Re : The C-Fb-G major triad: Pythag-Just tuning

> From: "Danny Wier" <dawier@yahoo.com>
> Subject: The C-Fb-G major triad: Pythag-Just tuning
>
> I had to come back to the list; I came up with something just now. Again,
> it might have already been done before, but here it goes.
>

I'm not sure what is different about what you are looking at here
from schismic tunings, check Grahams page for information on
those, and there may be some information at www.medievel.org
from Margo.

Regarding naming conventions, I believe that I get the namings
just treating it according to the pythagorean diatonic.

i.e., step sizes are 9949994 and '#' is 9-4=5 and flat is just the
negative of that.

I only tried it for some of the notes but it seemed to give the
desired results.

Speaking of 53, I copied down some notes I took at a Turkish
music website which stated that there were four types of
alterations. I don't remember the names but the two sharps were
at 1/9 and 5/9 of a tone, and the two flats were at -5/9 and -1/9
of a tone. They referred to the large ones as being the same as
those in the West (a pythagorean mindset). The little ones looked
too small for me... especially having just recently played with
a saz player where the added notes seemed to come from 24eq.

Bob Valentine

--- In tuning@y..., Robert C Valentine <BVAL@I...> wrote:

> Speaking of 53, I copied down some notes I took at a Turkish
> music website which stated that there were four types of
> alterations. I don't remember the names but the two sharps were
> at 1/9 and 5/9 of a tone, and the two flats were at -5/9 and -1/9
> of a tone. They referred to the large ones as being the same as
> those in the West (a pythagorean mindset). The little ones looked
> too small for me... especially having just recently played with
> a saz player where the added notes seemed to come from 24eq.
>
> Bob Valentine

Was this a _Turkish_ saz player?

There are many tuning cultures in the Middle East -- a rough 24-tET
is most common, while Turkish tuning is given as 53-tET, with makamat
as follows:

9 8 5 9 9 4 4 5 Makam Rast
9 4 9 9 4 9 9 Makam Nahawand, Fifty-three tone Minor
9 8 5 9 8 1 4 4 5 Makam Yegah
9 8 5 9 9 8 5 Makam Sazkar
9 4 9 9 4 9 4 5 Makam Sultaniyegah, Ruhnevaz
4 9 9 9 4 9 9 Makam Ferahnuma, Askefza, Acem Kurdi
5 12 5 9 5 8 4 5 Makam Sedaraban
8 5 9 8 5 9 9 Makam Huseyniasiran
5 12 5 9 4 4 5 4 5 Makam Suzidil
9 9 4 4 5 9 9 4 Makam Acemasiran
9 5 4 4 4 5 5 13 4 Makam Sevkefza
5 9 8 5 9 9 4 4 Makam Iraq
5 9 8 5 4 5 9 4 4 Makam Evic, Segah
5 9 8 1 4 4 5 9 4 4 Makam Ferahnak
5 13 4 9 5 13 4 Makam Evicara (Evcara)
9 9 4 9 9 4 5 4 Makam Mahur
9 5 4 4 4 5 9 4 5 4 Makam Suzidilara
9 9 4 4 5 9 4 4 5 Makam Buzurk
5 4 4 4 5 9 4 9 9 Makam Suzinak
5 12 5 5 4 4 4 5 9 Makam Zirguleli Suzinak
5 12 5 9 5 3 5 4 5 Makam Hicazkar
4 1 4 4 4 5 9 4 4 5 9 Makam Kurdilihicazkar
9 4 9 5 4 4 5 8 5 Makam Nihavend (Nihavent)
9 5 12 5 5 12 5 Makam Neveser
9 5 12 5 9 4 4 5 Makam Nikriz
8 5 9 9 4 4 5 9 Makam Huseyni, Muhayyer, Neva, Gerdaniye, Tahir
8 5 9 5 4 4 4 5 9 Makam Gulizar, Beyati (Bayati), Karcigar
8 5 9 9 4 9 9 Makam Ussak, Acem
8 1 4 4 5 9 4 9 9 Makam Isfahan
4 4 1 4 9 4 5 4 9 9 Makam Kurdi
9 4 9 5 4 4 4 5 4 5 Makam Buselik (Puselik)
9 4 9 9 4 13 5 Makam Sehnaz Buselik
8 5 9 5 3 1 4 4 5 9 Makam Arazbar
5 12 5 9 4 4 5 9 Makam Hicaz, Uzzal, Humayun
5 12 5 9 4 1 8 4 5 Makam Zirgule
5 12 5 9 4 1 3 5 4 5 Makam Sehnaz
8 5 5 13 4 9 9 Makam Saba, Sunbule
8 5 5 13 4 4 5 5 4 Makam Kucek
8 5 5 4 9 4 4 5 4 5 Makam Eski Sipihr
4 4 5 4 1 13 4 9 9 Makam Dugah
8 5 9 4 5 4 1 8 4 5 Makam Hisar
5 3 5 4 5 4 5 4 1 3 5 4 5 Makam Yeni Sipihr
9 8 5 9 5 8 9 Makam Nisaburek
5 9 5 12 5 9 4 4 Makam Huzzam
9 5 8 9 5 9 4 4 Makam Mustear
5 9 8 1 4 9 9 8 Makam Maye (Yeni Maye)
1 4 9 8 5 9 9 3 5 Makam Vechi Arazbar
8 5 9 4 9 9 4 5 Makam Nisabur
5 13 4 9 5 12 5 Makam Cargah I
9 9 4 9 9 9 4 Makam Cargah II, Zavil, Fifty-three tone Major
5 8 13 5 5 8 4 5 Makam Araban
9 8 5 9 9 5 8 Makam Urmawi

In a message dated 12/3/01 8:55:51 AM Eastern Standard Time,
paul@stretch-music.com writes:

> There are many tuning cultures in the Middle East -- a rough 24-tET
> is most common, while Turkish tuning is given as 53-tET, with makamat
> as follows:
>
>

Paul, I don't know if you have ever read my article "Maqam" in PITCH I:2. I
tried to flush out the main distinctions as I could uncover them (numbering 5
large tuning-distinctive practices). Regarding the Turks and 53, it seems to
me that all 53 are never used. Couldn't you come up with a number more
accurate to actual practice?

Best, Johnny Reinhard

--- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 12/3/01 8:55:51 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> paul@s... writes:
>
>
> > There are many tuning cultures in the Middle East -- a rough 24-
tET
> > is most common, while Turkish tuning is given as 53-tET, with
makamat
> > as follows:
> >
> >
>
> Paul, I don't know if you have ever read my article "Maqam" in
PITCH I:2.

Yes, I have.

> I
> tried to flush out the main distinctions as I could uncover them
(numbering 5
> large tuning-distinctive practices). Regarding the Turks and 53,
it seems to
> me that all 53 are never used.

Of course not! Nor did Telemann use all 55!

> Couldn't you come up with a number more
> accurate to actual practice?

Do the mode lists I cited give accurate depictions of the Turkish
classical makamat, or are they out of tune?

In a message dated 12/3/01 9:16:27 AM Eastern Standard Time,
paul@stretch-music.com writes:

> Do the mode lists I cited give accurate depictions of the Turkish
> classical makamat, or are they out of tune?
>
>
>

Ah, they are in tune BUT wrong in number. Would the 21 spiraled fifths be
enough for the Turkish maqamat?

Johnny Reinhard

>Ah, they are in tune BUT wrong in number.  Would the 21
>spiraled fifths be enough for the Turkish maqamat?

Yekta Bey used a cycle of 24 fifths as the theoretical gamut, see
turkish_24.scl

Manuel

--- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 12/3/01 9:16:27 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> paul@s... writes:
>
>
> > Do the mode lists I cited give accurate depictions of the Turkish
> > classical makamat, or are they out of tune?
> >
> >
> >
>
> Ah, they are in tune BUT wrong in number.

What do you mean, wrong in number? What if a musician wishes to
understand the tunings in terms of some smallest "atom"? Seems like a
reasonable way to understand tunings, doesn't it? We use cents
because we are familiar with 12-tET . . . the Turks use 53 and 53*20
because it's more meaningful for them.

> Would the 21 spiraled fifths be
> enough for the Turkish maqamat?

Someone would have to check . . . Manuel?

Paul!
The 53 occurs in much more places and goes back to the middle ages with the 17 when found
being a subset of this 53 as a reference.

Paul Erlich wrote:

> There are many tuning cultures in the Middle East -- a rough 24-tET
> is most common, while Turkish tuning is given as 53-tET, with makamat
> as follows:

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

17 of the 53 was

Afmmjr@aol.com wrote:

> Paul, I don't know if you have ever read my article "Maqam" in PITCH
> I:2. I tried to flush out the main distinctions as I could uncover
> them (numbering 5 large tuning-distinctive practices). Regarding the
> Turks and 53, it seems to me that all 53 are never used. Couldn't you
> come up with a number more accurate to actual practice?

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

Lou Harrison has examples of it taken to 24 steps. that is 24 fifths

Afmmjr@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 12/3/01 9:16:27 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> paul@stretch-music.com writes:
>
>
>
>> Do the mode lists I cited give accurate depictions of the Turkish
>> classical makamat, or are they out of tune?
>>
>
> Ah, they are in tune BUT wrong in number. Would the 21 spiraled
> fifths be enough for the Turkish maqamat?
>
> Johnny Reinhard
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

Thanks, Manuel. And isn't it now thought by the list that Telemann's tuning theories would apply to music to be composed by future generations, and not his own original compositions?

Johnny

Paul, so you are saying that it is emic-Turkish to use 53 as the full set of Turkish numbers. Kraig, too? What is the document, Kraig (I'm curious).

JR

Paul, so you are saying that it is emic-Turkish to use 53 as the full set of Turkish numbers. Kraig, too? What is the document, Kraig (I'm curious).

JR

--- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:

> Thanks, Manuel. And isn't it now thought by the list that
Telemann's tuning theories would apply to music to be composed by
future generations, and not his own original compositions?
>
> Johnny

Both. Sure, Telemann didn't use all 55, or even half that many. But
55-tET gives the correct _tuning_ for the notes that were used, which
is why so many teachers in the 18th century (Tosi, Quantz, Leopold
Mozart . . .) made reference to it.

In the 18th century, at least in parts of Europe, 55-tET would allow
any conceivable notated musical piece to be realized, no matter how
distant the modulation. Today, 1200-tET serves as your way to access
all conceivable pitch possibilities. In neither case must all the
pitches be used.

--- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> Paul, so you are saying that it is emic-Turkish to use 53 as the >
full set of Turkish numbers.

What does "emic-Turkish" mean?

Emic -- as opposed to Ettic -- is the point of view of a particular musical culture (rather than Western imposed). Even a Turkish scholar can use an Ettic theory if they are trained in Western universities.

JR

So, essentially, any use of a number to include all useable musical tones of a system is arbitrary, unless it is instrumentally constrained as a result of the instrument's design.

JR

--- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> Emic -- as opposed to Ettic -- is the point of view of a particular
musical culture (rather than Western imposed).

Yes, 53 is emic-Turkish, according to many sources. The source
appears to be the medieval Arabic theorists who extended Pythagorean
to 17 tones. We in the West are only aware of Pythagoras and his
musical theories because they flourished in medieval Arabic culture,
and then were brought to Europe -- where music had long been
developing without knowing of Pythagoras (though perhaps arriving at
the same kind of tuning). The Turks, not the West, are the true heirs
of Pythagoras.

--- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:

> So, essentially, any use of a number to include all useable musical
tones of a system is arbitrary, unless it is instrumentally
constrained as a result of the instrument's design.
>
> JR

I disagree. 1200 is arbitrary, yes. But 53-tET gives a far better fit
to Pythagorean/Turkish/schismic tuning than any other ET with a
reasonable number of notes, so it's not arbitrary. Similarly 55-tET
for Telemann.

Paul:
The Turks, not the West, are the true heirs
of Pythagoras.

Might it not be the other way around. There is no evidence that Pythagorous is the origin of cycling fifths for a tuning. Might not it originate with the Turks, or before them, the Chinese?

JR

In a message dated Mon, 3 Dec 2001 12:36:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Paul Erlich" <paul@stretch-music.com> writes:

> --- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:
>
> > So, essentially, any use of a number to include all useable musical
> tones of a system is arbitrary, unless it is instrumentally

> constrained as a result of the instrument's design.
> >
> > JR
>
> I disagree. 1200 is arbitrary, yes. But 53-tET gives a far better fit
> to Pythagorean/Turkish/schismic tuning than any other ET with a
> reasonable number of notes, so it's not arbitrary. Similarly 55-tET
> for Telemann.
>

Paul, my point relates to the use of 43 tones for Partch (being arbitrary). For most people, the number of tones used is the larger consideration. However, we as tuning specialists choose a large consumate number tht will better polish the intervals, but ignore the practicality of "just how many notes there are."

Recently, during a lecture I participated in during the Critical Band to U. of Manitoba, we had a large group of musical architects in a room. The lecture mentioned ratios and cents, with illustrations of the musical intervals using guitar, chromelodeon, and voice. Yet, other Critical Banders spoke about "fifths" all the time as if everyone knew that these "fifths" were the 3/2 interval of 701.955 etc. cents. I spoke up about it and everyone seemed releaved that the fifthness of the fifth was a separate meaning from both ratios and cents: it is a fifth tone of a 7 tone scale, fully antiquated to the new music composed.

Best, Johnny Reinhard
>
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--- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> Paul:
> The Turks, not the West, are the true heirs
> of Pythagoras.
>
> Might it not be the other way around. There is no evidence that
Pythagorous is the origin of cycling fifths for a tuning. Might not
it originate with the Turks, or before them, the Chinese?
>
> JR

Yes, the Chinese independently arrived at it, and earlier. But for
Turkey one can trace a historical path back through the citations and
it seems Ancient Greece is indeed the source in this instance.
Geographically, this is not too surprising!

--- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> In a message dated Mon, 3 Dec 2001 12:36:58 PM Eastern Standard
Time, "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> writes:
>
> > --- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> >
> > > So, essentially, any use of a number to include all useable
musical
> > tones of a system is arbitrary, unless it is instrumentally
>
>
>
> > constrained as a result of the instrument's design.
> > >
> > > JR
> >
> > I disagree. 1200 is arbitrary, yes. But 53-tET gives a far better
fit
> > to Pythagorean/Turkish/schismic tuning than any other ET with a
> > reasonable number of notes, so it's not arbitrary. Similarly 55-
tET
> > for Telemann.
> >
>
>
> Paul, my point relates to the use of 43 tones for Partch (being >
arbitrary).

How did Partch of all things get into this??? That's a completely
different kind of issue. Let's stick to Turk-53 and Telemann-55 for
this discussion, OK?

>For most people, the number of tones used is the larger
>consideration.

Lots of musicians like to understand intervals in terms of a
smallest "atom". This is a completely practical consideration, like
your use of cents, but less arbitrary.

If I gave you a microtonal composition, notated in cents, you
wouldn't care one bit how many tones I used.

>However, we as tuning specialists choose a large consumate number
>tht will better polish the intervals, but ignore the practicality
>of "just how many notes there are."

Again, who cares how many of the notes Telemann actually used in a
particular composition? 13? 14? 15? 16? Or in the sum total of his
compositions? 23? 25? 26? 28? _That's_ arbitrary. The _relationships_
of the notes he laid out -- whole tone = 9 parts, diatonic semitone =
5 parts -- _that's_ what's useful for musicians. Similarly, in
Turkish music, the melodic steps used come from a fairly restricted
set: 4 parts, 5 parts, 8 parts, 9 parts, 12 parts, 13 parts.

I would agree that no musician should have to count to 53 or 55 when
using these systems. But saying "schismic-53" and "meantone-55" are
the simplest ways of describing these practical reckoning systems.

>Recently, during a lecture I participated in during the Critical
>Band to U. of Manitoba, we had a large group of musical architects
>in a room. The lecture mentioned ratios and cents, with
>illustrations of the musical intervals using guitar, chromelodeon,
>and voice. Yet, other Critical Banders spoke about "fifths" all the
>time as if everyone knew that these "fifths" were the 3/2 interval
>of 701.955 etc. cents. I spoke up about it and everyone seemed
>releaved that the fifthness of the fifth was a separate meaning from
>both ratios and cents: it is a fifth tone of a 7 tone scale, fully
>antiquated to the new music composed.

I don't see how this applies.

Johnny !
I would assume Pythag learned it in the east somewhere and merely brought it to Greece!

Afmmjr@aol.com wrote:

> There is no evidence that Pythagorous is the origin of cycling fifths for a tuning. Might not it originate with the Turks, or before them, the Chinese?
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

--- In tuning@y..., Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:

> I would assume Pythag learned it in the east somewhere and >
merely brought it to Greece!

Very probable, if Pythagoras was even an individual with this
knowledge rather than merely a name attached to it by later Greeks.

--- In tuning@y..., Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:

> I would assume Pythag learned it in the east somewhere and >
merely brought it to Greece!
Paul:
Very probable, if Pythagoras was even an individual with this
knowledge rather than merely a name attached to it by later Greeks.

Johnny: Since the Turks began North of the Chinese, why couldn't they receive tuning info from the Chinese. And since Pythagorous has no root connection with spirals of fifths, why presume he transported information on spiraling fifths to the Greek and Italian worlds?

Johnny

--- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:

> Johnny: Since the Turks began North of the Chinese, why couldn't
they receive tuning info from the Chinese.

Maybe they didn't, but this isn't documented.

>And since Pythagorous has no root connection with spirals of fifths,
>why presume he transported information on spiraling fifths to the
>Greek and Italian worlds?

The point is that medieval Arabic theorists had studied the tunings
of the Pythagoreans and based their ideas on that, and modern Turkish
theory is based on medieval Arabic theory. The true cultural
influences may very well have come from elsewhere, but the "book
learning" associated with mathematical theories of tuning (which may
have been very far removed from practice at various times) can be
traced, I believe, to the ancient Greeks. That's all I'm claiming.

Hi Johnny,

> From: <Afmmjr@aol.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 10:19 AM
> Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Re : The C-Fb-G major triad: Pythag-Just tuning
>
>
> Paul:
> > The Turks, not the West, are the true heirs
> > of Pythagoras.
>
> Might it not be the other way around. There is no
> evidence that Pythagorous is the origin of cycling fifths
> for a tuning. Might not it originate with the Turks,
> or before them, the Chinese?

I would concede that both of your scenarios are possible, even
probable... but would argue that the "Pythagorean" cycle-of-5ths
originated with the Sumerians.

love / peace / harmony ...

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

In a message dated 12/3/01 4:16:00 PM Eastern Standard Time,
joemonz@yahoo.com writes:

> I would concede that both of your scenarios are possible, even
> probable... but would argue that the "Pythagorean" cycle-of-5ths
> originated with the Sumerians.
>
>
>
>

Thanks, Monz, for moving the ball closer to court. However, while I agree
that the Babylonians used spirals of fifths, I suspect the Sumerians were
using JI like the Greeks. They both had the aulos and I believe Ben Hume has
successfully built a Sumerian Aulos which was pitch to a Pythagorean minor
scale.

The Turks were involved with Chinese theory deeply and it may be more likely
that the principles were diffused from the Chinese to the Turks.

Best, Johnny Reinhard

Johnny!
A confession here. I was at the UCLA library before my radio show looking around and ran across this turkish book 1/2 before i had to leave . so i
xeroxed as much as i could as there was about a 100 pages i needed to get. well as fate would have it the title page did not come out clearly and I have
not made it back.
What i think it says is
KARADENIZ (which might be the univerity)
TURK MUSIKISININ NAZARIYI UI
TSASLARI M____________
I Could send you a PDF file of some of the relavent pages on your request until i am able to get back to the library. The funny thing is there is no copy
of this book in their music library or in their ethnomusicology library and if the other two hadn't had been closed , i would not have run across it

Afmmjr@aol.com wrote:

> Kraig, too? What is the document, Kraig (I'm curious).
>
> JR
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

Thanks, Kraig.

While my heart is still beating normally, I am excited to find hard evidence
on the Turkish beliefs of their system.

The nonsense about Pythagorus is beautifully illustrated in a chapter on the
subject by Sieman Terpstra. It's like claiming Bach is the herald of 12-tone
equal temperament. There is nothing pointing to this at all.

Thanks, Johnny Reinhard

Hi Kraig,

> From: Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 2:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Re : The C-Fb-G major triad: Pythag-Just tuning
>
>
> Johnny!
> A confession here. I was at the UCLA library before my
> radio show looking around and ran across this turkish book
> 1/2 [hour?] before i had to leave . so i xeroxed as much as
> i could as there was about a 100 pages i needed to get. well
> as fate would have it the title page did not come out clearly
> and I have not made it back.
> What i think it says is
> KARADENIZ (which might be the univerity)
> TURK MUSIKISININ NAZARIYI UI
> TSASLARI M____________
> I Could send you a PDF file of some of the relavent pages on your
> request until i am able to get back to the library. The funny thing
> is there is no copy of this book in their music library or in their
> ethnomusicology library and if the other two hadn't had been closed,
> i would not have run across it

I too am very interested in this!!

Can you make the PDF public, on the anaphoria website or in the
Tuning List Files section? Or at least send me a copy too. Thanks!

I believe "Karadeniz" is Turkish for "Black Sea", which forms the
border of much of Turkey today.

-monz

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Johnny!
Where are the finger holes on this!

Afmmjr@aol.com wrote:

> They both had the aulos and I believe Ben Hume has successfully built
> a Sumerian Aulos which was pitch to a Pythagorean minor scale.
>
> Best, Johnny Reinhard
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

Johnny!
I will try to get out there soon and get the info for you and will send
some stuff as soon as i can!

Afmmjr@aol.com wrote:

> Thanks, Kraig.
>
> While my heart is still beating normally, I am excited to find hard
> evidence on the Turkish beliefs of their system.
>
> The nonsense about Pythagorus is beautifully illustrated in a chapter
> on the subject by Sieman Terpstra. It's like claiming Bach is the
> herald of 12-tone equal temperament. There is nothing pointing to
> this at all.
>
> Thanks, Johnny Reinhard
>
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

From: "Paul Erlich" <paul@stretch-music.com>

> There are many tuning cultures in the Middle East -- a rough 24-tET
> is most common, while Turkish tuning is given as 53-tET, with makamat
> as follows:
>
> 9 8 5 9 9 4 4 5 Makam Rast
> 9 4 9 9 4 9 9 Makam Nahawand, Fifty-three tone Minor
> 9 8 5 9 8 1 4 4 5 Makam Yegah

[...]

> 9 9 4 9 9 9 4 Makam Cargah II, Zavil, Fifty-three tone Major
> 5 8 13 5 5 8 4 5 Makam Araban
> 9 8 5 9 9 5 8 Makam Urmawi

This comes from the Scala list, I presume. Since Turkish uses a number of
accents on some letters (like �, �, � and other letters I can't type with
this keyboard), where can I get a list of makamat with the appropriate
letter marks?

Or better yet, the Arabic maqamaat -- in Arabic script?

~DaW~

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Danny wrote:
> Since Turkish uses a number of
>accents on some letters (like ç, ö, ü and other letters I can't type with
>this keyboard), where can I get a list of makamat with the appropriate
>letter marks?

In the Scala file modusnam.par. I chose not to put them in the English
mode file since the user then must enter the exact same name when searching
for a makam, which on an American PC-keyboard is done rather clumsily with
the alt-number method.

>How do you make Fokker periodicities with Scala, by the way?

For a set of candidate lattice points, I do a coordinate transformation
which map the unison vectors to an orthonormal basis and then
check whether they are inside the n-dimensional hypercube formed by
this basis.

Manuel

Kraig wrote:
>KARADENIZ (which might be the univerity)
>TURK MUSIKISININ NAZARIYI UI
>TSASLARI M____________

This book is in the bibliography. Ekrem Karadeniz is the author.
The title in English is Theory and principles of Turkish music.
I'd like to get a PDF copy too.

Manuel

Danny Wier wrote:

> This comes from the Scala list, I presume. Since Turkish uses a number
> of
> accents on some letters (like �, �, � and other letters I can't type
> with
> this keyboard), where can I get a list of makamat with the appropriate
> letter marks?
>
> Or better yet, the Arabic maqamaat -- in Arabic script?

Touma ("The Music of the Arabs", discussed recently on this list) gives
his rules for transliteration, so you could work backwards to the Arabic.
Rast is with a long a, so raast. Nahawand has no modifiers, so it's
short vowels all round.

Graham

From: <manuel.op.de.coul@eon-benelux.com>

| Danny wrote:
| > Since Turkish uses a number of
| >accents on some letters (like �, �, � and other letters I can't type with
| >this keyboard), where can I get a list of makamat with the appropriate
| >letter marks?
|
| In the Scala file modusnam.par. I chose not to put them in the English
| mode file since the user then must enter the exact same name when
searching
| for a makam, which on an American PC-keyboard is done rather clumsily with
| the alt-number method.

Not only that, but some letters found in Turkish aren't even in the
character set used in Dutch and English versions of either Windows or Mac.
Now if you have Windows 95 or later and Turkish-language support, this isn't
a problem, but with standard Latin-1 e-mail format, it's a no-go.

| >How do you make Fokker periodicities with Scala, by the way?
|
| For a set of candidate lattice points, I do a coordinate transformation
| which map the unison vectors to an orthonormal basis and then
| check whether they are inside the n-dimensional hypercube formed by
| this basis.

Hmm, been a while since I took calculus and advanced algebra and all that.
I did find in the menus of the Windows 95+ port of Scala how to make a
periodicity; I just need to figure out where vectors come into this and all
that. I'll figure it out; I always do.

~DaW~

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

--- In tuning@y..., "Danny Wier" <dawier@y...> wrote:

> Hmm, been a while since I took calculus and advanced algebra and
all that.
> I did find in the menus of the Windows 95+ port of Scala how to
make a
> periodicity; I just need to figure out where vectors come into this
and all
> that. I'll figure it out; I always do.
>
> ~DaW~

Danny --

Have you read the "Gentle Introduction":

http://www.ixpres.com/interval/td/erlich/intropblock1.htm

--- In tuning@y..., "paulerlich" <paul@s...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_30898.html#31090

> Have you read the "Gentle Introduction":
>
> http://www.ixpres.com/interval/td/erlich/intropblock1.htm

I studied through it again, too. It's amazing how valuable this is.
It should probably be in hard copy someplace... like Xenharmonicon or
released as a separate item, as in _Forms of Tonality_. Frankly, I'm
getting *most* of it now, probably for the first time! (Except for a
little math-background-lapse near the end...)

Joseph

--- In tuning@y..., "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "paulerlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_30898.html#31090
>
>
> > Have you read the "Gentle Introduction":
> >
> > http://www.ixpres.com/interval/td/erlich/intropblock1.htm
>
>
> I studied through it again, too. It's amazing how valuable this
is.
> It should probably be in hard copy someplace... like Xenharmonicon

I'll submit an article of which this will be the beginning.

--- In tuning@y..., "paulerlich" <paul@s...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_30898.html#31207

> >
> > > Have you read the "Gentle Introduction":
> > >
> > > http://www.ixpres.com/interval/td/erlich/intropblock1.htm
> >
> >
> > I studied through it again, too. It's amazing how valuable this
> is. It should probably be in hard copy someplace... like
Xenharmonicon
>
> I'll submit an article of which this will be the beginning.

Bravo!

You'll be happy to hear that this time through I understood almost
the entire... A big difference from last year's read!

JP