Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Re : [tuning] Re: temperament equal(new?)

Joe Pehrson:
>
> Is Mr. Dimitrov possibly talking about scales that use something
> other than a 2:1 octave??

Joe,

Mr. Dimitrov replied already to your question. Indeed, the tuning-system
proposed by Serge Cordier abandons the perfect octave. The name Cordier
didn't come up so much on the tuning-list until now, I think. By coincidence
I was confronted with his tuning, while visiting and working with two
professional singers in the Paris region. They had their piano tuned by Mr.
Cordier himself (he is working professionally as a piano-tuner in France)
and they both were very satisfied with the result, and they are no
microtonalists.

Cordier's temperament is called TEQJ ('tempérament égal à quintes justes)
and should not be confounded with the Pythagorean temperament. Cordier
splits up the perfect fifth in 7 equal parts to find his semi-tones (so the
7th root of 1.5) and accepts that every new octave will be a 1/7th
Pythagorean comma wide! So every 3/2 is perfect but only this interval and
not the 3/1 or the 4/3.

As a piano-tuning this makes sense, since the phenomena of inharmonicity
demands larger octaves if they want to be perceived as just to the human
ear. (Paul, Ed, Carl, am I right about this?)

Interesting enough, Mr. Cordier published a book 'Le piano et la justesse
orchestrale'. I haven't red this book yet, but I can immediately imagine one
aspect: the tuning of all the strings in the orchestra, from double-bass to
violin, is based on a cumulation of perfect fifths. This array of fifths can
be found perfectly on the Cordier tuned piano. Mr. Dimitrov, is that true?
Or do the string-players in an orchestra still slightly temper their open
string fifths to prevent especially the low C being too low?

After the equal division of the octave and the equal division of the fifth,
the next step could be the equal division of the major third into 4 steps
(4th root of 1.25) and simply forget about the octave as an imposing
interval.

--Wim Hoogewerf (Paris)

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

--- In tuning@y..., "Wim Hoogewerf" <wim.hoogewerf@f...> wrote:

> As a piano-tuning this makes sense, since the phenomena of
inharmonicity
> demands larger octaves if they want to be perceived as just to the
human
> ear. (Paul, Ed, Carl, am I right about this?)

Yes -- especially in the extreme registers.

>
> Interesting enough, Mr. Cordier published a book 'Le piano et la
justesse
> orchestrale'. I haven't red this book yet, but I can immediately
imagine one
> aspect: the tuning of all the strings in the orchestra, from double-
bass to
> violin, is based on a cumulation of perfect fifths. This array of
fifths can
> be found perfectly on the Cordier tuned piano.

I've seen the book and you're absolutely correct.

> After the equal division of the octave and the equal division of
the fifth,
> the next step could be the equal division of the major third into 4
steps
> (4th root of 1.25) and simply forget about the octave as an imposing
> interval.

Watch out -- the octaves in this system would be 41 cents flat! Ouch!

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

🔗jpehrson@rcn.com

🔗genewardsmith@juno.com

--- In tuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "Wim Hoogewerf" <wim.hoogewerf@f...> wrote:

> > After the equal division of the octave and the equal division of
> the fifth,
> > the next step could be the equal division of the major third into
4
> steps
> > (4th root of 1.25) and simply forget about the octave as an
imposing
> > interval.

> Watch out -- the octaves in this system would be 41 cents flat!
Ouch!

I think it would make much more sense to take 5^(1/28) as basic; then
3/2 ~ 5^(1/4) is 5.4 cents flat and 2 ~ 5^(3/7) is 5.9 cents flat.

If we are seeking after the bizarre, we could tune to intervals
derived from zeros of the Riemann Zeta function on the critical line
in the hope that this might represent some condition of maximum
perversity. The tunings nearest the 12-et are 11.8226, 18 cents
sharp, and 12.2485, 25 cents flat.

🔗Latchezar Dimitrov <latchezar_d@yahoo.com>

Hello whit a large smile :)))

Because for the first time i see (between lot's of
e-mails) that you beguin to understand me !
I know about my horrible english, ok :)
But I will try to continue tha disscution.
First I would specify about the TEQJ...
I have the book of Mr Cordier before...1985 !
Now I dont approve the TEQJ...

--- Wim Hoogewerf <wim.hoogewerf@fnac.net> a ï¿½critï¿½:
> Joe Pehrson:
> >
> > Is Mr. Dimitrov possibly talking about scales that
> use something
> > other than a 2:1 octave??
>
Yes ! "My" octave is larger(2/1), my fifth is smaler
660 if the A=440 and i applie my consept when
according my violin and when I play also :))

> Joe,
>
> Mr. Dimitrov replied already to your question.
> Indeed, the tuning-system
> proposed by Serge Cordier abandons the perfect
> octave. The name Cordier
> didn't come up so much on the tuning-list until now,
> I think. By coincidence
> I was confronted with his tuning, while visiting and
> working with two
> professional singers in the Paris region. They had
> their piano tuned by Mr.
> Cordier himself (he is working professionally as a
> piano-tuner in France)
> and they both were very satisfied with the result,
> and they are no
> microtonalists.
>
> Cordier's temperament is called TEQJ ('tempï¿½rament
> ï¿½gal ï¿½ quintes justes)
> and should not be confounded with the Pythagorean
> temperament. Cordier
> splits up the perfect fifth in 7 equal parts to find
> his semi-tones (so the
> 7th root of 1.5) and accepts that every new octave
> will be a 1/7th
> Pythagorean comma wide! So every 3/2 is perfect but
> only this interval and
> not the 3/1 or the 4/3.
>
> As a piano-tuning this makes sense, since the
> phenomena of inharmonicity
> demands larger octaves if they want to be perceived
> as just to the human
> ear. (Paul, Ed, Carl, am I right about this?)

The humain ear evaluate the hight frequency less than
the value physic and the bass sounds highter !

> Interesting enough, Mr. Cordier published a book 'Le
> piano et la justesse
> orchestrale'. I haven't red this book yet, but I can
> immediately imagine one
> aspect: the tuning of all the strings in the
> orchestra, from double-bass to
> violin, is based on a cumulation of perfect fifths.

Not so perfects ;)) Because all musicians with the
instruments lice violoncells or contrabasses use
harmonics octaves when they verify yours strings !!!
And they accorde himselfs highter...

> This array of fifths can
> be found perfectly on the Cordier tuned piano. Mr.
> Dimitrov, is that true?

In theory only :) Is true that the fifhs "Cordier" are
larger than the fifths "Bach"...
Also today nobody accord the piano like...
It is not the solution, I mean !
For me the half tones are like the letters in the
alphabet-they must be free of engagements harmonic or
melodic out of any context musical...

> Or do the string-players in an orchestra still
> slightly temper their open
> string fifths to prevent especially the low C being
> too low?
>
Never :)) They according all the time...

> After the equal division of the octave and the equal
> division of the fifth,
> the next step could be the equal division of the
> major third into 4 steps
> (4th root of 1.25) and simply forget about the
> octave as an imposing
> interval.

Why evry time we must have one IMPOSING interval ?!
That's the question ;P

>
> --Wim Hoogewerf (Paris)
>

Thank-you for the attention !

Mr Dimitrov

___________________________________________________________
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🔗Latchezar Dimitrov <latchezar_d@yahoo.com>

Hi again :)

Only one remark...

--- jacky_ligon@yahoo.com a ï¿½critï¿½: > --- In
tuning@y..., "Wim Hoogewerf"
> <wim.hoogewerf@f...> wrote:
> > Cordier's temperament is called TEQJ ('tempï¿½rament
> ï¿½gal ï¿½ quintes
> justes)and should not be confounded with the
> Pythagorean temperament.
> Cordier splits up the perfect fifth in 7 equal parts
> to find his semi-
> tones (so the 7th root of 1.5) and accepts that
> every new octave will
> be a 1/7th Pythagorean comma wide! So every 3/2 is
> perfect but only
> this interval and not the 3/1 or the 4/3.
> >
>
> Sounds beautiful!!!
>
> I love making music with ths sort of thing.
> Especially favor a
> stretched octave.

Stretched or expanded?
But attention ! Try with Cool Edit to hear no one but
6 expanded octaves-they sound not so beautifull...

Mr Dimitrov

>
> Just days ago I wrote a wedding piece for piano and
> it had perfect
> fifths and a 10 cents wide octave, but the tuning
> was a Phi-MOS.
>
> Best,
>
> Jacky Ligon
>

___________________________________________________________
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🔗Latchezar Dimitrov <latchezar_d@yahoo.com>

If I can to append only this:
I think that we can abandon no only the octave but
also the fifth ect

:))

--- jpehrson@rcn.com a ï¿½critï¿½: > --- In tuning@y...,
"Wim Hoogewerf"
> <wim.hoogewerf@f...> wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_27517.html#27517
>
>
> > Joe Pehrson:
> > >
> > > Is Mr. Dimitrov possibly talking about scales
> that use something
> > > other than a 2:1 octave??
> >
> > Joe,
> >
> > Mr. Dimitrov replied already to your question.
> Indeed, the tuning-
> system proposed by Serge Cordier abandons the
> perfect octave.
>
> Thanks, Wim, for clearing this up!
>
> _________ _________ _________
> Joseph Pehrson
>
>

___________________________________________________________
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🔗Latchezar Dimitrov <latchezar_d@yahoo.com>

Sorry ,

I dont see any problem if we dont use any perfect
interval(exept the unisson, sure)
Think about :)
Dimitrov

--- genewardsmith@juno.com a ï¿½critï¿½: > --- In
tuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> > --- In tuning@y..., "Wim Hoogewerf"
> <wim.hoogewerf@f...> wrote:
>
> > > After the equal division of the octave and the
> equal division of
> > the fifth,
> > > the next step could be the equal division of the
> major third into
> 4
> > steps
> > > (4th root of 1.25) and simply forget about the
> octave as an
> imposing
> > > interval.
>
> > Watch out -- the octaves in this system would be
> 41 cents flat!
> Ouch!
>
> I think it would make much more sense to take
> 5^(1/28) as basic; then
> 3/2 ~ 5^(1/4) is 5.4 cents flat and 2 ~ 5^(3/7) is
> 5.9 cents flat.
>
> If we are seeking after the bizarre, we could tune
> to intervals
> derived from zeros of the Riemann Zeta function on
> the critical line
> in the hope that this might represent some condition
> of maximum
> perversity. The tunings nearest the 12-et are
> 11.8226, 18 cents
> sharp, and 12.2485, 25 cents flat.
>
>

___________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!? -- Un e-mail gratuit @yahoo.fr !
Yahoo! Courrier : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

--- In tuning@y..., Latchezar Dimitrov <latchezar_d@y...> wrote:
>
> The humain ear evaluate the hight frequency less than
> the value physic and the bass sounds highter !
>
This is true especially for sine waves. The more you have strong
harmonic partials, the smaller this effect.
>
> > Interesting enough, Mr. Cordier published a book 'Le
> > piano et la justesse
> > orchestrale'. I haven't red this book yet, but I can
> > immediately imagine one
> > aspect: the tuning of all the strings in the
> > orchestra, from double-bass to
> > violin, is based on a cumulation of perfect fifths.
>
> Not so perfects ;)) Because all musicians with the
> instruments lice violoncells or contrabasses use
> harmonics octaves when they verify yours strings !!!
> And they accorde himselfs highter...

I think you may be misunderstanding something. Can you explain what
you're thinking here?

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

🔗Latchezar Dimitrov <latchezar_d@yahoo.com>

Hi, Paul

When any violoncellist try to accord, he use the
octave
(the first harmonic) because it's easly to hear(the
register is highter), but this octave is perfect and
in the orchestral tunning (where we have the strings
in fifths) it's wrong to use this method. The result
is that the violoncell is too hight tuned...

Dimitrov

--- Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com> a ï¿½critï¿½: >
--- In tuning@y..., Latchezar Dimitrov
> <latchezar_d@y...> wrote:
> >
> > The humain ear evaluate the hight frequency less
> than
> > the value physic and the bass sounds highter !
> >
> This is true especially for sine waves. The more you
> have strong
> harmonic partials, the smaller this effect.
> >
> > > Interesting enough, Mr. Cordier published a book
> 'Le
> > > piano et la justesse
> > > orchestrale'. I haven't red this book yet, but I
> can
> > > immediately imagine one
> > > aspect: the tuning of all the strings in the
> > > orchestra, from double-bass to
> > > violin, is based on a cumulation of perfect
> fifths.
> >
> > Not so perfects ;)) Because all musicians with the
> > instruments lice violoncells or contrabasses use
> > harmonics octaves when they verify yours strings
> !!!
> > And they accorde himselfs highter...
>
> I think you may be misunderstanding something. Can
> you explain what
> you're thinking here?
>
>

___________________________________________________________
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Re : [tuning] Re: temperament equal(new?)

🔗Wim Hoogewerf <wim.hoogewerf@fnac.net>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

🔗jpehrson@rcn.com

🔗genewardsmith@juno.com

🔗Latchezar Dimitrov <latchezar_d@yahoo.com>

🔗Latchezar Dimitrov <latchezar_d@yahoo.com>

🔗Latchezar Dimitrov <latchezar_d@yahoo.com>

🔗Latchezar Dimitrov <latchezar_d@yahoo.com>

🔗Latchezar Dimitrov <latchezar_d@yahoo.com>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

🔗Latchezar Dimitrov <latchezar_d@yahoo.com>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

🔗Latchezar Dimitrov <latchezar_d@yahoo.com>