Usenet, anyone?

Things are getting worse and worse around here. What about a Usenet
newsgroup as a forum?

--- In tuning@y..., "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@j...> wrote:
> Things are getting worse and worse around here. What about a Usenet
> newsgroup as a forum?

You go, boy. If I have to go back into the muddy waters of Usenet,
where anything goes and spam is a daily occurance, nope. The topic of
where to host this group has come up in the past, and there have been
a couple of people willing to host it on university servers as a
traditional mailing list. I happen to think that is a spectacular
idea.

Cheers,
Jon

--- In tuning@y..., "jonszanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@j...> wrote:
> > Things are getting worse and worse around here. What about a
Usenet
> > newsgroup as a forum?
>
> You go, boy. If I have to go back into the muddy waters of Usenet,
> where anything goes and spam is a daily occurance, nope.

That is hardly a fair description of Usenet; "anything goes" is far
from true on a moderated group, and not the case even on a Big Five
group. It is also free, without obnoxious ads or the need to defend
them. Somehow, they manage to make that work.

--- In tuning@y..., "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@j...> wrote:
> That is hardly a fair description of Usenet

I'm not sure what constitutes "fair", but it certainly is my
experience with Usenet, going back about a decade, as well as common
complaints from many others. That said, read on...

> "anything goes" is far from true on a moderated group

Live and learn: I was unaware of 'moderated' groups on Usenet, and
thanks for alerting me to this fact. Moderation could help at least
some of the Usenet problems.

> and not the case even on a Big Five group.

Big Five group?

> It is also free, without obnoxious ads or the need to defend
> them. Somehow, they manage to make that work.

Yes, thanks to many resources pooled from all over. I hope I didn't
come across as "defending" the ads, because they blow chunks. But
explaining *why* they occur at least makes sense. You could see
commerce coming miles away when we moved to eGroups.

Cheers,
Jon

> That is hardly a fair description of Usenet; "anything goes" is far
> from true on a moderated group, and not the case even on a Big Five
> group. It is also free, without obnoxious ads or the need to defend
> them. Somehow, they manage to make that work.

I've never really used usenet, so I can't say, but on first take I
wouldn't prefer it. But these new ads are unacceptable. I will
hazard a bet that yahoo will take them down within 3 months, but we
shouldn't count on this or have to wait. In addition to usenet, we
could get together some money and rent a listserv, with full web
stuff, just like yahoo.

-Carl

One opinion:
<<If I have to go back into the muddy waters of Usenet,
where anything goes and spam is a daily occurance, nope.>>

A second opinion:
<<That is hardly a fair description of Usenet; "anything goes" is far
from true on a moderated group, and not the case even on a Big Five
group. It is also free, without obnoxious ads or the need to defend
them. Somehow, they manage to make that work.>>

--- In tuning@y..., "clumma" <carl@l...> wrote:

> I've never really used usenet, so I can't say, but on first take I
> wouldn't prefer it. But these new ads are unacceptable.

Regarding my personal experience over the last five years(in browsing
through, and taking a look at the message content of, use net
groups), the statement that "spam is a daily occurance" rings fairly
true for the average group.

An excellent NNTP news reader/responder software interface is Forte
Agent (1.8 works *great* with Win 9x, 1.9 beta will address some Win
2000 and Win Me "issues", version 2.0 is upcoming (see v1.9 press
release) at: http://www.forteinc.com/press/agent19.htm). the free
version (no outbound email, or the useful filters, however) is at:
http://www.forteinc.com/getfa/getfa.htm Agent 1.8 (final) is a mere
$29 at: http://www.forteinc.com/. An established, and very high
quality newsreader. Agent (by the way) has an excellent "plain-text"
interface (this being a legitimate concern regarding compatability,
ASCII diagram integrity, etc...

For servers, Airnews [an excellent server with over 32500 high
content (lots of messages available) groups, with a respectable TWO
WEEKS average retention time on their servers database] "Classic"
service (at $9.95 monthly) is reasonably priced and "content-rich".
It is remarkable the extent to which the (probably 100-200 thousand)
various NNTP news servers *differ* in their level of inter-news-
network "connectivity". Many, many servers have few newsgroups,
*very* few messages posted in those groups, and *lousy* message
retention (try a day or two!). Airnews is one of the best NNTP
servers available (unpaid customer endorsement)! Don't count on your
ISP's newserver to (necessarily) be more than a joke (or to make
available to their users a possible new "rec." or "alt." newsgroup as
is being discussed)!... Expect to pay (at least) $10/month plus the
$30 or so for a high-quality news reader/responder application such
as Forte Agent. They are at: http://www.airnews.net Also, check out
Uncensored News at http://www.uncensored-news.com ($9.95/month).

Two weeks retention (on a NNTP server is about as good as it gets
(from my experience)... Depending on Google's continued fulfillment
of their "promise" (to archive) *may* be a better long term bet than
Yahoo's future status (of which I have no direct info or knowledge as
to its "durability"). Such concerns may be the most profound long-
term.

While "...these new ads are unacceptable", indeed, consider the
possibility of the following two options:

(1) A (probably idiotic and irritating) ad appears at the top-right
of the message display only (so far *not* covering the relevant text
and...ugh...necessitating the "closing" of each the pop-up boxes); or

(2) The necessity for [some person(s)] to actually *moderate* the
group on an ongoing basis, in order to ensure that the all-too-
typical unmoderated of obnoxious, repulsive, avaricious, and
extremely pervasive (meaning very high quantities of such messages
constantly) SPAM which intermingles (and, in many groups, eclipses by
far what may be the relevant posts - if you can find those possibly
relevant posts in a sea of SPAM) with the message headers of
(possible) relevance and interest. Such pervasive (and completely off-
topic) "garbage" SPAM dominating a large majority of "interesting
sounding" groups which I have explored has soured me on Usenet
lately. Filters, etc. are great (if you want to spend lots of your
time constructing as well as endlessly adding to pass/block
parameters in such filters, with only partial success, anyway)...

The best work-around which I came up with is: almost all SPAM is a
relatively SMALL message size. Forte Agent (v1.8) can easily be set
up with a Filter to ignore messages of *less* than a user-settable
size. In the case of a group where, say attachments (such as images,
audio files, etc) accompany most messages of interest to readers of
that newsgroup, such a Filter works wonders (as SPAM does not
typically contain either large message sizes, or attachments, at
all). Lots of groups use *lots* of "bandwidth" and "server "hard-
disk" space on Usenet. This, then, must be a viable option
technically (since many, many Usenet groups allready have such "data
intensive" attachment content, and the better servers still archive
the attachments (for up to the roughly 2 week retention time of
Airnews, and a few of the other high-quality servers (such as
Uncensored-news).

It seems to me that nothing would preclude a newsgroup from having
standard ASCII TXT files (or any other file format preferred) as
attachments (where the "poster" would have full control over the text
formatting of their messages/diagrams). The messages themselves are
plain text as well. IF, by some means such as a standard large (in
bytes) message preamble/postscript inserted into each message and/or
attachment (such that the sum of the message size plus any
attachment's size would exceed a few hundred lines), the Forte Agent
(drop messages/attachments of size less than a few hundred lines in
length)"filtering" technique describe above may well work nicely...

Comments from others who have tried to filter SPAM on Usenet
individually (without the assistance of a full-time moderator who
constantly has to view and edit large quantities of posts, when one
considers the daily quantity of SPAM in addition to relevant posts)
are invited! Perhaps there are tools/services of which I am not aware
which may be able to assist, without group members (or a moderator)
fighting SPAM wars constantly. If such *were* the case, I would have
to say that I would choose to bear with the obnoxious new Yahoo ads
(for free), rather than pay $10/month just to be endlessly frustrated
with endless quantities of "HOT/STEAMING/REVOLTING/MORONIC/AVARICE"
SPAM interspersed along with (a few, one hopes) relevant posts...

Regards, J Gill

--- In tuning@y..., "unidala" <JGill99@i...> wrote:

> An excellent NNTP news reader/responder software interface is Forte
> Agent (1.8 works *great* with Win 9x, 1.9 beta will address some
Win
> 2000 and Win Me "issues", version 2.0 is upcoming (see v1.9 press
> release) at: http://www.forteinc.com/press/agent19.htm). the free
> version (no outbound email, or the useful filters, however) is at:
> http://www.forteinc.com/getfa/getfa.htm Agent 1.8 (final) is a
mere
> $29 at: http://www.forteinc.com/. An established, and very high
> quality newsreader. Agent (by the way) has an excellent "plain-
text"
> interface (this being a legitimate concern regarding compatability,
> ASCII diagram integrity, etc...

Agent is far from the only freeware newreader, for that matter.

> For servers, Airnews [an excellent server with over 32500 high
> content (lots of messages available) groups, with a respectable TWO
> WEEKS average retention time on their servers database] "Classic"
> service (at $9.95 monthly) is reasonably priced and "content-rich".

$0.00 is even better, and unless you insist on binaries, that is all
you need to pay for Usenet access from anywhere in the world--I post
using a free server in Germany, and never have problems.

Expect to pay (at least) $10/month plus the
> $30 or so for a high-quality news reader/responder application such
> as Forte Agent.

See above--neither is necessary.

> Two weeks retention (on a NNTP server is about as good as it gets
> (from my experience)...

I'm on a $0.00 NNTP server and I get quite a lot more than that.

> (2) The necessity for [some person(s)] to actually *moderate* the
> group on an ongoing basis, in order to ensure that the all-too-
> typical unmoderated of obnoxious, repulsive, avaricious, and
> extremely pervasive (meaning very high quantities of such messages
> constantly) SPAM which intermingles (and, in many groups, eclipses
by
> far what may be the relevant posts - if you can find those possibly
> relevant posts in a sea of SPAM) with the message headers of
> (possible) relevance and interest. Such pervasive (and completely
off-
> topic) "garbage" SPAM dominating a large majority of "interesting
> sounding" groups which I have explored has soured me on Usenet
> lately.

There are many unmoderated groups with no spam, so this is
exagerrated. I would definately not suggest calling
it "alt.sex.microtonal", however.

--- In tuning@y..., "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@j...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "unidala" <JGill99@i...> wrote:
>
> > An excellent NNTP news reader/responder software interface is
Forte
> > Agent (1.8 works *great* with Win 9x, 1.9 beta will address some
> Win
> > 2000 and Win Me "issues", version 2.0 is upcoming (see v1.9 press
> > release) at: http://www.forteinc.com/press/agent19.htm). the free
> > version (no outbound email, or the useful filters, however) is
at:
> > http://www.forteinc.com/getfa/getfa.htm Agent 1.8 (final) is a
> mere
> > $29 at: http://www.forteinc.com/. An established, and very high
> > quality newsreader. Agent (by the way) has an excellent "plain-
> text"
> > interface (this being a legitimate concern regarding
compatability,
> > ASCII diagram integrity, etc...
>
> Agent is far from the only freeware newreader, for that matter.
>
> > For servers, Airnews [an excellent server with over 32500 high
> > content (lots of messages available) groups, with a respectable
TWO
> > WEEKS average retention time on their servers database] "Classic"
> > service (at $9.95 monthly) is reasonably priced and "content-
rich".
>
> $0.00 is even better, and unless you insist on binaries, that is
all
> you need to pay for Usenet access from anywhere in the world--I
post
> using a free server in Germany, and never have problems.
>
> Expect to pay (at least) $10/month plus the
> > $30 or so for a high-quality news reader/responder application
such
> > as Forte Agent.
>
> See above--neither is necessary.
>
> > Two weeks retention (on a NNTP server is about as good as it gets
> > (from my experience)...
>
> I'm on a $0.00 NNTP server and I get quite a lot more than that.
>
> > (2) The necessity for [some person(s)] to actually *moderate* the
> > group on an ongoing basis, in order to ensure that the all-too-
> > typical unmoderated of obnoxious, repulsive, avaricious, and
> > extremely pervasive (meaning very high quantities of such
messages
> > constantly) SPAM which intermingles (and, in many groups,
eclipses
> by
> > far what may be the relevant posts - if you can find those
possibly
> > relevant posts in a sea of SPAM) with the message headers of
> > (possible) relevance and interest. Such pervasive (and completely
> off-
> > topic) "garbage" SPAM dominating a large majority of "interesting
> > sounding" groups which I have explored has soured me on Usenet
> > lately.
>
> There are many unmoderated groups with no spam, so this is
> exagerrated. I would definately not suggest calling
> it "alt.sex.microtonal", however.

Gene,

Thanks for your perspective (I had a feeling that my experience
probably did not "sum in all up" with reference to NNTP, by any
means. Any specific free german (or other) servers you would
recommend???

I'm glad that your SPAM exposure seems favorable to mine! Sounds
great to me.

alt.bin.tunin J Gill :)

--- In tuning@y..., "unidala" <JGill99@i...> wrote:

> Thanks for your perspective (I had a feeling that my experience
> probably did not "sum in all up" with reference to NNTP, by any
> means. Any specific free german (or other) servers you would
> recommend???

I'd recommend looking at
http://news.fu-berlin.de/en/register.html

--- In tuning@y..., "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@j...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "unidala" <JGill99@i...> wrote:
>
> > An excellent NNTP news reader/responder software interface is
Forte
> > Agent (1.8 works *great* with Win 9x, 1.9 beta will address some
> Win
> > 2000 and Win Me "issues", version 2.0 is upcoming (see v1.9 press
> > release) at: http://www.forteinc.com/press/agent19.htm). the free
> > version (no outbound email, or the useful filters, however) is
at:
> > http://www.forteinc.com/getfa/getfa.htm Agent 1.8 (final) is a
> mere
> > $29 at: http://www.forteinc.com/. An established, and very high
> > quality newsreader. Agent (by the way) has an excellent "plain-
> text"
> > interface (this being a legitimate concern regarding
compatability,
> > ASCII diagram integrity, etc...

>
>GWS: Agent is far from the only freeware newreader, for that matter.

Gene,

Do you know of any *free* news programs which, like Agent 1.8 ($29),
includes a plain-text based *outgoing* email interface, in order that
the posting of replies to various messages (as well as original
posting) can easily take place, within the same NNTP application?

J Gill

I think if you don't like the advertisements on the web
interface then don't use the web interface! I'm quite
satisfied with Yahoo groups. Could this discussion go to
Metatuning?

Manuel

"unidala" <JGill99@i...> wrote:
>> I've never really used usenet, so I can't say, but on first take I
>> wouldn't prefer it. But these new ads are unacceptable.
>
>
>Regarding my personal experience over the last five years(in
>browsing through, and taking a look at the message content of,
>use net groups), the statement that "spam is a daily occurance"
>rings fairly true for the average group.
>
>An excellent NNTP news reader/responder software interface is
>Forte Agent

Agree- I've been using Agent since 1995. But I've never posted
to the usenet.

> (2) The necessity for [some person(s)] to actually *moderate* the
> group on an ongoing basis, in order to ensure that the all-too-
...

I don't think Academic usenet groups are as bad as all this, but
your two options completely ignored my suggestion of a list member
owned and opperated listserv.

-Carl

--- In tuning@y..., "clumma" <carl@l...> wrote:
> "unidala" <JGill99@i...> wrote:
> >> I've never really used usenet, so I can't say, but on first take I
> >> wouldn't prefer it. But these new ads are unacceptable.
> >
> >
> >Regarding my personal experience over the last five years(in
> >browsing through, and taking a look at the message content of,
> >use net groups), the statement that "spam is a daily occurance"
> >rings fairly true for the average group.
> >
> >An excellent NNTP news reader/responder software interface is
> >Forte Agent
>
> Agree- I've been using Agent since 1995. But I've never posted
> to the usenet.
>
> > (2) The necessity for [some person(s)] to actually *moderate* the
> > group on an ongoing basis, in order to ensure that the all-too-
> ...
>
> I don't think Academic usenet groups are as bad as all this,

JG: I agree with your outlook on that, Carl. The "academic-based" groups do, on average, have less SPAM posted to them.

but
> your two options completely ignored my suggestion of a list member
> owned and opperated listserv.
>
> -Carl

JG: Sorry about that! It sounds like an option, allright!

J Gill :)

On Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 11:26 PM, unidala wrote:

> Any specific free german (or other) servers you would
> recommend???
>

Most decent ISPs provide NNTP access as part of the standard package.
Both earthlink and panix do...

--- In tuning@y..., Terrence Brannon <metaperl@m...> wrote:
>
> On Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 11:26 PM, unidala wrote:
>
> > Any specific free german (or other) servers you would
> > recommend???
> >
>
> Most decent ISPs provide NNTP access as part of the standard package.
> Both earthlink and panix do...

Terrence,

True enough, but (in the case of paid or free NNTP),
there are tens of thousands of various (>40,000)
usenet groups, and if you are utilizing a given
NNTP server, one must ensure that the server's
"news-feed" includes the "newsgroup of interest".
I have found (particularly for the more obscure
newsgroups) that there is a great deal of variation
in whether or not a given groups exists through
such a "news-feed".

This thread you responded to arose out of some
discussions of whether this (or other) tuning
groups should consider "usenet" as an alternative
to "Yahoo Groups".

Not to slight "tuning" as a subject whatsoever,
but it could be that such new (and relatively small
and unknown) usenet "tuning groups" might exist
"under the radar" for some time (particularly
where it comes to the free news-servers) ...

Perhaps others (more familiar with Usenet) would
disagree?

J Gill

--- In tuning@y..., "unidala" <JGill99@i...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_31454.html#32312

> Not to slight "tuning" as a subject whatsoever,
> but it could be that such new (and relatively small
> and unknown) usenet "tuning groups" might exist
> "under the radar" for some time (particularly
> where it comes to the free news-servers) ...
>
> Perhaps others (more familiar with Usenet) would
> disagree?
>
>
> J Gill

Hi J.!

I used to participate in Usenet and I never saw anything like that,
but that was a while ago. There is a pretty well-known composition
forum but it's not as interesting as *this* list... in my view...

J. Pehrson

--- In tuning@y..., "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "unidala" <JGill99@i...> wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_31454.html#32312
>
> > Not to slight "tuning" as a subject whatsoever,
> > but it could be that such new (and relatively small
> > and unknown) usenet "tuning groups" might exist
> > "under the radar" for some time (particularly
> > where it comes to the free news-servers) ...
> >
> > Perhaps others (more familiar with Usenet) would
> > disagree?
> >
> >
> > J Gill
>
> Hi J.!
>
> I used to participate in Usenet and I never saw anything like that,
> but that was a while ago. There is a pretty well-known composition
> forum but it's not as interesting as *this* list... in my view...
>
> J. Pehrson

J Gill: If you mean the absence of certain groups
in the content of various news-feeds, remember ...
if you don't *see* an existing group on the news-
feeds through which you connect via a given server,
then you don't *know* about it's existence to miss it!

J Gill :)

<http://news.cis.dfn.de>

In English and Deutsch.

Hth,
Ertugrul

---
Decode address to reply:
ertugrulinanc-at-yahoo-dot-com

----- Original Message -----
From: Terrence Brannon <metaperl@mac.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 02, 1970 7:47 PM
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Usenet, anyone?

>
> On Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 11:26 PM, unidala wrote:
>
> > Any specific free german (or other) servers you would
> > recommend???
> >
>
> Most decent ISPs provide NNTP access as part of the standard package.
> Both earthlink and panix do...
>
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
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emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

--- In tuning@y..., "unidala" <JGill99@i...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_31454.html#32327

> --- In tuning@y..., "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> > --- In tuning@y..., "unidala" <JGill99@i...> wrote:
> >
> > /tuning/topicId_31454.html#32312
> >
> > > Not to slight "tuning" as a subject whatsoever,
> > > but it could be that such new (and relatively small
> > > and unknown) usenet "tuning groups" might exist
> > > "under the radar" for some time (particularly
> > > where it comes to the free news-servers) ...
> > >
> > > Perhaps others (more familiar with Usenet) would
> > > disagree?
> > >
> > >
> > > J Gill
> >
> > Hi J.!
> >
> > I used to participate in Usenet and I never saw anything like
that,
> > but that was a while ago. There is a pretty well-known
composition
> > forum but it's not as interesting as *this* list... in my view...
> >
> > J. Pehrson
>
>
> J Gill: If you mean the absence of certain groups
> in the content of various news-feeds, remember ...
> if you don't *see* an existing group on the news-
> feeds through which you connect via a given server,
> then you don't *know* about it's existence to miss it!
>
>
> J Gill :)

Don't they make any attempt to "link" to newsfeeds the way people put
their names into search engines... I guess not, by your response.

Thanks JG!

JP