Re: [tuning] Digest Number 1794

> From: "clumma" <carl@lumma.org>
> Subject: Re: Harmonic Evolution
>
> > Bob Valentine said :
> >
> >I think that when serialist extended the technique from pitch space
> >to other spaces they really were barking up the wrong tree. The
> >serial pitch approach helps a composer defeat a central pitch
> >(tonal center) by presenting all pitches approximately the same
> >number of times. What phenomena in rhythm or dynamics is useful to
> >defeat using similar techniques? A stable rhythm? Dynamics and
> >time-feel that 'make sense' musically (i.e., lyricism)?
>
> Why not?
>

My take (and I stress, my take) on the serial technique is
that it is a recipe that can acheive a few different things
that seemed desireable when tonal materials blew up in
everyones faces through the musics of Wagner, Liszt and
Mahler.

1) it will statistically attempt to nullify the
creation of a tonal center by presenting each pitch
approximately the same number of times.
2) if the row is chosen carefully such that no inadvertant
tonal references are made, then applying the usual serial
techniques should also result in no inadvertant tonal
references being made
(2a inadvertant tonal references are bad only in that
the point is to control the tension/release of
the composition and unplanned tonality, like
unplanned or maltreated dissonances in cookbooks
from prior centurys, is wresting control of the
tension/release from the composers hands).
3) ...and it will do all this with a common thematic
material that should provide 'wholeness' and 'coherence'
to the work, much like theme and variations in prior
centuries, with the row (or portions of it) supplying
micro-motifs.

My question is, what similar problems were presented by the
dynamics used in the prior centuries, or rhythms, that
were addressed by this sort of recipe?

Now a perfectly good answer may be along the lines of "I
believe that the serial technique is supposed to take the
composer out of the music much the same way as John Cages use
of the IChing or the various improv and highly interpreble
works of Brown and Feldman". Thats fine and valid, but in
my opinion, is a revisionist approach rather than that of
the first practitioners.

Bob Valentine

>
> -Carl
>

>>>What phenomena in rhythm or dynamics is useful to
>>>defeat using similar techniques? A stable rhythm? Dynamics and
>>>time-feel that 'make sense' musically (i.e., lyricism)?
>>
>> Why not?
>
>My take (and I stress, my take) on the serial technique is
>that it is a recipe that can acheive a few different things
>that seemed desireable when tonal materials blew up in
>everyones faces through the musics of Wagner, Liszt and
>Mahler.
/.../
>My question is, what similar problems were presented by the
>dynamics used in the prior centuries, or rhythms, that
>were addressed by this sort of recipe?

I'm unable to answer that question, since I don't recognize
tonal materials as having blown up with Mahler, Wagner, and
Liszt, or any time since then. Atonal music may be
interesting (for me, it _is_ interesting, for up to ten minutes
a week), but it's just an accident.* I just meant that I can
see no reason that a similar accident couldn't apply to rhythm
and dynamics. Probably Webern had something to say about
this.

-Carl

--- In tuning@y..., Robert C Valentine <BVAL@I...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_32216.html#32216

> >
>
> My take (and I stress, my take) on the serial technique is
> that it is a recipe that can acheive a few different things
> that seemed desireable when tonal materials blew up in
> everyones faces through the musics of Wagner, Liszt and
> Mahler.
>
> 1) it will statistically attempt to nullify the
> creation of a tonal center by presenting each pitch
> approximately the same number of times.
> 2) if the row is chosen carefully such that no inadvertant
> tonal references are made, then applying the usual serial
> techniques should also result in no inadvertant tonal
> references being made
> (2a inadvertant tonal references are bad only in that
> the point is to control the tension/release of
> the composition and unplanned tonality, like
> unplanned or maltreated dissonances in cookbooks
> from prior centurys, is wresting control of the
> tension/release from the composers hands).
> 3) ...and it will do all this with a common thematic
> material that should provide 'wholeness' and 'coherence'
> to the work, much like theme and variations in prior
> centuries, with the row (or portions of it) supplying
> micro-motifs.
>

Hello Bob!

Not to be a contrarian (or "crank" from "cancrizans") but I believe
your notion of serialism is quite different from the original
historical intentions of the practicioners...

I'll let Monz, our "historical expert" elaborate on that if he gets a
chance...

Joe Pehrson