Re: a new temperment

Mr Dimitrov... is the crux of your suggestion that the
12tet scale should be stretched so that the octaves are
a few cents sharp?

Thats fine and may be a good idea, and has been pointed
out, is used in pianos already (probably for different
reasons). I suspect that in ensembles, there may be
a natural tendency for this to happen, everyone wants
to be heard and being a pinch sharp always helps...
see also "high leading tones" and the drift upwards
of A over the past few centurys.

Coming up with a systematic way to do this on guitar
so that all unisons are in tune but all octaves are
a pinch sharp requires a little thinking (the frets
need to be angled AND the bridge needs to be shoved
slightly towards the neck)...

But why do you stick with 12 notes per octave? You've
made the "liveliness" of the fifth and octave about the
same but the third is still much more sharp ("lively").
Why not try a stretched 19tet or 31tet?

Bob Valentine

Hi, Robert

First-I would say=I dont have one guitar but about the
tuning one modern guitar...I think so-all of frets are
maded good and if we want to adjust it's very easy
because the modern bridge have lot of possibillity
for that...

--- Robert C Valentine <BVAL@IIL.INTEL.COM> a �crit�:
>
> Mr Dimitrov... is the crux of your suggestion that
> the
> 12tet scale should be stretched so that the octaves
> are
> a few cents sharp?

Yes, I try to have one reference for each half ton
today, something like the seconds in the time, ok?
One absolute value one time for all :))
When I will done with "verify" I could explate more...
For now I have name my work UT12

> Thats fine and may be a good idea, and has been
> pointed
> out, is used in pianos already (probably for
> different
> reasons). I suspect that in ensembles, there may be
> a natural tendency for this to happen, everyone
> wants
> to be heard and being a pinch sharp always helps...
> see also "high leading tones" and the drift upwards
> of A over the past few centurys.
>
> Coming up with a systematic way to do this on guitar
> so that all unisons are in tune but all octaves are
> a pinch sharp requires a little thinking (the frets
> need to be angled AND the bridge needs to be shoved
> slightly towards the neck)...
>
> But why do you stick with 12 notes per octave?

Because all other temperament where we have different
number of steps for me is very strange and ... simply
false !
I'm violinist before no less...47 years :))

> You've
> made the "liveliness" of the fifth and octave about
> the
> same but the third is still much more sharp
> ("lively").
> Why not try a stretched 19tet or 31tet?
>
> Bob Valentine

My comming is different. First I had discover the half
tone out of using one interval !!! I never had try to
stretching one 5,8 17,19 or 31...This is only the
result of my half tone that the octave is wide and the
fifth is smaller...ect
The way is very different !

Excuse-me for my english, please:))

L.Dimitrov

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--- In tuning@y..., Latchezar Dimitrov <latchezar_d@y...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_27635.html#27639

>
> My comming is different. First I had discover the half
> tone out of using one interval !!! I never had try to
> stretching one 5,8 17,19 or 31...This is only the
> result of my half tone that the octave is wide and the
> fifth is smaller...ect
> The way is very different !
>
> Excuse-me for my english, please:))
>

Isn't this a little like using a "generator" to create a scale??

Paul or Dave??

____________ _________ _______
Joseph Pehrson

--- In tuning@y..., jpehrson@r... wrote:

> Isn't this a little like using a "generator" to create a scale??
>
> Paul or Dave??
>
Sure . . . without an interval of equivalence to wrap it around.

--- jpehrson@rcn.com a �crit�: > --- In tuning@y...,
Latchezar Dimitrov
> <latchezar_d@y...> wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_27635.html#27639
>
> >
> > My comming is different. First I had discover the
> half
> > tone out of using one interval !!! I never had try
> to
> > stretching one 5,8 17,19 or 31...This is only the
> > result of my half tone that the octave is wide and
> the
> > fifth is smaller...ect
> > The way is very different !
> >
> > Excuse-me for my english, please:))
> >
>
> Isn't this a little like using a "generator" to
> create a scale??
>
> Paul or Dave??
>
> ____________ _________ _______
> Joseph Pehrson
>
>
C'est quoi un generateur?
Utile ? On paper I had discover the K(3)
Now I try that all :)

Latch

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--- In tuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_27635.html#27667

> --- In tuning@y..., jpehrson@r... wrote:
>
> > Isn't this a little like using a "generator" to create a scale??
> >
> > Paul or Dave??
> >
> Sure . . . without an interval of equivalence to wrap it around.

That "wrap around" makes a scale using a generator with that
considerably more complex mathematically, doesn't it? Or doesn't it??

________ ______ ______
Joseph Pehrson

--- In tuning@y..., Latchezar Dimitrov <latchezar_d@y...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_27635.html#27670

> >
> C'est quoi un generateur?
> Utile ? On paper I had discover the K(3)
> Now I try that all :)
>
> Latch
>

Hello Latch!

Thanks for keeping in an "English free" zone... "defense d'Anglais"
or some such...

A few months ago we were discussing a "generator" for the "Miracle"
set of scales. The generator is 116.7 cents! It generates the
entire family of "justly related" scales, "Miracle," Canasta and the
full 72-tET!

Here is the information on it:

http://www.ixpres.com/interval/dict/miracle.htm

_______ _____ ______
Joseph Pehrson

Thank-you, Joseph !

I have visit this site...
Ooops, english free zone now...:) :)

Alors vraiment je m'embrouille totalement avec tout �a
et je me demande constantement a quoi peut servir
cette imonde division car je suis desol�, mais soit on
joue juste, soit on joue faux ! On peut jouer faux de
pluseurs fa�ons, ok-mais pourquoi on invente de plus
en plus des scales totalement absurdes et
insupportables ?! Ca devient une manie de diviser et
"creer" tout sorte de choses qui ne servent a rien!
Et la Musique dans tout �a ? Qui la respecte, qui la
comprend ? Pourqoi des ingenieurs, des mathematiciens
et des professeurs avec tout autre specialit� se
mettent a publier n'importe quoi dans domain qui leur
n'est pas de tout familier ? Par vanit�, par snobisme
?
Je suis totalement revolt� de point de vue musical !
Plus c'est compliqu� la fa�on d'obtenir une
division-plus sa sonne faux :)) Zut, flute ect :))
C'est �a le progr�s ?
Je ne sais pas si mon ideal devient comme une religion
pour moi, mais je crois de plus en plus en verifiant
ma decouverte que la justesse est unique et qu'elle
existe belle et bien :)
Si j'�tait �crivain j'aurais tent� d'�crire un
livre...comme celui de Mr Cordier ! Tout experience a
droit d'exister, mais sur une base de reference-un
demi-ton universel et definitif !
Bient�t j'aurai des examples sonores a fournir dans
format mp3 ou mieux, dans format L3 si tu connais...
(voir le logiciel L3producer) C'est long a produire
cinquantaine echantillons de waves dans Cool Edit
multipistes, mais je veux aussi les integrer comme un
instrument dans ma carte son(AWE32) pour jouer en
temps reel ! Je sais qu'il y a possibilit� de
correction avec pitch-bend, mais je ne suis pas
convencu pour l'exactitude car mes echantillons sont
produits avec millieme du hertz justes...
A bient�t et courage pour la traduction :) ) )

Dimitrov

--- jpehrson@rcn.com a �crit�: > --- In tuning@y...,
Latchezar Dimitrov
> <latchezar_d@y...> wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_27635.html#27670
>
> > >
> > C'est quoi un generateur?
> > Utile ? On paper I had discover the K(3)
> > Now I try that all :)
> >
> > Latch
> >
>
> Hello Latch!
>
> Thanks for keeping in an "English free" zone...
> "defense d'Anglais"
> or some such...
>
> A few months ago we were discussing a "generator"
> for the "Miracle"
> set of scales. The generator is 116.7 cents! It
> generates the
> entire family of "justly related" scales, "Miracle,"
> Canasta and the
> full 72-tET!
>
> Here is the information on it:
>
> http://www.ixpres.com/interval/dict/miracle.htm
>
> _______ _____ ______
> Joseph Pehrson
>
>
>
>

___________________________________________________________
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--- In tuning@y..., Latchezar Dimitrov <latchezar_d@y...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_27635.html#27685

> Thank-you, Joseph !
>
> I have visit this site...
> Ooops, english free zone now...:) :)

[I think I'm getting most of this, but if I am making a mistake
perhaps Wim Hoogewerf or some other fluent speakers can correct
me... :) ]
>
> Alors vraiment je m'embrouille totalement avec tout ça
> et je me demande constantement a quoi peut servir
> cette imonde division car je suis desolé, mais soit on
> joue juste, soit on joue faux ! On peut jouer faux de
> pluseurs façons, ok-mais pourquoi on invente de plus
> en plus des scales totalement absurdes et
> insupportables ?! Ca devient une manie de diviser et
> "creer" tout sorte de choses qui ne servent a rien!

[Mr. Dimitrov is here questioning the wisdom of creating scales that
are so "out there" as the Miracle family, as contrasted with
more "traditional" efforts]

Well, admittedly, Latch, the Miracle family of scales is of
an "experimental" sort. That doesn't mean, however, that there is no
usefulness in them! These scales are more for "contemporary"
or "experimental" music, not for playing the traditional classics!
However, they are not just a "vanity" of scientists... real music can
be made from them. In fact, I have just recently uploaded a new
piece for trombone and electronics in the "blackjack" scale, which is
a 21-tone subset of the Miracle 31-tone scale, "Canasta."

"Blackjack" *is* practical, since 21 scale steps are really not so
far from the size of steps that we are used to in "traditional" 12-
tET.... we have, essentially, step sizes of 83 cents, the
Miracle "whole tone" and a smaller step, 33 cents, which is the "semi-
tone" but which is really so small that it is an "inflection" of the
larger step.

With contemporary synthesizers it is *very* easy to construct this
scale and make electronic music for it. And, since the scale
corresponds to 72-tET, a *very* established scale for notation in
certain xenharmonic circles (mainly in Boston, but also other places)
it is not difficult to get live instrumentalists to play it.

In 72-tET, the performer only needs how to play regular 12-tET (let's
hope they can do *that!*), quarter-tones and ONLY TWO new divisions,
the 1/6 of a 12-tET whole tone and a 1/12 of a 12-tET whole tone.

There are only *two* new intervals to learn! So the Miracle family,
being a subset of 72-tET is relatively easy to notate and teach
performers!

So all of this is quite practical, and the result is scales that have
*many* sonorities that are very close (within about 3 cents) to just
intonation!

Now, admittedly, the means of composing with these scales is
different than some of our "usual" methods, and we can't use
our "traditional" harmony. There are *new* harmonic rules for the
Miracle family yet to be discovered. I've been exploring some of
them by tracing common tones from a "blackjack lattice" or a visual
projection of how all the pitches relate to one another.

Now, truly, one is not going to play Bach or Mozart on "blackjack!"
But that is not the intention, this is total for *new* explorations.

However, I don't really believe because these directions are "non-
traditional" that they are invalid or worthless! Some people are
quite tired of 12-tET for new pieces, and that includes *variants* of
it! We really are looking for new sounds to explore!

> Et la Musique dans tout ça ? Qui la respecte, qui la
> comprend ?

[Latch is asking who is going to respect or understand this kind of
music]

Well, curiously enough, Latch, quite a bit of the music that I have
been composing in "blackjack" sounds a little traditional in parts...
although rather "strange." It makes sense this would be the case,
since many of the sonorities are related to the sonorities of 12-tET
which we have derived, although distorted, from the harmonic series!

So this music, although "different" is not really unpleasant or "far
out..." In fact, it allows me to infuse it with a kind
of "romanticism" that, otherwise, I might find "old fashioned" or
otherwise inappropriate!

Pourqoi des ingenieurs, des mathematiciens
> et des professeurs avec tout autre specialité se
> mettent a publier n'importe quoi dans domain qui leur
> n'est pas de tout familier ? Par vanité, par snobisme
> ?

[Well here Latch is sounding like our favorite "nutty professor." He
says that all of this is mostly a "vanity" of scientists and
mathematicians...]

I believe, Latch, that most new inventions have been thought of this
way... When somebody first stuck his head into a big microphone and
shouted through a wire across the room, I'm sure this was considered
a "vanity," not a "telephone!"

> Je suis totalement revolté de point de vue musical !
> Plus c'est compliqué la façon d'obtenir une
> division-plus sa sonne faux :)) Zut, flute ect :))
> C'est ça le progrés ?
> Je ne sais pas si mon ideal devient comme une religion
> pour moi, mais je crois de plus en plus en verifiant
> ma decouverte que la justesse est unique et qu'elle
> existe belle et bien :)
> Si j'était écrivain j'aurais tenté d'écrire un
> livre...comme celui de Mr Cordier ! Tout experience a
> droit d'exister, mais sur une base de reference-un
> demi-ton universel et definitif !

[Latch is explaining his system and also stating that, at some point,
he will write a book about it]

Essentially, Mr. Dimitrov, what you are trying to do is *entirely*
different from the kinds of things I have been doing with the Miracle
scales. Basically, you want a system to enhance *traditional* music,
not create entirely new systems!

That's just fine! There will be *lots* of uses for that... but, of
course, it doesn't mean that other approaches to microtonality or
xenharmonity are invalid!

> Bientôt j'aurai des examples sonores a fournir dans
> format mp3 ou mieux, dans format L3 si tu connais...
> (voir le logiciel L3producer) C'est long a produire
> cinquantaine echantillons de waves dans Cool Edit
> multipistes, mais je veux aussi les integrer comme un
> instrument dans ma carte son(AWE32) pour jouer en
> temps reel ! Je sais qu'il y a possibilité de
> correction avec pitch-bend, mais je ne suis pas
> convencu pour l'exactitude car mes echantillons sont
> produits avec millieme du hertz justes...
> A bientôt et courage pour la traduction :) ) )
>

[Here Latch is saying that he hopes to make some mp3's of his work
using Cool Edit, and questions the use of pitch bends through his
sound card]

I think the mp3's would be best, since lots of us can play them, and
we would be interested in hearing what you are doing....

It's true that pitch bends are somewhat limited in accuracy, although
John deLaubenfels and Joe Monzo have *both* made adequate use of
them... but maybe they were not going for the kind of precise effect
you are looking for in your, essentially, development of regular 12-
equal temperament...

It is true that other synthesizers would be better. Graham Breed has
a *very* accurate one... Kyma, Rayma (??) Anyway, it goes to, I
believe, a fraction of a cent.. (??)

However, it's rather costly...

a bientot!

__________ _________ _____
Joseph Pehrson

[ Attachment content not displayed ]

--- In tuning@y..., Latchezar Dimitrov <latchezar_d@y...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_27635.html#27700

> I'm so so happy !!!
> Joseph, it WORK beautiful:)))
>

Hello Latch!

Generally speaking, it's better to put files in the "FILES" area of
this Tuning List e-groups (over on the left, select "Files") because
some of our members cannot receive attachments very well.

I've taken the liberty of including your file in our "Files" section
under the directory "Dimitrov" so that people can easily hear it...

Well, the timbre is, indeed, a little "strange" and the file has been
recorded at too high a volume, so it gets "clipped."

Aside from that, the tuning *does* sound interesting, and I believe
your point can be well taken that Just Intonation is not always an
optimal paradigm...

Thanks for sending this along!!!

________ ________ ________
Joseph Pehrson

--- In tuning@y..., jpehrson@r... wrote:

/tuning/topicId_27635.html#27702

Oh... in my discussion of the "gain" of the sound file, I neglected
to say much about the Mozart TUNING....

Well, I certainly can hear the "stretching." Everything seems a bit
more "brilliant" than usual. It's a nice effect...

But, isn't this exactly what happened with the symphony orchestra??
Wasn't there a pressure to drive pitch up for greater brilliance?

Isn't that what kept driving A440+++++ up and up??

Maybe Paul can offer some comments if he gets a chance...

________ _______ ______
Joseph Pehrson

--- In tuning@y..., jpehrson@r... wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_27635.html#27667
>
> > --- In tuning@y..., jpehrson@r... wrote:
> >
> > > Isn't this a little like using a "generator" to create a scale??
> > >
> > > Paul or Dave??
> > >
> > Sure . . . without an interval of equivalence to wrap it around.
>
>
> That "wrap around" makes a scale using a generator with that
> considerably more complex mathematically, doesn't it? Or doesn't
it??

Well, it's just a little more complex. With the "wrap around", you
have to do your additions MOD the interval of equivalence. Without
it, you just do the additions (e.g., for Gary Morrison's scale, 88 +
88 + 88 + 88 + 88 . . .) "straight".

--- In tuning@y..., jpehrson@r... wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., jpehrson@r... wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_27635.html#27702
>
>
> Oh... in my discussion of the "gain" of the sound file, I neglected
> to say much about the Mozart TUNING....
>
> Well, I certainly can hear the "stretching." Everything seems a
bit
> more "brilliant" than usual. It's a nice effect...
>
> But, isn't this exactly what happened with the symphony
orchestra??
> Wasn't there a pressure to drive pitch up for greater brilliance?
>
> Isn't that what kept driving A440+++++ up and up??
>
> Maybe Paul can offer some comments if he gets a chance...

Well, in the stretched tuning the high As will be higher, and the low
As will be lower . . .

But I think the whole premise of Latchezar's argument, which is that
all semitones are equal, is false for Mozart. We have documented
evidence that Mozart, while using (UNEQUAL) well-temperaments at the
keyboard, taught meantone intonation (approx. 1/6-comma meantone) for
strings, extended through 20 tones per octave! I posted a summary of
this article a few months ago, and Monz made a webpage for it (Monz?)

Hi Latchezar

I enjoyed this!!

Very nice, suits the Mozart piece well. Brings out his great sense of humour.

Robert

Hi again, Joseph :)

J'avais oubli� la section "Files", tu as raison!
Et pas chaqu'un veut recevoir 650 kb lourd e-mail...
La qualit� du L3 laisse a desirer, je sais.
J'avais enregistr� mono/11kb ect...
Maintenant je dois arranger mon nouvel instrument-plus
d'octaves et un peu d'enveloppe :)
Si non-le timbre est une sinusoide a la base-avec 4-5
harmonics en "decrescendo" :))

--- jpehrson@rcn.com a �crit�: > --- In tuning@y...,
jpehrson@r... wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_27635.html#27702
>
>
> Oh... in my discussion of the "gain" of the sound
> file, I neglected
> to say much about the Mozart TUNING....
>

Mozart tunning ? ;)
J'ai utilis� Mozart car sa musique ne supporte jamais
une deviation de la justesse m�me moindre...
Si mon exemple �tait une piece de...Xenakis...:)))
Depuis que j'ai entendu en pratique le resultat-je
peux ecouter avec des heures tout stile de musique.

> Well, I certainly can hear the "stretching."
> Everything seems a bit
> more "brilliant" than usual. It's a nice effect...
>
> But, isn't this exactly what happened with the
> symphony orchestra??
> Wasn't there a pressure to drive pitch up for
> greater brilliance?
>

Peut-�tre, Joseph, peut-�tre :))
Pour moi(comme je suis violoniste) tout sonne bien en
place, on "respire", la musique peut passer librement
et on oublit le "tunning problem " :)

> Isn't that what kept driving A440+++++ up and up??
>
> Maybe Paul can offer some comments if he gets a
> chance...
>
> ________ _______ ______
> Joseph Pehrson
>
Dans notre orchestre(Opera de Nice) nous utilisons
toujours A=442...C'est une autre theme, je pense.
L'expenssion du demi-ton n'est pas la m�me chose qu'a
s'accorder simplement plus haut...

Friendly

Latchezar

___________________________________________________________
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Hello ,Paul :)

I had surprised by your proposals !
It's you who are write this-"unequal well-tempered"
tunning?
What is this , please?
Do you have play Mozart yourself ?

--- Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com> a �crit�: >
--- In tuning@y..., jpehrson@r... wrote:
> > --- In tuning@y..., jpehrson@r... wrote:
> >
> > /tuning/topicId_27635.html#27702
> >
> >
> > Oh... in my discussion of the "gain" of the sound
> file, I neglected
> > to say much about the Mozart TUNING....
> >
> > Well, I certainly can hear the "stretching."
> Everything seems a
> bit
> > more "brilliant" than usual. It's a nice
> effect...
> >
> > But, isn't this exactly what happened with the
> symphony
> orchestra??
> > Wasn't there a pressure to drive pitch up for
> greater brilliance?
> >
> > Isn't that what kept driving A440+++++ up and up??
> >
> > Maybe Paul can offer some comments if he gets a
> chance...
>
> Well, in the stretched tuning the high As will be
> higher, and the low
> As will be lower . . .

Lower than what ?
Do you have any other reference that the octave?
You remember me any thing you have say recently :)
(about C#=Db...)
>
> But I think the whole premise of Latchezar's
> argument, which is that
> all semitones are equal, is false for Mozart. We
> have documented
> evidence that Mozart, while using (UNEQUAL)
> well-temperaments at the
> keyboard, taught meantone intonation (approx.
> 1/6-comma meantone) for
> strings, extended through 20 tones per octave! I
> posted a summary of
> this article a few months ago, and Monz made a
> webpage for it (Monz?)
>
:))) Poor Mozart...
His music is genius and we are very small to...
No ?

Latchezar

___________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!? -- Un e-mail gratuit @yahoo.fr !
Yahoo! Courrier : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com

--- In tuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_27635.html#27709

> > That "wrap around" makes a scale using a generator with that
> > considerably more complex mathematically, doesn't it? Or doesn't
> it??
>
> Well, it's just a little more complex. With the "wrap around", you
> have to do your additions MOD the interval of equivalence. Without
> it, you just do the additions (e.g., for Gary Morrison's scale, 88
+
> 88 + 88 + 88 + 88 . . .) "straight".

How, exactly, does one do this "MOD?" I thought "mod" went away with
the bell bottoms?? :)

_________ _______ _______
Joseph Pehrson

Thank-you, Robert !

It was my first application and I know that could be
better why my AWE32 dont have memory for...
Will done soon more and better:)
The music is one beautiful thing!
Now I discover any midi file when I hear in UT12
because it sound like one big orchestre (I mean
-tuning only:) )

Friendly

Dimitrov

--- Robert Walker <robertwalker@ntlworld.com> a
�crit�: > Hi Latchezar
>
> I enjoyed this!!
>
> Very nice, suits the Mozart piece well. Brings out
> his great sense of humour.
>
> Robert
>
>
>
>

___________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!? -- Un e-mail gratuit @yahoo.fr !
Yahoo! Courrier : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com

--- In tuning@y..., Latchezar Dimitrov <latchezar_d@y...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_27635.html#27722

> Hi again, Joseph :)
>
> J'avais oublié la section "Files", tu as raison!
> Et pas chaqu'un veut recevoir 650 kb lourd e-mail...
> La qualité du L3 laisse a desirer, je sais.
> J'avais enregistré mono/11kb ect...
> Maintenant je dois arranger mon nouvel instrument-plus
> d'octaves et un peu d'enveloppe :)
> Si non-le timbre est une sinusoide a la base-avec 4-5
> harmonics en "decrescendo" :))
>
[Dimitrov is explaining that he knows the sound quality can be
improved on his file, with some technical details]

Yes, Latch, using the "files" section would be best. I uploaded your
file there but it is behaving strangely. It won't open unless
somebody *saves* it to the hard drive first... at least it didn't for
*me*.

I believe that people getting the *digest* form, and maybe even the e-
mail form from egroups don't get attachments...

Correct, anybody??

> --- jpehrson@r... a écrit : > --- In tuning@y...,
> jpehrson@r... wrote:
> >
> > /tuning/topicId_27635.html#27702
> >
> >
> > Oh... in my discussion of the "gain" of the sound
> > file, I neglected
> > to say much about the Mozart TUNING....
> >
>
> Mozart tunning ? ;)
> J'ai utilisé Mozart car sa musique ne supporte jamais
> une deviation de la justesse même moindre...
> Si mon exemple était une piece de...Xenakis...:)))
> Depuis que j'ai entendu en pratique le resultat-je
> peux ecouter avec des heures tout stile de musique.
>

[Latch thinks I mean that his tuning is only to be intended for
Mozart... when Xenakis might sound good in it !! He also says that
Mozart, above all composers, reveals tuning imprecision]

Oh... Latch, I didn't mean that. I was just calling it that for
reference! I knew it was for other things too.

The big question, is the question that Paul Erlich brought up, since
I believe it's pretty well accepted that Mozart composed his music in
1/6 comma meantone!

I guess Mozart does reveal tuning quite well, but I'm not sure
whether if more than lots of other composers... It works, here, to
be certain!

> > Well, I certainly can hear the "stretching."
> > Everything seems a bit
> > more "brilliant" than usual. It's a nice effect...
> >
> > But, isn't this exactly what happened with the
> > symphony orchestra??
> > Wasn't there a pressure to drive pitch up for
> > greater brilliance?
> >
>
> Peut-être, Joseph, peut-être :))
> Pour moi(comme je suis violoniste) tout sonne bien en
> place, on "respire", la musique peut passer librement
> et on oublit le "tunning problem " :)
>
> > Isn't that what kept driving A440+++++ up and up??
> >
> > Maybe Paul can offer some comments if he gets a
> > chance...
> >
> > ________ _______ ______
> > Joseph Pehrson
> >
> Dans notre orchestre(Opera de Nice) nous utilisons
> toujours A=442...C'est une autre theme, je pense.
> L'expenssion du demi-ton n'est pas la même chose qu'a
> s'accorder simplement plus haut...
>

[Latch is saying, basically, that my idea of the higher pitch
evolution of the orchestra really has nothing to do with the
expansion of the semitone he advocates... he may be right on that!]

_________ _______ _____
Joseph Pehrson

On Fri, 31 Aug 2001 18:35:07 +0200 (CEST), Latchezar Dimitrov
<latchezar_d@yahoo.com> wrote:

>I'm so so happy !!!
>Joseph, it WORK beautiful:)))

Please don't send HUGE binary attachments to the list!

> 'Latch':
> >> Alors vraiment je m'embrouille totalement avec tout �a
> >> et je me demande constantement a quoi peut servir
> >> cette imonde division car je suis desol�, mais soit on
> >> joue juste, soit on joue faux ! On peut jouer faux de
> >> pluseurs fa�ons, ok-mais pourquoi on invente de plus
> >> en plus des scales totalement absurdes et
> >> insupportables ?! Ca devient une manie de diviser et
> >> "creer" tout sorte de choses qui ne servent a rien!

Wim's translation:
> "So really, I'm completely mixed up with all this and I'm permanently
> asking
> myself to what may serve this disgusting division because I'm sorry, but
> either one plays in tune, either one plays out of tune! there are
> different
> ways to play out of tune, ok-but why one invents more and more
> completely
> absurd and inbearable scales?! It becomes a mania to divise et "create"
> all
> sort of things which do not serve anything!"

I think "creer" should translate as "believe" rather than "create". If
not, please correct me, because it does alter the tone of that sentence.

Graham

graham@microtonal.co.uk wrote:

> > 'Latch':
> > >> Alors vraiment je m'embrouille totalement avec tout �a
> > >> et je me demande constantement a quoi peut servir
> > >> cette imonde division car je suis desol�, mais soit on
> > >> joue juste, soit on joue faux ! On peut jouer faux de
> > >> pluseurs fa�ons, ok-mais pourquoi on invente de plus
> > >> en plus des scales totalement absurdes et
> > >> insupportables ?! Ca devient une manie de diviser et
> > >> "creer" tout sorte de choses qui ne servent a rien!
>
> Wim's translation:
> > "So really, I'm completely mixed up with all this and I'm permanently
> > asking
> > myself to what may serve this disgusting division because I'm sorry, but
> > either one plays in tune, either one plays out of tune! there are
> > different
> > ways to play out of tune, ok-but why one invents more and more
> > completely
> > absurd and inbearable scales?! It becomes a mania to divise et "create"
> > all
> > sort of things which do not serve anything!"
>
> I think "creer" should translate as "believe" rather than "create". If
> not, please correct me, because it does alter the tone of that sentence.
>
> Graham

Creer is definitely create. You're thinking of croire - to believe. Repeat after me Je crois, tu
crois......... : - )

Regards

> From: Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 1:00 PM
> Subject: [tuning] Re: UT12 Sample
>
>
> But I think the whole premise of Latchezar's argument, which is that
> all semitones are equal, is false for Mozart. We have documented
> evidence that Mozart, while using (UNEQUAL) well-temperaments at the
> keyboard, taught meantone intonation (approx. 1/6-comma meantone) for
> strings, extended through 20 tones per octave! I posted a summary of
> this article a few months ago, and Monz made a webpage for it (Monz?)

http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/55edo/55edo.htm

love / peace / harmony ...

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Alison wrote:

> Creer is definitely create. You're thinking of croire - to believe.
> Repeat after me Je crois, tu
> crois......... : - )

You're right about me being wrong. I was actually thinking of "creo"
which is really Spanish.

Graham

--- In tuning@y..., Latchezar Dimitrov <latchezar_d@y...> wrote:
> Hello ,Paul :)
>
> I had surprised by your proposals !
> It's you who are write this-"unequal well-tempered"
> tunning?
> What is this , please?

Examples include Werckmeister, Kirnberger, Valotti & Young, etc. Are you familiar with these?

> Do you have play Mozart yourself ?

I have, in early piano lessons.

> > Well, in the stretched tuning the high As will be
> > higher, and the low
> > As will be lower . . .
>
> Lower than what ?

Than A-220, A-110, A-55, A-27.5.

> Do you have any other reference that the octave?

I don't understand.

> You remember me any thing you have say recently :)
> (about C#=Db...)

I don't understand that sentence.

> >
> > But I think the whole premise of Latchezar's
> > argument, which is that
> > all semitones are equal, is false for Mozart. We
> > have documented
> > evidence that Mozart, while using (UNEQUAL)
> > well-temperaments at the
> > keyboard, taught meantone intonation (approx.
> > 1/6-comma meantone) for
> > strings, extended through 20 tones per octave! I
> > posted a summary of
> > this article a few months ago, and Monz made a
> > webpage for it (Monz?)
> >
> :))) Poor Mozart...
> His music is genius and we are very small to...
> No ?

We are very small to . . . observe his own teachings on intonation?

--- In tuning@y..., jpehrson@r... wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_27635.html#27709
>
> > > That "wrap around" makes a scale using a generator with that
> > > considerably more complex mathematically, doesn't it? Or doesn't
> > it??
> >
> > Well, it's just a little more complex. With the "wrap around", you
> > have to do your additions MOD the interval of equivalence. Without
> > it, you just do the additions (e.g., for Gary Morrison's scale, 88
> +
> > 88 + 88 + 88 + 88 . . .) "straight".
>
>
> How, exactly, does one do this "MOD?" I thought "mod" went away with
> the bell bottoms?? :)

Very simple . . . consider the chain of fifths in 12-tET. The generator is 7 steps of 12-tET. So the
notes are:

0 MOD 12 = 0
7 MOD 12 = 7
14 MOD 12 = 2
21 MOD 12 = 9
28 MOD 12 = 4
35 MOD 12 = 11
42 MOD 12 = 6

etc.

Capish?

--- In tuning@y..., jpehrson@r... wrote:

> The big question, is the question that Paul Erlich brought up, since
> I believe it's pretty well accepted that Mozart composed his music in
> 1/6 comma meantone!

Well, not his _keyboard_ music, since he used unequal well-temperament on the keyboard. But
he did teach string intonation in accordance with a meantone framework (probably close to
1/6-comma, but he didn't quantify it -- Daniel Wolf argued for 1/4-comma).

How is Monz doing on his 55-tET sequence of a Mozart symphony?

--- In tuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_27635.html#27773

> --- In tuning@y..., jpehrson@r... wrote:
> > --- In tuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> >
> > /tuning/topicId_27635.html#27709
> >
> > > > That "wrap around" makes a scale using a generator with that
> > > > considerably more complex mathematically, doesn't it? Or
doesn't
> > > it??
> > >
> > > Well, it's just a little more complex. With the "wrap around",
you
> > > have to do your additions MOD the interval of equivalence.
Without
> > > it, you just do the additions (e.g., for Gary Morrison's scale,
88
> > +
> > > 88 + 88 + 88 + 88 . . .) "straight".
> >
> >
> > How, exactly, does one do this "MOD?" I thought "mod" went away
with
> > the bell bottoms?? :)
>
> Very simple . . . consider the chain of fifths in 12-tET. The
generator is 7 steps of 12-tET. So the
> notes are:
>
> 0 MOD 12 = 0
> 7 MOD 12 = 7
> 14 MOD 12 = 2
> 21 MOD 12 = 9
> 28 MOD 12 = 4
> 35 MOD 12 = 11
> 42 MOD 12 = 6
>
> etc.
>
> Capish?

Got it! Thanks Paul. I think I learned that in high school, but
that was more than five years ago...

________ ________ __________
Joseph Pehrson

--- In tuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:

> How is Monz doing on his 55-tET sequence of a Mozart symphony?

He must be doing fine--my dog made no objection to the clip he heard.