overtone

I'm swimmingn in stuff to look at over here. Who found
this? Jeremy? Me? Whatever, it rocks!!

http://www.clab.unibe.ch/overtone/

-Carl

--- In tuning@y..., "clumma" <carl@l...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_32907.html#32907

> I'm swimmingn in stuff to look at over here. Who found
> this? Jeremy? Me? Whatever, it rocks!!
>
> http://www.clab.unibe.ch/overtone/
>
> -Carl

Hi Carl...

I thought this was pretty cool, too.

Do you have any examples of things that it *shows/proves?* (??)

I'm sure you do.

I'm not quite so certain what to do with it...

Thanks!

Joe Pehrson

> Hi Carl...
>
> I thought this was pretty cool, too.
>
> Do you have any examples of things that it *shows/proves?* (??)
>
> I'm sure you do.

Not really. I was surprised that I couldn't get phase to make
much difference, anywhere. Is isn't clear what this means in
the context of the program. Maybe Paul can help.

> I'm not quite so certain what to do with it...

Play!

-Carl

--- In tuning@y..., "clumma" <carl@l...> wrote:

> Not really. I was surprised that I couldn't get phase to make
> much difference, anywhere. Is isn't clear what this means in
> the context of the program. Maybe Paul can help.

As I've always said, phase makes virtually no audible difference. At
loud volumes, you'll hear a difference, as relative phases which
induce larger peaks and troughs will get you more clipping than those
which don't. The BBE Sound Enhancement audio components liberally
adjust the relative phases of the frequencies of the music you're
listening to, so you can get the most possible volume out of your
audio equipment without clipping.

>> Not really. I was surprised that I couldn't get phase to make
>> much difference, anywhere. Is isn't clear what this means in
>> the context of the program. Maybe Paul can help.
>
>As I've always said, phase makes virtually no audible difference.

Right. Is this because the period of the composite wave is
unchanged (is that even true)?

>At loud volumes, you'll hear a difference, as relative phases
>which induce larger peaks and troughs will get you more clipping
>than those which don't.

I wasn't playing the thing very loudly, but through my headphones,
I sort of noticed a panning effect as I changed the phase.

-Carl

--- In tuning@y..., "clumma" <carl@l...> wrote:

> Right. Is this because the period of the composite wave is
> unchanged (is that even true)?

True but probably irrelevant. The point is that through a combination
of cochlear stimulation and neural processing, we essentially do a
Fourier analysis on what we hear, keep the frequency information, and
largely throw out the phase information.

> I wasn't playing the thing very loudly, but through my headphones,
> I sort of noticed a panning effect as I changed the phase.

If the phase is changing, you'll get a different effect that if it's
not changing. That's how phasers (the guitar effect) work.

>>I wasn't playing the thing very loudly, but through my headphones,
>>I sort of noticed a panning effect as I changed the phase.
>
>If the phase is changing, you'll get a different effect that if
>it's not changing. That's how phasers (the guitar effect) work.

Any idea why (even a guess or a gloss may be helpful here)?

-C.

--- In tuning@y..., "clumma" <carl@l...> wrote:

> >If the phase is changing, you'll get a different effect that if
> >it's not changing. That's how phasers (the guitar effect) work.
>
> Any idea why (even a guess or a gloss may be helpful here)?

If the phase is changing at a constant rate and the frequency is
constant, it's mathematically equivalent to the frequency being
slightly different and the phase held constant. I don't know what you
were varying in your experiment, but if you were changing the phase
between two sine waves an octave apart, you were effectively altering
the octave relationship to a slightly different interval. Thus you
would have heard second-order beating, which always sounds like it's
swimming inside your head (read Roederer).

>If the phase is changing at a constant rate and the frequency is
>constant, it's mathematically equivalent to the frequency being
>slightly different and the phase held constant.

Really? Then phase changes should be audible!

>I don't know what you were varying in your experiment, but if
>you were changing the phase between two sine waves an octave
>apart, you were effectively altering the octave relationship to
>a slightly different interval. Thus you would have heard second-
>order beating, which always sounds like it's swimming inside
>your head (read Roederer).

Sounds right.

-C.

--- In tuning@y..., "paulerlich" <paul@s...> wrote:

> True but probably irrelevant. The point is that through a combination
> of cochlear stimulation and neural processing, we essentially do a
> Fourier analysis on what we hear, keep the frequency information, and
> largely throw out the phase information.

Which means we reduce to the energy spectrum. I wonder how much of any phase difference which can be heard is simply an effect of a nonlinear response?

--- In tuning@y..., "clumma" <carl@l...> wrote:
> >If the phase is changing at a constant rate and the frequency is
> >constant, it's mathematically equivalent to the frequency being
> >slightly different and the phase held constant.
>
> Really? Then phase changes should be audible!

That's what I was saying! Phase is not audible, phase change is
audible. It's kind of like voltage and voltage differences.

--- In tuning@y..., "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@j...> wrote:

> Which means we reduce to the energy spectrum. I wonder how much of
>any phase difference which can be heard is simply an effect of a
>nonlinear response?

I would guess all of it.

>>>If the phase is changing at a constant rate and the frequency is
>>>constant, it's mathematically equivalent to the frequency being
>>>slightly different and the phase held constant.
>>
>> Really? Then phase changes should be audible!
>
>That's what I was saying! Phase is not audible, phase change is
>audible. It's kind of like voltage and voltage differences.

Ah-ha!

I wonder what would happen if absolute phase differences mattered.
Would it be possible to extract useful information (in a survival
sense) from them? Or, is hearing differently-phased versions of
the same thing as the same thing important?

-Carl

--- In tuning@y..., "clumma" <carl@l...> wrote:

> I wonder what would happen if absolute phase differences mattered.
> Would it be possible to extract useful information (in a survival
> sense) from them?

I think the reasoning would be: since it's not possible to extract
useful information (in a survival sense) from phase differences, they
don't matter in aural perception as it evolved in man.

> Or, is hearing differently-phased versions of
> the same thing as the same thing important?

I guess it's simpler to evolve an auditory system which doesn't
transmit phase information than to evolve one that does. According to
Terhardt: "it is evident that spectral pitch emerges from an analysis
of the spatio-temporal distribution of the cochlear partition's
excitation" . . . and virtual pitch emerges from that. Phase
relationships don't get a chance to play a role.

I'm writing for advise on what synth to buy in order to play and hear the
true nature of the harmonics of microtones.

My primary interest is in the natural harmonic sequence but I may want to
use other harmonies at a later date.

My current set-up:

Korg O5R-W module:
This resolves pitch-bend to a degree of one cent. It cannot be programmed
to play non12tet tunings therefore, at present, I have to set up my
sequencer in order to hear what I want.

Studio Vision Pro 3.5 (SV) on a MacIntosh computer:
This is why I bought a Mac (no regrets). The unique facility that this
software has (at least unique when I bought it 4 years ago) is that it can
record audio and then convert it to MIDI. It can therefore create
pitch-bend data from an audio track.
SV can divide a semitone into 8192 degrees which I think is beyond the
needs of my ears.

At present I play eg. a chord into the sequencer and then have to seperate
the notes into different instruments and set the pitch bend appropriately
to each one. This takes time and means that I cannot hear what I want in
real time, also I can end up with 7 piano and 7 bass instruments ...not
satisfactory.

What should I buy? I have a good mother keyboard so a rack module will
suffice. I would like something with a memory so that I can recall and
transpose tunings.

All suggestions will be appreciated.

Many thanks

Gerry

_____________________________________________________________

GERRY PLATT. London

gerry@dobedo.prestel.co.uk

Designer/maker of fitted and free-standing bespoke furniture.
_____________________________________________________________

Gerry,

Try my web site at http://home.att.net/~microtonal for information on
all kinds of synthesizers with microtuning capability.
John Loffink
jloffink@austin.rr.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Gerry Platt [mailto:gp@dobedo.prestel.co.uk]
Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 5:22 AM
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [tuning] What Synth?

I'm writing for advise on what synth to buy in order to play and hear
the
true nature of the harmonics of microtones.

My primary interest is in the natural harmonic sequence but I may want
to
use other harmonies at a later date.

My current set-up:

Korg O5R-W module:
This resolves pitch-bend to a degree of one cent. It cannot be
programmed
to play non12tet tunings therefore, at present, I have to set up my
sequencer in order to hear what I want.

Studio Vision Pro 3.5 (SV) on a MacIntosh computer:
This is why I bought a Mac (no regrets). The unique facility that this
software has (at least unique when I bought it 4 years ago) is that it
can
record audio and then convert it to MIDI. It can therefore create
pitch-bend data from an audio track.
SV can divide a semitone into 8192 degrees which I think is beyond the
needs of my ears.

At present I play eg. a chord into the sequencer and then have to
seperate
the notes into different instruments and set the pitch bend
appropriately
to each one. This takes time and means that I cannot hear what I want in
real time, also I can end up with 7 piano and 7 bass instruments ...not
satisfactory.

What should I buy? I have a good mother keyboard so a rack module will
suffice. I would like something with a memory so that I can recall and
transpose tunings.

All suggestions will be appreciated.

Many thanks

Gerry

_____________________________________________________________

GERRY PLATT. London

gerry@dobedo.prestel.co.uk

Designer/maker of fitted and free-standing bespoke furniture.
_____________________________________________________________

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Gerry,

--- In tuning@y..., Gerry Platt <gp@d...> wrote:
> I'm writing for advise on what synth to buy in order to play and
> hear the true nature of the harmonics of microtones.

Sounds like what you want is Robert Walker's "Fractal Tune Smithy":
http://members.tripod.com/~robertinventor/ftsbeta.htm

Even with your existing equipment you'll be able to relay the kbd
through the program to send information to the synth in the
intonation/scale you choose.

Cheers,
Jon