temperament equal(new?)

Hi there,

I'm violinist in the Opera of Nice - France.
My english is very bad and limited...
I have one question about the actually used temperament when
according the electronic instruments.What's used like ?
Do you think that the temperament equal is good ?
Have-you made the experiences to discover one new temperament (stil
equal) ?
Everybody know that between the K1(Bach-octave perfect)
and K2(Serge Cordier-quinte perfect) we can imagine lots of
temperaments equals...The question is what's the best ?!
How I could try one temperament ? Programming the sound card of my
PC ? My sound card is AWE32 and i think having one soft for(Vienna).
On papper I has discover very good and universel half tone :) The
unique possible I mean...

Will look for mail from You
Thank-you for your attention !

Mr Dimitrov

--- In tuning@y..., latchezar_d@y... wrote:

/tuning/topicId_27386.html#27386

> Hi there,
>
> I'm violinist in the Opera of Nice - France.
> My english is very bad and limited...
> I have one question about the actually used temperament when
> according the electronic instruments.What's used like ?
> Do you think that the temperament equal is good ?
> Have-you made the experiences to discover one new temperament (stil
> equal) ?
> Everybody know that between the K1(Bach-octave perfect)
> and K2(Serge Cordier-quinte perfect) we can imagine lots of
> temperaments equals...The question is what's the best ?!
> How I could try one temperament ? Programming the sound card of my
> PC ? My sound card is AWE32 and i think having one soft for(Vienna).
> On papper I has discover very good and universel half tone :) The
> unique possible I mean...
>
> Will look for mail from You
> Thank-you for your attention !
>
> Mr Dimitrov

Hello there, Mr. Dimitrov. It rather looks as if you are interested
in comparing various equal temperaments. Paul Erlich has a great
chart which does this, but I can't find it at the moment.

I'm sure Paul will show us where this is... It used to be in
the "files" section of this forum.

Where is this chart, Paul (from the 22-TTT paper of course)... and
do you think this is what Mr. Dimitrov is asking??

________ _______ ______
Joseph Pehrson

--- In tuning@y..., jpehrson@r... wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., latchezar_d@y... wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_27386.html#27386
>
> > Hi there,
> >
> > I'm violinist in the Opera of Nice - France.
> > My english is very bad and limited...
> > I have one question about the actually used temperament when
> > according the electronic instruments.What's used like ?
> > Do you think that the temperament equal is good ?
> > Have-you made the experiences to discover one new temperament
(stil
> > equal) ?
> > Everybody know that between the K1(Bach-octave perfect)
> > and K2(Serge Cordier-quinte perfect) we can imagine lots of
> > temperaments equals...The question is what's the best ?!
> > How I could try one temperament ? Programming the sound card of
my
> > PC ? My sound card is AWE32 and i think having one soft for
(Vienna).
> > On papper I has discover very good and universel half tone :) The
> > unique possible I mean...
> >
> > Will look for mail from You
> > Thank-you for your attention !
> >
> > Mr Dimitrov
>
> Hello there, Mr. Dimitrov. It rather looks as if you are
interested
> in comparing various equal temperaments. Paul Erlich has a great
> chart which does this, but I can't find it at the moment.
>
> I'm sure Paul will show us where this is... It used to be in
> the "files" section of this forum.
>
> Where is this chart, Paul (from the 22-TTT paper of course)...

/tuning/files/figure11.gif

> and
> do you think this is what Mr. Dimitrov is asking??

I'm not sure -- he may be asking about the optimal amount of
stretching for 12-tET -- I'll attempt to address that tomorrow.

--- In tuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_27386.html#27430
> >
> > Where is this chart, Paul (from the 22-TTT paper of course)...
>
> /tuning/files/figure11.gif
>

Oh... it's right in the *root* of the files directory... no wonder I
couldn't find it!

__________ ________ ______
Joseph Pehrson

--- In tuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> I'm not sure -- he may be asking about the optimal amount of
> stretching for 12-tET -- I'll attempt to address that tomorrow.

Yes. I understand that's what he's asking too.

-- Dave Keenan

Hello to all :)

I must specify and clarify better my interests:
1)Would to discover one Equal 12 half tones
temperament.
2)Dont resiste to listen microtonals scales :)) I play
violin before more 45 years and...
3) In my question I had use K and K1. K=12th squar of
2 and K1=7th squar of 1.5, ok? If we use A=440
K*440=Bb (in the Bach's temperament) K1*440=Bb in the
temperament of Mr Serge Cordier(TEQJ)
Between K and K1 we have lots of possibles values of
K.
Minimal half tone or maximal if we use K1.
I believe that exist only ONE half tone-just and
universel !
What do you think about ?
Greatings and happy tunning :)
Mr Dimitrov

--- In tuning@y..., jpehrson@r... wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., latchezar_d@y... wrote:
>
> </tuning/topicId_27386.html#27386>
>
> > Hi there,
> >
> > I'm violinist in the Opera of Nice - France.
> > My english is very bad and limited...
> > I have one question about the actually used
temperament when
> > according the electronic instruments.What's used
like ?
> > Do you think that the temperament equal is good ?
> > Have-you made the experiences to discover one new
temperament
(stil
> > equal) ?
> > Everybody know that between the K1(Bach-octave
perfect)
> > and K2(Serge Cordier-quinte perfect) we can
imagine lots of
> > temperaments equals...The question is what's the
best ?!
> > How I could try one temperament ? Programming the
sound card of
my
> > PC ? My sound card is AWE32 and i think having one
soft for
(Vienna).
> > On papper I has discover very good and universel
half tone :) The
> > unique possible I mean...
> >
> > Will look for mail from You
> > Thank-you for your attention !
> >
> > Mr Dimitrov
>
> Hello there, Mr. Dimitrov. It rather looks as if you
are
interested
> in comparing various equal temperaments. Paul Erlich
has a great
> chart which does this, but I can't find it at the
moment.
>
> I'm sure Paul will show us where this is... It used
to be in
> the "files" section of this forum.
>
> Where is this chart, Paul (from the 22-TTT paper of
course)...

</tuning/files/figure11.gif>

> and
> do you think this is what Mr. Dimitrov is asking??

I'm not sure -- he may be asking about the optimal
amount of
stretching for 12-tET -- I'll attempt to address that
tomorrow.

___________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!? -- Un e-mail gratuit @yahoo.fr !
Yahoo! Courrier : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com

--- In tuning@y..., "Dave Keenan" <D.KEENAN@U...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> > I'm not sure -- he may be asking about the optimal amount of
> > stretching for 12-tET -- I'll attempt to address that tomorrow.
>
> Yes. I understand that's what he's asking too.
>
> -- Dave Keenan

For an integer limit of 6, I get that the optimal "stretching" is
actually a "compression" -- 12.018 tones per 2/1, or 99.85-CET -- the
octave becomes 1198.2 cents.

--- In tuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:

> For an integer limit of 6, I get that the optimal "stretching" is
> actually a "compression" -- 12.018 tones per 2/1, or 99.85-CET --
the
> octave becomes 1198.2 cents.

The Gram tuning gives 12.0176... tones per octave, or 99.853.. cents
per tone; the octave is flat by 1.76 cents. This is essentially the
value above, though obtained in a completely different way. The Z
tuning, which tunes the octave to the nearest exteme value of Z(t),
is 12.023 tones per octave, or 99.807... cents per tone. It is 2.31
cents flat.

The mathematical reader who is wondering what in the world I am
talking about should refer to message 879 on tuning-math; anyone else
can take my word for it. :)

Mr Erlich,

I think the folow:
stretching one octave is inusual and is contre the
phys. particularity of perception humain...why do you
not try to expand the octave?

Mr Dimitrov

--- Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com> a �crit�: >
--- In tuning@y..., "Dave Keenan" <D.KEENAN@U...>
> wrote:
> > --- In tuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...>
> wrote:
> > > I'm not sure -- he may be asking about the
> optimal amount of
> > > stretching for 12-tET -- I'll attempt to address
> that tomorrow.
> >
> > Yes. I understand that's what he's asking too.
> >
> > -- Dave Keenan
>
> For an integer limit of 6, I get that the optimal
> "stretching" is
> actually a "compression" -- 12.018 tones per 2/1, or
> 99.85-CET -- the
> octave becomes 1198.2 cents.
>
>

___________________________________________________________
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--- In tuning@y..., Latchezar Dimitrov <latchezar_d@y...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_27386.html#27490

> Mr Erlich,
>
> I think the folow:
> stretching one octave is inusual and is contre the
> phys. particularity of perception humain...why do you
> not try to expand the octave?
>
> Mr Dimitrov

Is Mr. Dimitrov possibly talking about scales that use something
other than a 2:1 octave??

_________ _______ _______
Joseph Pehrson

--- In tuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "Dave Keenan" <D.KEENAN@U...> wrote:
> > --- In tuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> > > I'm not sure -- he may be asking about the optimal amount of
> > > stretching for 12-tET -- I'll attempt to address that tomorrow.
> >
> > Yes. I understand that's what he's asking too.
> >
> > -- Dave Keenan
>
> For an integer limit of 6, I get that the optimal "stretching" is
> actually a "compression" -- 12.018 tones per 2/1, or 99.85-CET --
the
> octave becomes 1198.2 cents.

Paul, what optimum do you get for an integer limit (harmonic limit) of
4? Mr Dimitrov only mentioned octaves and fifths.

Hi again to all,

Yes, I can talking about and it's my prefered
subject:)
--- jpehrson@rcn.com a �crit�: > --- In tuning@y...,
Latchezar Dimitrov
> <latchezar_d@y...> wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_27386.html#27490
>
> > Mr Erlich,
> >
> > I think the folow:
> > stretching one octave is inusual and is contre the
> > phys. particularity of perception humain...why do
> you
> > not try to expand the octave?
> >
> > Mr Dimitrov
>
> Is Mr. Dimitrov possibly talking about scales that
> use something
> other than a 2:1 octave??
>
> _________ _______ _______
> Joseph Pehrson
>
Mr Pehrson,

We can imagine the temperament like the time in the
world. When alls of the seconds are equals :)
When alls the letters of alphabet are neutrals before
forming any word... If the octave is 2/1 it's the
beguining of the temperaments equals and the value of
the half tone is the shorter acceptable. When this
half tone augment we can have lots of differents
equals temperaments but never this half tone must to
be greater that 7ht squar of 1.5 ! Because in any
equal temperament we can have like base a octave just
or a quinte just and never the both in the same time !
I dont know if you can understand my bad english :)
Waiting more questions...
Greatings

Mr Dimitrov

___________________________________________________________
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--- Dave Keenan <D.KEENAN@UQ.NET.AU> a �crit�: > ---
In tuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> > --- In tuning@y..., "Dave Keenan" <D.KEENAN@U...>
> wrote:
> > > --- In tuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...>
> wrote:
> > > > I'm not sure -- he may be asking about the
> optimal amount of
> > > > stretching for 12-tET -- I'll attempt to
> address that tomorrow.
> > >
> > > Yes. I understand that's what he's asking too.
> > >
> > > -- Dave Keenan
> >
> > For an integer limit of 6, I get that the optimal
> "stretching" is
> > actually a "compression" -- 12.018 tones per 2/1,
> or 99.85-CET --
> the
> > octave becomes 1198.2 cents.
>
> Paul, what optimum do you get for an integer limit
> (harmonic limit) of
> 4? Mr Dimitrov only mentioned octaves and fifths.
>
>
Yes , only...Because everyone know that the first
harmonic is the octave and the second octave+fifth...
Or the 1/2 and 1/3 of the string who make the sound...

___________________________________________________________
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--- In tuning@y..., Latchezar Dimitrov <latchezar_d@y...> wrote:
> Mr Erlich,
>
> I think the folow:
> stretching one octave is inusual and is contre the
> phys. particularity of perception humain...why do you
> not try to expand the octave?
>
> Mr Dimitrov

Stretching _is_ expansion -- yes, for sine waves, humans tend to
prefer _stretched_ melodic octaves; also on pianos, where the
overtones are stretched relative to a harmonic series, stretched
octaves sound more "in tune". My calculations only dealt with
minimizing the errors of the usual "consonant" harmonic intervals,
assuming perfectly harmonic overtones, and ignoring melodic
considerations.

The stretched-octave tunings that are used for pianos are least
stretched in the middle ranges, most on the outside . . . we've
discussed this in the past . . .

--- In tuning@y..., "Dave Keenan" <D.KEENAN@U...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> > --- In tuning@y..., "Dave Keenan" <D.KEENAN@U...> wrote:
> > > --- In tuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> > > > I'm not sure -- he may be asking about the optimal amount of
> > > > stretching for 12-tET -- I'll attempt to address that
tomorrow.
> > >
> > > Yes. I understand that's what he's asking too.
> > >
> > > -- Dave Keenan
> >
> > For an integer limit of 6, I get that the optimal "stretching" is
> > actually a "compression" -- 12.018 tones per 2/1, or 99.85-CET --
> the
> > octave becomes 1198.2 cents.
>
> Paul, what optimum do you get for an integer limit (harmonic limit)
of
> 4? Mr Dimitrov only mentioned octaves and fifths.\

I get 11.994 tones per 2/1, or 100.29-CET . . . the octave becomes
1203.4 cents. Stretched!

--- Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com> a �crit�: >
--- In tuning@y..., Latchezar Dimitrov
> <latchezar_d@y...> wrote:
> > Mr Erlich,
> >
> > I think the folow:
> > stretching one octave is inusual and is contre the
> > phys. particularity of perception humain...why do
> you
> > not try to expand the octave?
> >
> > Mr Dimitrov
>
> Stretching _is_ expansion -- yes, for sine waves,
> humans tend to
> prefer _stretched_ melodic octaves; also on pianos,
> where the
> overtones are stretched relative to a harmonic
> series, stretched
> octaves sound more "in tune". My calculations only
> dealt with
> minimizing the errors of the usual "consonant"
> harmonic intervals,
> assuming perfectly harmonic overtones, and ignoring
> melodic
> considerations.
>
> The stretched-octave tunings that are used for
> pianos are least
> stretched in the middle ranges, most on the outside
> . . . we've
> discussed this in the past . .

Sorry for my english one more time, but here the
traduction of the word stretching is "detendre"...

Is the temperament equal if the octaves are differents
in the middle ? :)

Greatings

Mr Dimitrov

___________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!? -- Un e-mail gratuit @yahoo.fr !
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--- Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com> a �crit�: >
--- In tuning@y..., "Dave Keenan" <D.KEENAN@U...>
> wrote:
> > --- In tuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...>
> wrote:
> > > --- In tuning@y..., "Dave Keenan"
> <D.KEENAN@U...> wrote:
> > > > --- In tuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...>
> wrote:
> > > > > I'm not sure -- he may be asking about the
> optimal amount of
> > > > > stretching for 12-tET -- I'll attempt to
> address that
> tomorrow.
> > > >
> > > > Yes. I understand that's what he's asking too.
> > > >
> > > > -- Dave Keenan
> > >
> > > For an integer limit of 6, I get that the
> optimal "stretching" is
> > > actually a "compression" -- 12.018 tones per
> 2/1, or 99.85-CET --
> > the
> > > octave becomes 1198.2 cents.
> >
> > Paul, what optimum do you get for an integer limit
> (harmonic limit)
> of
> > 4? Mr Dimitrov only mentioned octaves and fifths.\
>
> I get 11.994 tones per 2/1, or 100.29-CET . . . the
> octave becomes
> 1203.4 cents. Stretched!
>
Is it not easly to stop with the cents ?
The cent is PERFECT octave based unit !
We can use the coeficient for multiplie one
frequency... Like the 7th root of 1.5 in the TEQJ - if
we multiply for sample A 440 12 times with this
coeficient the highter A will be +800 Hz

Dimitrov

___________________________________________________________
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--- In tuning@y..., Latchezar Dimitrov <latchezar_d@y...> wrote:
>
> Sorry for my english one more time, but here the
> traduction of the word stretching is "detendre"...
>
> Is the temperament equal if the octaves are differents
> in the middle ? :)

It's _perceptually_ equal, though not _physically_ equal. This is the
standard tuning of the piano today -- Monz has some of these
stretching curves on his website, I believe.

--- In tuning@y..., Latchezar Dimitrov <latchezar_d@y...> wrote:
> --- Paul Erlich <paul@s...> a écrit : >
> --- In tuning@y..., "Dave Keenan" <D.KEENAN@U...> wrote:
> > > Paul, what optimum do you get for an integer limit
> > (harmonic limit)
> > of
> > > 4? Mr Dimitrov only mentioned octaves and fifths.\
> >
> > I get 11.994 tones per 2/1, or 100.29-CET . . . the
> > octave becomes
> > 1203.4 cents. Stretched!
> >
> Is it not easly to stop with the cents ?
> The cent is PERFECT octave based unit !
> We can use the coeficient for multiplie one
> frequency... Like the 7th root of 1.5 in the TEQJ - if
> we multiply for sample A 440 12 times with this
> coeficient the highter A will be +800 Hz

It's easy enough to convert from cents to ratios.

100.29 cents = 1.0596 . . .

Multiply A-400 by this 12 times and you get the higher A as 881.77

--- Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com> a �crit�: >
--- In tuning@y..., Latchezar Dimitrov
> <latchezar_d@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Sorry for my english one more time, but here the
> > traduction of the word stretching is "detendre"...
> >
> > Is the temperament equal if the octaves are
> differents
> > in the middle ? :)
>
> It's _perceptually_ equal, though not _physically_
> equal. This is the
> standard tuning of the piano today -- Monz has some
> of these
> stretching curves on his website, I believe.
>
Do you know why ? If the perception is equal...

Latchezar

___________________________________________________________
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--- In tuning@y..., Latchezar Dimitrov <latchezar_d@y...> wrote:
> --- Paul Erlich <paul@s...> a écrit : >
> --- In tuning@y..., Latchezar Dimitrov
> > <latchezar_d@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Sorry for my english one more time, but here the
> > > traduction of the word stretching is "detendre"...
> > >
> > > Is the temperament equal if the octaves are
> > differents
> > > in the middle ? :)
> >
> > It's _perceptually_ equal, though not _physically_
> > equal. This is the
> > standard tuning of the piano today -- Monz has some
> > of these
> > stretching curves on his website, I believe.
> >
> Do you know why ? If the perception is equal...

Ed Foote posted part of the explanation. The other part is simply the
psychoacoustical fact that the perceptual pitch scale for sine waves is not=

precisely a logarithmic scale.