Vicentino piece in Vicentino's adaptive JI (MIDI)

Hello, there, Paul Erlich and Bob Wendell and everyone.

Since there's been a bit of discussion about Vicentino's adaptive JI
system, I'd like to offer a MIDI file of one of Vicentino's chromatic
pieces in this system. Thanks to everyone who has lent me
encouragement and incitement in this over the last years:

MIDI: <http://value.net/~mschulter/qcmaval1.mid>

This piece shows an interesting side of Nicola Vicentino (1511-1576)
as a composer: it's an Easter setting, _Alleluia: Haec dies_, which he
included in his treatise of 1555 as a chromatic piece singable by a
church choir.

An adaptive JI version nicely shows the second tuning of Vicentino's
archicembalo or "superharpsichord" in action, with two meantone
manuals at 1/4-comma (~5.38 cents) apart. Two versions of each note
are available, and we just pick the right mixture to get "perfect
fifths and perfect thirds," as he puts it.

Occasionally I've gone with tempered meantone intervals, for example
if adaptive JI would require a quartercomma shift in the middle of a
sustained note. My metaphor is that of a fixed-pitch keyboard, the
actual technology of Vicentino's implementation on his archicembalo
and also his arciorgano or "superorgan" described in 1561.

One conclusion I might draw from this is that if some kind of
mechanism for a "player harpsichord" or "player organ" had been
available in the 16th century, Vicentino's system could have very
quickly proven its practicality.

Of course, Vicentino's solution is style-specific: it's designed for
getting pure 16th-century concords, and for other kinds of musics,
European or otherwise, the solutions might be quite different.

Thus I'd consider Vicentino's system an impressive success once some
kind of technology is available to "program" the choice of notes, say
a mechanical roll for a player harpsichord or organ, as mentioned
above.

Additionally, as has been discussed here in various threads from time
to time, Vicentino's system may model one approach used by actual
performers of Renaissance and Manneristic music to achieve pure
concords with minimal melodic unevenness.

Zarlino suggests this when he observes that singers seem avoid the
"least intervals" such as the syntonic comma heard on keyboards tuned
to the syntonic diatonic, and that since singers can produce whatever
pitches may be needed, they will act so as to seek concord.

Anyway, I'm delighted to have the opportunity to post this example of
Vicentino's music, in his own adaptive JI system, at such a topical
time.

Most appreciatively,

Margo Schulter
mschulter@value.net

--- In tuning@y..., mschulter <MSCHULTER@V...> wrote:
>
> Zarlino suggests this when he observes that singers seem avoid the
> "least intervals" such as the syntonic comma heard on keyboards
tuned
> to the syntonic diatonic, and that since singers can produce
whatever
> pitches may be needed, they will act so as to seek concord.

. . . which two observations, taken together, clearly imply some form
of adaptive JI, as opposed to either strict JI or meantone
temperament.

(A rare case of Margo being too concise!)

--- In tuning@y..., mschulter <MSCHULTER@V...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_27046.html#27046

> Hello, there, Paul Erlich and Bob Wendell and everyone.
>
> Since there's been a bit of discussion about Vicentino's adaptive JI
> system, I'd like to offer a MIDI file of one of Vicentino's
chromatic
> pieces in this system. Thanks to everyone who has lent me
> encouragement and incitement in this over the last years:
>
> MIDI: <http://value.net/~mschulter/qcmaval1.mid>
>

Personally... I found this very engrossing...

________ ________ _______
Joseph Pehrson

--- In tuning@y..., mschulter <MSCHULTER@V...> wrote:
>
> MIDI: <http://value.net/~mschulter/qcmaval1.mid>

This was wonderful, Margo . . . thanks.

If it's not too much trouble, Margo, would you make a version where
the pitch of a sustained note _does_ shift by 1/4-comma in the midst
of playing, and all the triads are in vertical JI? I wonder if I'll
be able to hear the 1/4-comma shift at all . . .

Yes, Margo, this was truly wonderful! I too am intensely interested
in your response to Paul's request below for the quarter-comma shift
version. He and I have been pondering in another thread the
audibility limits with respect to size of melodic shifts.

I think we both ended up agreeing that melodic shifts of a given size
are generally less disturbing than harmonic departures from JI of the
same size, but that this is somewhat conditioned by whether melodic
or harmonic structure dominates the passage in question. I'm sure
Paul will correct me if I'm not representing him accurately here.

Thanks!

Bob

P.S. I would like to stick my vulnerable little neck out and predict
that although a quarter comma is not so bad harmonically (otherwise
we'd have to throw out quarter-comma meantone), it is even less
disturbing melodically. I don't even think drifting the tonality by a
quarter comma would disturb most ears, even the pickiest ones, if
they were to listen without having been advised of it beforehand.
Unfortunately, we can't test the last element of that hypothesis
here, but we could elsewhere as long as we use highly qualified ears.

--- In tuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., mschulter <MSCHULTER@V...> wrote:
> >
> > MIDI: <http://value.net/~mschulter/qcmaval1.mid>
>
> This was wonderful, Margo . . . thanks.
>
> If it's not too much trouble, Margo, would you make a version where
> the pitch of a sustained note _does_ shift by 1/4-comma in the
midst
> of playing, and all the triads are in vertical JI? I wonder if I'll
> be able to hear the 1/4-comma shift at all . . .

--- In tuning@y..., BobWendell@t... wrote:
> Yes, Margo, this was truly wonderful! I too am intensely interested
> in your response to Paul's request below for the quarter-comma
shift
> version. He and I have been pondering in another thread the
> audibility limits with respect to size of melodic shifts.
>
> I think we both ended up agreeing that melodic shifts of a given
size
> are generally less disturbing than harmonic departures from JI of
the
> same size,

I don't think we got quite that far!

> but that this is somewhat conditioned by whether melodic
> or harmonic structure dominates the passage in question. I'm sure
> Paul will correct me if I'm not representing him accurately here.

The structure of the passage, and other factors, overwhelm any
attempt to make a distinction here. For a counterexample, someone
used to and trained in 12-tET may not notice the _harmonic_ effect of
making some major triads just, which involves a shift of about 15
cents in some harmonic intervals, while a melodic shift of about 15
cents may be very disturbing to said listener. If you object that we
are comparing a harmonic _improvement_ to a melodic _worsening_,
well, how about a minor triad in which the minor third is _lowered_
by 15 cents. I think, if there are no associated melodic problems
(say all shifts are cleverly distributed out), this minor triad will
pass accepted without notice, even though it represents a worsening
with respect to both the 10:12:15 and the 16:19:24 ideals for the
minor triad. All this is conditional on the music moving along at a
normal pace -- for slow passages, harmonic mistuning is likely to
become more important.

> Thanks!
>
> Bob
>
> P.S. I would like to stick my vulnerable little neck out and
predict
> that although a quarter comma is not so bad harmonically (otherwise
> we'd have to throw out quarter-comma meantone), it is even less
> disturbing melodically.

In this instance, I have to agree! A quarter comma seems to live just
safely below the limen of melodic discriminability in most cases (the
exceptions consisting mainly of those who have trained themselves
specifically to hear 5-cent melodic intervals).

> I don't even think drifting the tonality by a
> quarter comma would disturb most ears, even the pickiest ones, if
> they were to listen without having been advised of it beforehand.

Agreed.

> Unfortunately, we can't test the last element of that hypothesis
> here,

Why not? Even Vicentino's tuning provides for two versions of each
1/4-comma meantone triad, 1/4-comma apart. Though perhaps one
wouldn't be able to take advantage to this in a progression that
qualifies as "drifting" in the sense you were thinking (?)

> but we could elsewhere as long as we use highly qualified > ears.

Aren't untrained ears the best for such experiments? Though
personally, I obey my own ears when making musical decisions -- how
could I do otherwise?