapu" and "midipu"
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/dict/cawapu.htm
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/dict/midipu.htm

You're talking about what I call a "cawapu", and it's exactly
40.96 units = 1 cent.

> 2) I found that a pitch-bend event (using "wheel", right?) not only
> bends the pitch I want to bend, but also any others that are playing
> (or sustaining) at the same time. Unless I want to create something
> for unaccompanied violin (no double stops, please!) or kazoo, etc.,
> what good does this do me?

You have to be careful to put each individual pitch-bend value
on its own MIDI channel. Thus, you can only have a maximum of
16 different pitch-bend values at any one time.

To me, this is by far the single biggest limitation of MIDI
(well, unless you count the fact that it would be really nice
to use something *other* than 12-EDO as your basis to begin with!).

This 16-channel limitation causes a need to do some serious
work-arounds at times. It's also possible to link several
different MIDI setups together, to get multiples of 16 channels.
But I believe you need to invest in hardware for that.

-monz

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

🔗gdsecor <gdsecor@yahoo.com>

--- In tuning@y..., "monz" <joemonz@y...> wrote:
>
> > From: gdsecor <gdsecor@y...>

> > 2) I found that a pitch-bend event (using "wheel", right?) not
only
> > bends the pitch I want to bend, but also any others that are
playing
> > (or sustaining) at the same time. Unless I want to create
something
> > for unaccompanied violin (no double stops, please!) or kazoo,
etc.,
> > what good does this do me?
>
>
> You have to be careful to put each individual pitch-bend value
> on its own MIDI channel. Thus, you can only have a maximum of
> 16 different pitch-bend values at any one time.
>
> To me, this is by far the single biggest limitation of MIDI
> (well, unless you count the fact that it would be really nice
> to use something *other* than 12-EDO as your basis to begin with!).
>
> This 16-channel limitation causes a need to do some serious
> work-arounds at times. It's also possible to link several
> different MIDI setups together, to get multiples of 16 channels.
> But I believe you need to invest in hardware for that.
>
> -monz

Aha! *Channels!* So I put any instruments playing in unison or
octaves for any significant period of time on the same channel, and
one series of pitch-bend events takes care of them all. (Things can
work to one's advantage, as well.)

Thanks!

--George

🔗jonszanto <JSZANTO@ADNC.COM>

--- In tuning@y..., "gdsecor" <gdsecor@y...> wrote:
> Aha! *Channels!* So I put any instruments playing in unison or
> octaves for any significant period of time on the same channel, and
> one series of pitch-bend events takes care of them all. (Things can
> work to one's advantage, as well.)

Absolutely! Having been with midi for many years now, I've found at
least some of the times what looks like a problem will work in your
favor.

George, I have no idea what computer platform you use, but I am now
using a USB midi box with a PC (and it would work with a Mac) that
has four inputs and four outputs, each software-addressable
separately, giving one (effectively) 64 channels to work with, at
less than $100.

Optimal? No way - what about more than 64 voice polyphony,
or 'orchestral' size scores? But it certainly gets a person going,
and one could always do multiple passes, recording stereo tracks on
each pass and doing a digital mix later.

Am I being too practical?

Cheers,
Jon

🔗jpehrson2 <jpehrson@rcn.com>

--- In tuning@y..., "paulerlich" <paul@s...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_32974.html#33071

> --- In tuning@y..., "gdsecor" <gdsecor@y...> wrote:
>
> > 1) By experimenting, I came to the conclusion that 40 pitch bend
> > units = 1 cent (at least in the pitch range where I tried it).
Is
> > this correct?
>
> You're close!! I believe 40.96 is the exact figure -- 2^12 steps
per
> semitone. See Monz's
<http://www.ixpres.com/interval/dict/cawapu.htm>.

****Did *Monz* coin that word "cawapu?" Very good... (funny)

🔗Herman Miller <hmiller@IO.COM>

On Wed, 23 Jan 2002 13:22:03 -0800, "monz" <joemonz@yahoo.com> wrote:

>You have to be careful to put each individual pitch-bend value
>on its own MIDI channel. Thus, you can only have a maximum of
>16 different pitch-bend values at any one time.

I've used Graham Breed's MIDICONV to separate tracks into multiple channels
and insert the pitch bends, although it has some limitations and doesn't
always make the best use of the channels. Still, it beats changing the
channel on each note by hand.

>This 16-channel limitation causes a need to do some serious
>work-arounds at times. It's also possible to link several
>different MIDI setups together, to get multiples of 16 channels.
>But I believe you need to invest in hardware for that.

With one of my recent retunings (Kaltan-JI, see the Tuning Punks page), I
managed to get twice as many channels by using the Sound Blaster and the
Windows software MIDI emulation at the same time. I did have to add some
delay to the Sound Blaster tracks to get them in sync, though. (For some
reason, now that I've "upgraded" to Windows XP, I can't get the real Sound
Blaster MIDI to work and I have to use the Microsoft thing. Probably need
to get a new driver or something.)

--
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