Wobblies (was Re: New Bach tuning for Paul E)

[I wrote:]
>>Would you be interested in hearing these versions (both more "justy"
>>than either of yesterday's)? If so, I'll upload 'em.

[Joe:]
>Sure! I guess that means that *eventually* I'll start hearing
>the "wobblies," yes?? So far, I'm not getting that effect....

Ha, I've got some wobblies for you! "vv" versions: very very stiff
vertical springs, no horizontal springs, the usual grounding springs.
Each tiny slice of time with a consistent set of notes sounding makes
its own little JI chord. The center of tuning for each little time
slice _is_ still controlled by COFT grounding, but the grounding springs
do not act to restrain horizontal motion when the vertical intervals
demand it.

I also did the lovely Mozart K.280 piano sonata. Listen to the second
movement (8:02 to 15:35) and you'll hear it! Then try the same in the
"Paul" tuning, with fairly soft vertical springs and no horizontal
springs. The effect is much more subtle, of course, because the
grounding springs have sway over vertical intervals (and horizontal
motion) to some significant extent.

JdL

--- In tuning@y..., "John A. deLaubenfels" <jdl@a...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_27516.html#27516

> [I wrote:]
> >>Would you be interested in hearing these versions (both
more "justy" than either of yesterday's)? If so, I'll upload 'em.
>
> [Joe:]
> >Sure! I guess that means that *eventually* I'll start hearing
> >the "wobblies," yes?? So far, I'm not getting that effect....
>
> Ha, I've got some wobblies for you! "vv" versions: very very stiff
> vertical springs, no horizontal springs, the usual grounding
springs.
> Each tiny slice of time with a consistent set of notes sounding
makes its own little JI chord. The center of tuning for each little
time slice _is_ still controlled by COFT grounding, but the grounding
springs do not act to restrain horizontal motion when the vertical
intervals demand it.
>
> I also did the lovely Mozart K.280 piano sonata. Listen to the
second movement (8:02 to 15:35) and you'll hear it! Then try the
same in the "Paul" tuning, with fairly soft vertical springs and no
horizontal
> springs. The effect is much more subtle, of course, because the
> grounding springs have sway over vertical intervals (and horizontal
> motion) to some significant extent.
>
> JdL

Hi John!

Yes, I *did* hear the "wobblies" this time, particularly in the vvv
Mozart file!

It seemed as if pitch was sometimes "adjusting" shortly after the
attack, when other accompanying pitches came along.

I have a question about that, though... I didn't realize that you
could change the pitch of a note *after* the attack had already
sounded...

Can you do that?? I thought once the note was sounded it didn't
accept any more "bending" information??

In any case, the changes in intonation we call "wobblies" are not far
afield from what regular *human* players do with intonation...
sometimes...yes??, so, in a sense, aren't the "wobblies" a kind of
intonational "humanization??"

Just curious...

__________ _________ _____
Joseph Pehrson

> I also did the lovely Mozart K.280 piano sonata. Listen to the
> second movement (8:02 to 15:35) and you'll hear it!

Hooray!

> Then try the same in the
> "Paul" tuning, with fairly soft vertical springs and no horizontal
> springs. The effect is much more subtle, of course, because the
> grounding springs have sway over vertical intervals (and horizontal
> motion) to some significant extent.

Also good.

-Carl

[Joseph Pehrson wrote:]
>Yes, I *did* hear the "wobblies" this time, particularly in the vvv
>Mozart file!

Pretty unmistakable there.

>It seemed as if pitch was sometimes "adjusting" shortly after the
>attack, when other accompanying pitches came along.

Yes. Anything delayed by more than 64 msec (my usual setting for the
max length of a Pseudo-Simultaneous Event (PSE)) causes a new time slice
to be defined, which, without horizontal restraint, shifts the
intonation of sounding notes at will (as required by changing vertical
pressures, balanced by grounding springs).

>I have a question about that, though... I didn't realize that you
>could change the pitch of a note *after* the attack had already
>sounded...
>
>Can you do that?? I thought once the note was sounded it didn't
>accept any more "bending" information??

Actually, the pitch bend message is intended to be used for real-time
glissandos, usually after a note is started. So it's well-suited for
adaptive tuning from that standpoint.

>In any case, the changes in intonation we call "wobblies" are not far
>afield from what regular *human* players do with intonation...
>sometimes...yes??, so, in a sense, aren't the "wobblies" a kind of
>intonational "humanization??"

Maybe. Some adjustment takes place even when full-strength horizontal
springs are present; it's just much smaller. I think the 2nd mvmt of
the Mozart in vv sounds pretty strange. The Bach sounds pretty good
much of the time, but occasionally not. For me, it does depend upon my
mood as well: sometimes I like it, sometimes not.

>Just curious...

Me too!

JdL