Two tunings at once

I jammed with a sax player a few years ago; I played 19 tone guitar,
he played 12 tone sax...sounded great. We were playing pretty free, so
that helped. I think using different tunings to play together has
potential, if it's done with the right spirit. If it sounds good, then
nothing else matters. I've always wondered, in this vein, what it
sounded like when Bach jammed with lutenist Sylvius Weiss...Weiss was
probably using a 12 eq lute; was Bach tuned to Well Temp, or did he
maybe retune to match Weiss? Or, did anybody worry about it? We'll
probably never know...Hstick

on 8/9/01 11:10 AM, tuning@yahoogroups.com at tuning@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> From: "Neil Haverstick" <STICK@USWEST.NET>
> Subject: Two tunings at once
>
> I jammed with a sax player a few years ago; I played 19 tone guitar,
> he played 12 tone sax...sounded great. We were playing pretty free, so
> that helped. I think using different tunings to play together has
> potential, if it's done with the right spirit. If it sounds good, then
> nothing else matters.

I love the juxtaposition of 12-tET instruments such as piano, guitar,
mandolins, etc with 5 and 7 limit vocals, fiddles, bagpipes and fretless
banjos found in Celtic, Appalachian, blues and other folk styles. To me, it
really makes it, almost more than if everything was tuned the same.

> I've always wondered, in this vein, what it
> sounded like when Bach jammed with lutenist Sylvius Weiss...Weiss was
> probably using a 12 eq lute; was Bach tuned to Well Temp, or did he
> maybe retune to match Weiss? Or, did anybody worry about it? We'll
> probably never know...Hstick

If I could go back in time, there's some jams I'd love to have heard.

Seth

--
Seth Austen

http://www.sethausten.com
emails: seth@sethausten.com
klezmusic@earthlink.net

I just mentioned my Robert Johnson webpage in a post in the
"Higher Primes, not Greek" thread.
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/rjohnson/drunken.htm

I wanted to mention in connection with this thread that
in this song, except for a very few pitch-bends on the guitar,
Johnson is playing 12-EDO on his guitar in accompaniment to
his highly microtonal vocal.

On the webpage, I analyze the tuning of his vocal rationally,
but there certainly may be other, more elegant ways to model
that tuning mathematically. I've been waiting for the math-geeks
to give it a go, but no takers so far...

BTW [plug alert!], I'll be giving a presentation based on an
expansion of this webpage, at the El Paso Microtonal Conference,
November 1-4 (Texas). (And also another performance of my
piece _A Noiseless Patient Spider_).
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/spider/spider.htm

love / peace / harmony ...

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Hi, Neal. I majored in violin, but grew up in bands playing trumpet
and French horn. Any wind player with a good ear can play with ANY
intonation and sound good if his ear is sensitive enough. You can
bend the tone almost a full semitone on most wind instruments, and
the amount of bending for most alternative tunings is way inside
that ballpark! A sax is one of the most flexible of the winds in this
regard, which in addition to its "boss" timbre makes it so great for
jazz!

There are some people who'll try to argue that they play certain
notes out of tune because the instrumental design is necessarily
compromised by the physical constraints of its operation. For
example, the low D and C# on a trumpet have a physical resonance
center that is sharp to equal temperament, the "ideal" to which these
modern instrumental designs are tuned. So we have a compromise on the
compromise! Sounds pretty gruesome!

However, even WITHOUT the slide levers that exist on the better
designs to allow manual lengthening of the valve tubing, a good
trumpeter will spontaneously adjust his embouchure to compensate.
Some will argue that the latter approach compromises excessively the
beauty of the timbre by going off resonance too far!

First, it's not that far in terms of the Q factor or sharpness of the
resonance. Further, if the note is long enough to justify it, they
can eliminate this problem with their thumb on the slide lever! If
not, I feel strongly that the pitch accuracy far outweighs the value
of any alleged improvement in timbre on a short note.

My take from historical experience with these specious arguments is
that the true overriding concern behind them is a need to excuse a
very poor ear!

- Bob

--- In tuning@y..., Seth Austen <klezmusic@e...> wrote:
> on 8/9/01 11:10 AM, tuning@y... at tuning@y... wrote:
>
>
> > From: "Neil Haverstick" <STICK@U...>
> > Subject: Two tunings at once
> >
> > I jammed with a sax player a few years ago; I played 19 tone
guitar,
> > he played 12 tone sax...sounded great. We were playing pretty
free, so
> > that helped. I think using different tunings to play together has
> > potential, if it's done with the right spirit. If it sounds good,
then
> > nothing else matters.
>
> I love the juxtaposition of 12-tET instruments such as piano,
guitar,
> mandolins, etc with 5 and 7 limit vocals, fiddles, bagpipes and
fretless
> banjos found in Celtic, Appalachian, blues and other folk styles.
To me, it
> really makes it, almost more than if everything was tuned the same.
>
> > I've always wondered, in this vein, what it
> > sounded like when Bach jammed with lutenist Sylvius Weiss...Weiss
was
> > probably using a 12 eq lute; was Bach tuned to Well Temp, or did
he
> > maybe retune to match Weiss? Or, did anybody worry about it? We'll
> > probably never know...Hstick
>
> If I could go back in time, there's some jams I'd love to have
heard.
>
> Seth
>
> --
> Seth Austen
>
> http://www.sethausten.com
> emails: seth@s...
> klezmusic@e...

--- In tuning@y..., BobWendell@t... wrote:

/tuning/topicId_26796.html#26899

> Hi, Neal. I majored in violin, but grew up in bands playing trumpet
> and French horn. Any wind player with a good ear can play with ANY
> intonation and sound good if his ear is sensitive enough. You can
> bend the tone almost a full semitone on most wind instruments, and
> the amount of bending for most alternative tunings is way inside
> that ballpark! A sax is one of the most flexible of the winds in
this regard, which in addition to its "boss" timbre makes it so great
for jazz!
>

Bob... this is truly encouraging news, since I have been avoiding
writing microtonality for woodwinds because I didn't think they could
play it precisely.

I know my friend Johnny Reinhard says it can be done, but Johnny
frequently says I don't listen to him... so this is probably another
instance of it! :)

Why, though, does Lou Harrison, let's say in his piano concerto,
avoid all woodwinds and brass except for the trombone?? Just curious.

And, I have a question for Johnny:

Do you think, Johnny, that it is better to use microtonal FINGERINGS
rather than try to bend as much as a semitone up and down.... That's
a *lot*, no?? 100 cents...!

It seems the inclusion of all the fingering charts in your PITCH
series would testify to this...

However, Bob says it can all be done with bending....

What do you think??

THANKS!!!!

_______ ________ _________
Joseph Pehrson

In a message dated 8/13/01 9:37:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jpehrson@rcn.com
writes:

> --- In tuning@y..., BobWendell@t... wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_26796.html#26899
>
> > Hi, Neal. I majored in violin, but grew up in bands playing trumpet
> > and French horn. Any wind player with a good ear can play with ANY
> > intonation and sound good if his ear is sensitive enough. You can
> > bend the tone almost a full semitone on most wind instruments, and
> > the amount of bending for most alternative tunings is way inside
> > that ballpark! A sax is one of the most flexible of the winds in
> this regard, which in addition to its "boss" timbre makes it so great
> for jazz!
> >
>
> Bob... this is truly encouraging news, since I have been avoiding
> writing microtonality for woodwinds because I didn't think they could
> play it precisely.
>
And this is disappointing to me since Joseph has had every opportunity to see
wind players on all instruments play in many different tunings, regularly, on
AFMM concerts.

> I know my friend Johnny Reinhard says it can be done, but Johnny
> frequently says I don't listen to him... so this is probably another
> instance of it! :)
>

Now, Joseph is correct.

> Why, though, does Lou Harrison, let's say in his piano concerto,
> avoid all woodwinds and brass except for the trombone?? Just curious.
>
Because Lou is a pioneer in tuning and did not become comfortable with the
woodwinds. When I asked him about a possible wind quintet, he told me he
felt that no matter how much the winds rehearsed together, they always
sounded like they just met because of their diverse timbres.

The pioneers did not realize. Haba went and built a quartertone clarinet
because he hadn't met Harold Seletsky or Michiyo Suzuki. Wyschnegradsky
never wrote for bassoon, though I play his music where cellists fear to
tread. Because Lou didn't realize certainly things about instruments and
their abilities to play microtonally, his "Simfony in Free Style" remained
unperformed until last year.

> And, I have a question for Johnny:
>
> Do you think, Johnny, that it is better to use microtonal FINGERINGS
> rather than try to bend as much as a semitone up and down.... That's
> a *lot*, no?? 100 cents...!
>
Yes, let the fingers do the work and keep embouchure for expression.

> It seems the inclusion of all the fingering charts in your PITCH
> series would testify to this...
>

It certainly does allude to it.

> However, Bob says it can all be done with bending....
>

Bending implies moving from a set position to another set position. Finding
a fingering and developing a full "resonance pocket" for said pitch is no
different from any of the conventional notes.

> What do you think??
>
> THANKS!!!!
>
> _______ ________ _________
> Joseph Pehrson
>

I think that you and Lou have been selling yourselves short regarding wind
instruments playing successfully with microtones.

Best, Johnny Reinhard

--- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:

/tuning/topicId_26796.html#26964

>
> I think that you and Lou have been selling yourselves short
regarding wind instruments playing successfully with microtones.
>
> Best, Johnny Reinhard

Hi Johnny...

Actually, this whole question came up because Bob Wendell suggested
using bending for microtones with woodwinds.

Bob, Johnny Reinhard clearly prefers alternate fingerings to bending
for woodwinds...

Does that jive with *your* view??

________ _______ _________
Joseph Pehrson

At 01:01 PM 8/9/01 -0400, Seth wrote:
>on 8/9/01 11:10 AM, tuning@yahoogroups.com at tuning@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>
>
> > From: "Neil Haverstick" <STICK@USWEST.NET>
> > Subject: Two tunings at once
> >
> > I jammed with a sax player a few years ago; I played 19 tone guitar,
> > he played 12 tone sax...sounded great. We were playing pretty free, so
> > that helped. I think using different tunings to play together has
> > potential, if it's done with the right spirit. If it sounds good, then
> > nothing else matters.
>
>I love the juxtaposition of 12-tET instruments such as piano, guitar,
>mandolins, etc with 5 and 7 limit vocals, fiddles, bagpipes and fretless
>banjos found in Celtic, Appalachian, blues and other folk styles. To me, it
>really makes it, almost more than if everything was tuned the same.
>
> > I've always wondered, in this vein, what it
> > sounded like when Bach jammed with lutenist Sylvius Weiss...Weiss was
> > probably using a 12 eq lute; was Bach tuned to Well Temp, or did he
> > maybe retune to match Weiss? Or, did anybody worry about it? We'll
> > probably never know...Hstick
>
>If I could go back in time, there's some jams I'd love to have heard.

That leads right into a question I have been wanting to ask. I suspect that this is probably to be found in the archives, but I don't know what search-terms to use. Here is the question:

Most if not all of the discussions that I have read on the issue of keyboard temperaments have been framed in the "vertical" context, the assumption being that an approximation to pure intervals for some subset of key signatures is the goal. Recently, I have been wondering whether consonance between a keyboard playing chordal accompaniment to a horizontal JI or modal melody could also have been a motivation in some cases? And even more interesting, whether a keyboard temp would have been "tweaked" to accommodate a mixture of vertical and horizontal contexts on the keyboard itself. I seem to hear some potential for this in early JSB, for example the Tocattas.

JB

Try "polymicrotonal."

Johnny Reinhard

At 08:30 PM 8/13/01 -0400, Johnny wrote:

>Try "polymicrotonal."

Well, I checked that out, and although interesting, does not address historical practice, which is what I am curious about. So if I were to rephrase my question, I would ask "Did the old guys ever temper keyboards in a polymicrotonal context, or does that even make sense with only 12 notes?" Typically I gather, keyboard chordal accompaniments to microtonal melodies tend to stick to the notes that exist in common. It would seem that in some case, there would be some left over. That would appear to allow some latitude. Also, latitude exists in the details of how the tunings of the notes that are normally used in the accompaniment are tempered. Another question is whether temperaments were ever set melodically? It is purported that Handel did it that way, and in fact it may have been common. I don't see this sort of thing discussed in the usual sources regarding keyboard temps. So there are several question intertwined, involving practical techniques of setting a temp (Was it always done harmonically?), the theoretical aspects (Was the goal of keyboard tempering always defined in a vertical context?) and musical (Were keyboard temperaments ever set up for a melodic context rather than harmonic?).

JB

JB