Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning New member and HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELP

James!
Welcome!
Can't help much with the tech end of things but 31.41, 53, and 72 divisions of the octaves will
give you better approx. to the notes produced in overtone signing. I bet someone at
/makemicromusic/ would be able to help you.
(don't let Paul talk you into 22 Equal)

James Richmond wrote:

> Hi,
>
> New member here.
> Australian guitarist/throat singer living in London.
> Hi there.
>
> I am trying to develop a 24 tone piano patch for Logic Audio and I am
> absolutely stumped.
> Basically I want to divide an octave into 24 notes, or quarter tones using
> Logic Audio's environment.
> If anyone has any ideas on how to do this then please let me know.
>
> Cheers,
>
> James Richmond

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

🔗paulerlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

--- In tuning@y..., Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
> James!
> Welcome!
> Can't help much with the tech end of things but 31.41, 53, and 72
divisions of the octaves will
> give you better approx. to the notes produced in overtone signing.
I bet someone at
> /makemicromusic/ would be able to help
you.
> (don't let Paul talk you into 22 Equal)

Look out for Paul! No, seriously, 22-equal isn't the best for super-
accurate overtone singing, but it'll still do far better than 24. 53
will let you down for the 7th and especially the 11th partial. 46-
equal I found is a good way to combine Indian tuning with an overtone
series through the 12th partial. I wouldn't want to put all 46 notes
on a piano though!

Why not tune it to an overtone series? Do you change tonics?

Cheers,
Paul

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>

Paul!
Glad you took it in the humor it was meant. I was hoping for you possibly responding---
And don't let kraig talk you into a Combination Product Set :)

paulerlich wrote:

> --- In tuning@y..., Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
> > James!
> > Welcome!
> > Can't help much with the tech end of things but 31.41, 53, and 72
> divisions of the octaves will
> > give you better approx. to the notes produced in overtone signing.
> I bet someone at
> > /makemicromusic/ would be able to help
> you.
> > (don't let Paul talk you into 22 Equal)
>
> Look out for Paul! No, seriously, 22-equal isn't the best for super-
> accurate overtone singing, but it'll still do far better than 24. 53
> will let you down for the 7th and especially the 11th partial. 46-
> equal I found is a good way to combine Indian tuning with an overtone
> series through the 12th partial. I wouldn't want to put all 46 notes
> on a piano though!
>
> Why not tune it to an overtone series? Do you change tonics?
>
> Cheers,
> Paul
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
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-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

🔗Rex Weyler <rex@shared-vision.com>

RE: James Richmond [mailto:Lotusmajordomo@btinternet.com]

James,

As you heard from Kraig, 31 ... 72 etc... tones make for better
harmonic divisions... The problem with so-called "1/4-tones" is that
these don't necessarily align with any natural harmonic...

I highly recommend checking out the Justonic Pitch Palette
software that allows you to map ANY # of tones to an octave...
the Justonic software does this by allowing you to define any
# of scales for any intervals you want, then mapping all these
scales to your keyboard (or sequencer), and then allowing you
to switch scales on the fly any time you want... thus any
key on a synth can "mean" any interval (note, tone) you want
it to by changing the "scale" that's mapped to the keyboard.

The Justonic system is based on pure harmonic intervals, 3/2,
5/4, 7/5, 11/8 ... etc. NOT based on "cents" divisions of
tempered tones... so the whole thing is pure harmonic if you
want it that way...

You can build any scale you want with this software and use as
many tones per octave as you want. There's a short book in the
software package that explains it all.

The website: www.justonic.com
email: billg@justonic.com

best of luck.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rex Weyler
mailto:weyler@telus.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hi,

New member here.
Australian guitarist/throat singer living in London.
Hi there.

I am trying to develop a 24 tone piano patch for Logic Audio and I am
absolutely stumped.
Basically I want to divide an octave into 24 notes, or quarter tones using
Logic Audio's environment.
If anyone has any ideas on how to do this then please let me know.

Cheers,

James Richmond

You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
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🔗jpehrson2 <jpehrson@rcn.com>

--- In tuning@y..., "Rex Weyler" <rex@s...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_31121.html#31128

>
> RE: James Richmond [mailto:Lotusmajordomo@b...]
>
> James,
>
> As you heard from Kraig, 31 ... 72 etc... tones make for better
> harmonic divisions... The problem with so-called "1/4-tones" is that
> these don't necessarily align with any natural harmonic...
>

Actually, it's interesting how many well known people in the field of
microtonality have actually tried to approximate the overtone series
using 1/4 tones... mostly early in their careers. Both Lou Harrison
and Ivor Darreg come to mind...

Generally, people find something better later on..

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>

Joseph!
I am sure they might have appreciated them being steered in the right direction, if such
animals would have been around at the time.

jpehrson2 wrote:

>
> Actually, it's interesting how many well known people in the field of
> microtonality have actually tried to approximate the overtone series
> using 1/4 tones... mostly early in their careers. Both Lou Harrison
> and Ivor Darreg come to mind...
>
> Generally, people find something better later on..
>
> JP
>
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

🔗James Richmond <Lotusmajordomo@btinternet.com>

Hi people,

This is a general response to all that responded to my original mail.
Can I say:
HOLY FUCK!
Just to let you know: I've been in the music industry professionally for 12
years, play a variety of instruments, have toured nationally and considered
myself a member of a fairly well schooled, knowledgeable and erudite
collective of displaced musical intellectuals.
Having grandstanded here for a second I have a couple of points.

Firstly, what the hell are you talking about? Secondly, what language are
you talking. Thirdly, is there a microtonal dictionary? Fourthly pass the
vodka. Fifthly, and the tonic. Speaking of tonics...er... right.... Sixthly,
dang, i think I'll deal with the first 5, firstly.

I can see that I have lumbered in on a dense and specific subculture. Lets
see if I can learn by osmosis.

I honestly hadn't considered the idea of anything other than divisions of
notes other than semitones. 45th double fluffy crattor wibble wuckles ahoy,
I guess.

Um... er... um... yes.

Thanks for the input. I'll have a think and see if I can make sense of it
when the top of my head returns to its rightful place.

Many thanks,

James Richmond

> Joseph!
> I am sure they might have appreciated them being steered in the right
direction, if such
> animals would have been around at the time.
>
> jpehrson2 wrote:
>
> >
> > Actually, it's interesting how many well known people in the field of
> > microtonality have actually tried to approximate the overtone series
> > using 1/4 tones... mostly early in their careers. Both Lou Harrison
> > and Ivor Darreg come to mind...
> >
> > Generally, people find something better later on..
> >
> > JP
> >
> >
>
> -- Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
> http://www.anaphoria.com
>
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
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> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>

🔗jpehrson2 <jpehrson@rcn.com>

--- In tuning@y..., Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_31121.html#31130

> Joseph!
> I am sure they might have appreciated them being steered in the
right direction, if such
> animals would have been around at the time.
>

Absolutely, Kraig!

That's pretty much proven by the fact that they did different things
later on....

🔗jonszanto <JSZANTO@ADNC.COM>

James,

--- In tuning@y..., "James Richmond" <Lotusmajordomo@b...> wrote:
> Can I say:
> HOLY FUCK!

Apparantly you can. Many of us like spunk in their correspondents!

> I can see that I have lumbered in on a dense and specific
> subculture.

You don't know the 1/2 of it... but if you really want to know, there
are more people here, and on the off-shoot lists, than pretty much
anywhere else. And the knowledge-base is pretty staggering. Me, I
just stumble along, too...

As far as terminology, maybe one place you can start would be at Joe
Monzo's Tuning Dictionary:

http://www.ixpres.com/interval/dict/

Joe has done everyone a great service and put most of the verbiage,
including terms that are just coming into existence, in a fairly
usable online dictionary. If nothing else, when someone answers you
with a term you haven't heard before, chances are it will be there.

Try and focus the questions as much as possible, that will help
people focus their answers. This main list is broad but focuses on
many of the real tuning 'issues'; if you want to hear from people who
work with this on a somewhat pragmatic level, you can try over at
Making Microtonal Music:

/makemicromusic/

...and if you want to get into the mathematics involved in developing
some of the alternate tuning systems, try the tuning-math group:

/tuning-math/

Both of the precedings are sort-of subsets of this main list, and
most of the people there are still subscribed here.

OK, put the top of your head back on.

Cheers,
Jon

🔗paulerlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

--- In tuning@y..., "James Richmond" <Lotusmajordomo@b...> wrote:

> I honestly hadn't considered the idea of anything other than
divisions of
> notes other than semitones.

72-tone equal temperament will fall into that category, and _lots_ of
people around the world use it -- it's got the harmonic series super-
accurate like.

Microtonal dictionary:

http://www.ixpres.com/interval/dict/index.htm

🔗hbakshi1 <hareshbakshi@hotmail.com>

🔗jpehrson2 <jpehrson@rcn.com>

--- In tuning@y..., "Rex Weyler" <rex@s...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_31121.html#31128

>
> I highly recommend checking out the Justonic Pitch Palette
> software that allows you to map ANY # of tones to an octave...
> the Justonic software does this by allowing you to define any
> # of scales for any intervals you want, then mapping all these
> scales to your keyboard (or sequencer), and then allowing you
> to switch scales on the fly any time you want... thus any
> key on a synth can "mean" any interval (note, tone) you want
> it to by changing the "scale" that's mapped to the keyboard.
>
> The Justonic system is based on pure harmonic intervals, 3/2,
> 5/4, 7/5, 11/8 ... etc. NOT based on "cents" divisions of
> tempered tones... so the whole thing is pure harmonic if you
> want it that way...
>
> You can build any scale you want with this software and use as
> many tones per octave as you want. There's a short book in the
> software package that explains it all.
>
> The website: www.justonic.com

So basically is this a *commercial* version of what John deLaubenfels
has been trying to do?? I see it recognizes, supposedly, 1500
chords...

And how did Jerry Eskelin get involved with this?? :)

J. Pehrson

🔗paulerlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

🔗hbakshi1 <hareshbakshi@hotmail.com>

--- In tuning@y..., "paulerlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "hbakshi1" <hareshbakshi@h...> wrote:
> > --- In tuning@y..., "paulerlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> >
> > >>>> 46-> equal I found is a good way to combine Indian tuning
> with
> > an overtone series through the 12th partial. Why not tune it to
> an
> > overtone series? Do you change tonics? >>>>
> >
> > Hello Paul, Can you please elaborate on this so that I can grasp
it
> > (remembering that I am a neophyte)?
> >
> The first part, the second part, or both? >>>>

Hi Paul, both.

Thanks, Haresh.

🔗paulerlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

--- In tuning@y..., "hbakshi1" <hareshbakshi@h...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "paulerlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> > --- In tuning@y..., "hbakshi1" <hareshbakshi@h...> wrote:
> > > --- In tuning@y..., "paulerlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> > >
> > > >>>> 46-> equal I found is a good way to combine Indian
tuning
> > with
> > > an overtone series through the 12th partial. Why not tune it
to
> > an
> > > overtone series? Do you change tonics? >>>>
> > >
> > > Hello Paul, Can you please elaborate on this so that I can
grasp
> it
> > > (remembering that I am a neophyte)?
> > >
> > The first part, the second part, or both? >>>>
>
> Hi Paul, both.

On the first part -- I see the ancient heptatonic ma-grama and
sa-grama, along with their allowed alteration, along with a
couple of modern additions, to form the so-called "Modern Indian
Gamut" which, based on my readings of Chakraborty,etc., seem
to imply that the diaschisma is ignored or tempered out. Thus a
5-limit interpretation of the gamut would seem to want a
diaschismic temperament, a category which includes ETs such
as 34-tET and 46-tET. Of these, 46-tET is far more promising for
7- and 11-limit harmony. Beyond this, I can refer you to the
discussions about the Shrutar that Dave Keenan and I had -- I
believe we were still discussing it on this list when 46-tET came
up in this context.

On the second part, the original poster said he (she) was doing
harmonic singing, so, in the absense of modulation, I didn't see
any need to use an ET, and thus suggested using a harmonic
series tuning instead.

Further questions?