Why have standards?

So, if we're going to end up with various *notations* for 72-tET, why
not go all the way and have different Blackjack "keys?"

I should, in that case, keep my F-C-G Blackjack key and call *it* a
standard, since I wrote a couple of pieces in it...

Why change? It's just a "hassle" for me...

In a way, it's reminiscent of the 1960's contemporary music scene,
where each composer had his *own* personal notation. In fact,
composers at that time were *proud* of the fact that they were
totally individual and their works intersected with no one else's...

Sometime the "preface" for the notation was practically as long as
the piece. Maybe more interesting...

I believe it's one of the factors that caused the disintigration and
fragmentation of contemporary music, by the way...

Joseph Pehrson

Joe,

I've often wondered just the same thing, and that *isn't* a sarcastic
answer. I realize you are trying to find something that will
stabilize your performance options in the live arena, but this is
*such* a small niche market that I think anyone would benefit by what
works best for *them*, and then find people who are interested in
doing it.

If you *really* think that 72tet will be the new and accepted
monolith that 12tet has been, then maybe a standards battle is worth
waging. But you may go crazy, or tear your hair out, with the endless
debates as each different group finds their own favorite needs
addressed.

I found fascinating Paul's statement that the "Boston" group doesn't
have any interest in the music he presented to them (which I took to
mean music that has come out of these lists). What in heaven's name
are they using microtones for? Yikes...

Jon (who's looking forward to another thought-about notational
scheme...)

--- In tuning@y..., "jonszanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

> I found fascinating Paul's statement that the "Boston" group
doesn't
> have any interest in the music he presented to them (which I took
to
> mean music that has come out of these lists). What in heaven's name
> are they using microtones for? Yikes...

Well, for one think, Ted Mook (who's in NY, but uses the "Boston"
notational system) has used it to perform Partch. As for the other
music that's been notated this way, there's evidently been quite a
bit of it, and as I also stated, I wasn't too crazy about what I've
heard, but it's a whole musical "culture" or two (Maneri vs. Sims) as
I also touched on . . . so I'm not sure why you would ask "What in
heaven's name are they using microtones for?"

--- In tuning@y..., "paulerlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> Well, for one think, Ted Mook (who's in NY, but uses the "Boston"
> notational system) has used it to perform Partch.

Ahem, yes, I'm aware of that. He also used a 'standard' opera singer
for the Li Po songs. Sometimes the notion of a 'standard' takes on
elements that are philosophical. You may disagree, but I believe many
artists aren't panting with excitement to be 'standard'.

My post to Joe was tip-toeing into the realm just outside of the nut-
and-bolts notation issue, in partial exploration of why people might
*not* want to have an arbitrary standard.

> As for the other
> music that's been notated this way, there's evidently been quite a
> bit of it

Yes? I know of Maneri and Sims, but do they have influence outside of
the New England area? Not doubting, just curious.

> and as I also stated, I wasn't too crazy about what I've
> heard, but it's a whole musical "culture" or two (Maneri vs. Sims)
> as I also touched on . . . so I'm not sure why you would ask "What
> in heaven's name are they using microtones for?"

Curiousity, in a stylistic sense. If what they do is arch-
conservative, and those are the kind of players/musicians they are,
then their technical prowess in reading a particular notation does
not, prime face, make them the perfect candidates for performing
music outside of their 'culture'.

I tend to believe that notation, just as typography, has a direct
bearing on the medium *outside* of the simple detail of representing
information - it can color and shape it as well.

Lot's to think about, and many will find one path while others seek
somewhere else...

Cheers,
Jon

--- In tuning@y..., "jonszanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

> Yes? I know of Maneri and Sims, but do they have influence outside
of
> the New England area?

Maneri is quite famous in Europe, for example.

> > and as I also stated, I wasn't too crazy about what I've
> > heard, but it's a whole musical "culture" or two (Maneri vs.
Sims)
> > as I also touched on . . . so I'm not sure why you would
ask "What
> > in heaven's name are they using microtones for?"
>
> Curiousity, in a stylistic sense. If what they do is arch-
> conservative,

??? That's the absolute last term I'd associate with Maneri.

> and those are the kind of players/musicians they are,
> then their technical prowess in reading a particular notation does
> not, prime face, make them the perfect candidates for performing
> music outside of their 'culture'.

This is true of any group of musicians and their notation regardless
of any "arch-conservative" or "arch-liberal" characterization.

P,

--- In tuning@y..., "paulerlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> Maneri is quite famous in Europe, for example.

Well, that's why I was curious. Quite famous... I'll have to do some
snooping.

> > Curiousity, in a stylistic sense. If what they do is arch-
> > conservative,
>
> ??? That's the absolute last term I'd associate with Maneri.

Hey, I'm just finding out about this stuff! I have no idea who Julie
W. is associated with, but I remember that as being archconservative
post-modernist stuff, or something, or something.

> This is true of any group of musicians and their notation
> regardless of any "arch-conservative" or "arch-liberal"
> characterization.

Right! So if a certain group settles on a standard, that doesn't mean
that the standard is beneficial in my particular performance
situation, and therefore following a standard doesn't benefit me
(using 'me' universally).

> From: jonszanto <JSZANTO@ADNC.COM>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2002 3:50 PM
> Subject: [tuning] Re: Why have standards?
>
>
> My post to Joe was tip-toeing into the realm just outside of the nut-
> and-bolts notation issue, in partial exploration of why people might
> *not* want to have an arbitrary standard.
>
> I tend to believe that notation, just as typography, has a direct
> bearing on the medium *outside* of the simple detail of representing
> information - it can color and shape it as well.

I'm glad you mention this, Jon. When Joe first raised this issue
a few days ago I was working on a long, detailed post which included
a bit of description of the graphical notation Bill Wesley uses
to perform his improvisations which begin with each hand playing
a different minimalist loop. Bill's notation allows one to see
clearly where two distinct melodic loops interlock and separate.

A big part of the point I was making, and the biggest point
Bill emphasizes, is that notating what he plays in regular
standard notation looks like *crap*. It doesn't convey a
real sense of what he's playing or of what the listener is
hearing. Therefore, *that* is the most appropriate notation
for what he's doing, despite its *radical* departure from
standard notation.

Unfortunately, I thought I saved that post but can't find it
anywhere on my PC now.

But there's good news on the horizon ... Bill is *finally*
getting together a website about his theories and his incredible
instruments. He plans to link it fully into mine ... so as
soon as his instruments really are in production, the site
should go public and there will be lots of links wherever I
can fit them in.

-monz

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Dan,

--- In tuning@y..., "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@C...> wrote:
> I've been blessed to have played with a lot of great musicians over
> the years, but I've never played with anyone like Joe and Mat. These
> guys are staggering.

Trying to be true to my word, since Paul and I wrote earlier today I
spent some time online on the Maneri's. Read some hellacious
interview with Joe (no shrinking violet and supremely confident in
his worth) as well as listening to excerpt from about 4-5 cds. Heady
stuff, not quite what I was expecting.

Here's the interesting duality that came from it: the music spoke to
me more than the descriptions I had heard of them, and he *certainly*
came off as the *last* person I'd figure was into a particular
notational scheme!

But now I am a Maneri-aware person, something that Joe must wish
99.99% more Americans were...

Cheers,
Jon (who would listen to anyone Dan would recommend...)

--- In tuning@y..., "jonszanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_32738.html#32764

> Joe,
>
> I've often wondered just the same thing, and that *isn't* a
sarcastic
> answer. I realize you are trying to find something that will
> stabilize your performance options in the live arena, but this is
> *such* a small niche market that I think anyone would benefit by
what
> works best for *them*, and then find people who are interested in
> doing it.
>

I suppose, Jon... However, I was only concerned that there was
*already* a performance practice for 72-tET "out there..."

Maybe that's an exaggeration... dunno...

JP

--- In tuning@y..., "jonszanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_32738.html#32803

> Dan,
>
> --- In tuning@y..., "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@C...> wrote:
> > I've been blessed to have played with a lot of great musicians
over
> > the years, but I've never played with anyone like Joe and Mat.
These
> > guys are staggering.
>
> Trying to be true to my word, since Paul and I wrote earlier today
I
> spent some time online on the Maneri's. Read some hellacious
> interview with Joe (no shrinking violet and supremely confident in
> his worth) as well as listening to excerpt from about 4-5 cds.
Heady
> stuff, not quite what I was expecting.
>
> Here's the interesting duality that came from it: the music spoke
to
> me more than the descriptions I had heard of them, and he
*certainly*
> came off as the *last* person I'd figure was into a particular
> notational scheme!
>
> But now I am a Maneri-aware person, something that Joe must wish
> 99.99% more Americans were...
>
> Cheers,
> Jon (who would listen to anyone Dan would recommend...)

And he and *all* those around him are *very, very, very, very, very,
very, very* set on the Sims notation standard.

Did I say *very?*...

JP

--- In tuning@y..., "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> I suppose, Jon... However, I was only concerned that there was
> *already* a performance practice for 72-tET "out there..."

Well, at least in the 'out there' that's closer to you! I think
Hollywood lags behind... :)

Cheers,
Jon

--- In tuning@y..., "jonszanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_32738.html#32821

> --- In tuning@y..., "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> > I suppose, Jon... However, I was only concerned that there was
> > *already* a performance practice for 72-tET "out there..."
>
> Well, at least in the 'out there' that's closer to you! I think
> Hollywood lags behind... :)
>
> Cheers,
> Jon

:) that's a good and rather humorous point, Jon!

JP