justonic or adaptive tunings

In reply to the justonic thread, J. Pehrson wrote:

>So basically is this a *commercial* version of what John deLaubenfels
>has been trying to do?? I see it recognizes, supposedly, 1500
>chords...

No, if I read the website correctly, justonic is not really "adaptive"
in the sense that JDL's (and also my) system are. In justonic, you
can switch easily between scales as you play. In the adaptive methods,
an algorithm chooses the scale (the pitches) based on some measure of the
musical context.

BTW, if you'd like to hear my latest adaptively tuned composition, its at
the making micro music website on yahoo. Since a couple of people had
trouble downloading from there, I also put it at:

http://eceserv0.ece.wisc.edu/~sethares/mp3s/Local_Anomaly.mp3

Be happy for feedback...

Bill Sethares

--- In tuning@y..., SETHARES@E... wrote:

/tuning/topicId_31173.html#31173

>
> In reply to the justonic thread, J. Pehrson wrote:
>
> >So basically is this a *commercial* version of what John
deLaubenfels has been trying to do?? I see it recognizes,
supposedly, 1500 chords...
>
> No, if I read the website correctly, justonic is not
really "adaptive" in the sense that JDL's (and also my) system are.
In justonic, you can switch easily between scales as you play. In the
adaptive methods, an algorithm chooses the scale (the pitches) based
on some measure of the musical context.
>

Hello Bill!

So, in a sense, the "Justonic" system is somewhat "fixed" and not
truly "adaptive" as in John deLaubenfel's case and in the adaptive
methods that you outline in your _Tuning, Timbre, Spectrum_ Scale.

> BTW, if you'd like to hear my latest adaptively tuned composition,
its at the making micro music website on yahoo. Since a couple of
people had trouble downloading from there, I also put it at:
>
> http://eceserv0.ece.wisc.edu/~sethares/mp3s/Local_Anomaly.mp3
>
> Be happy for feedback...
>
> Bill Sethares

This is just great, Bill. I've been a great fan of your work. One
of my favorite pieces is your _Duet for Morphine and Cymbal_ based
upon, apparently, the morphology of the morphine crystal.

(Over at Tuning Punks:)

http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/72/the_tuning_punks.html

Without getting too overly mauldin or sentimental, I have to say that
your _Tuning, Timbre, Spectrum, Scale_ will *always* be particularly
remembered by me, since I was studying it intently in the
last "innocent" atmosphere on the evening of Monday, September 10,
2001....

Joe Pehrson

From: Rex Weyler
RE: Questions about Justonic software

I consulted with Bill Gannon as he was building this software,
so beware I may be a bit biased about how great it is, but to
answer the questions raised...

1. ... is Justonic" somewhat "fixed" ... and not truly "adaptive"

There may be things you want to do with microtonality that you
couldn't do with the Justonic software, and if you point these out
to me. I will pass on the info to Mr. Gannon at Justonic.

The Justonic system was originally designed for musicians who wanted to
adapt harmonic scales to a keyboard, so the algorithms are mapped to
a twelve-tone keyboard, which has obvious practical value... BUT: because
you can change scales instantly at any time... the choices of tones
are unrestricted.

>From any harmonic scale, the Justonic system creates a 3-dimensional
array of tones based on an original tonic, a current tonal center,
and the selected intervals. Therefore, any "12-tone" scale is actually
made up of several hundred distinct tones in the full array (of 1728
tones, including duplicates).

The software algorithm reads the chord structure at any given point
in a live (or sequenced) performance, and retunes accordingly to keep
everything harmonic. This may seem somewhat fixed, but you can
override this choice manually. Furthermore, the actual choice of
WHICH harmonic tone to use depends on how you define the scales.
You may want a 5/3 sixth for one passage, and a flatter 25/16 sixth
later, and a 1/4-tone flat 13/8 "sixth" etc. We've used this
successfully for playing Arabic pieces which may have 3 different
"sixths" and three different "thirds" in one piece of music.

The system is based entirely on whole-number ratios, not cents, but
there is a ratio-to-cents-to ratio calculator included.

The algorithm knows when you've shifted harmonic centre, so it is
fairly adaptive, but there may be scale choice decisions based on
musical context that the Justonic system does not yet make. I'd be
interested in knowing of any such limitations in the system.

The algorithm will root a chord on its perceived tonic, but the player
or composer can manually root a chord anywhere, on its third for example...
or on any tone whether played or not played.

There are an infinite number of scale choices.

2. ... how did Jerry Eskelin get involved with this?

Gerald Eskelin contacted Bill Gannon several years ago, and they
have been in some discussions about the Justonic system as
it might apply to teaching a cappella singers.

Rex Weyler
rex@shared-vision.com

--- In tuning@y..., "Rex Weyler" <rex@s...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_31173.html#31273

>
> From: Rex Weyler
> RE: Questions about Justonic software
>

Thank you so much, Rex, for your response, and I should also add that
the Justonic software is really pretty reasonably priced.

However, the person that you need to discuss this with is John
deLaubenfels. I would be *very* interested in following a discussion
between you and him.

However, he seems to be away at the moment, but hopefully he will
return and there will be more informed discussion on this topic.

John's system is *quite* involved, and it would be interesting to
compare it to Justonic in the specifics, if I could follow them.

best,

Joseph Pehrson

Bill!
Greatly enjoyed this composition which transcends its tuning aspects by being an
accomplished gem. Always look forward to hear what you are doing. Despite the poetic gifts of
those who have described it , it was a surprise and not quite what i had surmised .
It seems to me that a form of adaptive tuning is only feasible by electronics and therein
lies something for it to explore that acoustic instruments can do only by intuition and without
the control one can do here. Systems with large number of tones is another area feasible for
those non acoustic instruments and always enjoy when people do the things i cannot do at all. In
fact, it is what i wait for.
Sorry for the delay on feedback on this. downloading usually waits till late evening when such
things are easier

SETHARES@ECESERV0.ECE.WISC.EDU wrote:

>
> http://eceserv0.ece.wisc.edu/~sethares/mp3s/Local_Anomaly.mp3
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

--- In tuning@y..., "Rex Weyler" <rex@s...> wrote:
>
> From: Rex Weyler
> RE: Questions about Justonic software

Hi Rex,

I've asked these questions about Justonic before, and I've gotten
answers, but I'd be curious to hear yours.

You're no doubt familiar with the problems of commatic pitch drift
and commatic pitch shifts.

I wonder how you, as a musician using the Justonic software, if you
were seeking to impart a feeling of contrapuntal melodic integrity
while maintaining just harmony, would handle progressions like
Benedetti's famous two? One goes like this:

G----A-----------G-----G
D----------E-----------D
G----D-----C-----------D

Perhaps Margo can supply the other one. Also I-IV-ii-V-I, I-vi-ii-V-
I, and similar candidates in other modes.

-Paul