Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Byzantine and Serb Church Music

One interesting microtonal experience which I had last night was a concert
of Medieval Greek -- i.e. Byzantine -- and Serb Orthodox church music, which
were sung by monks from monasteries from Mount Athos in Greece and a
monastery in Serbia. It was a really unforgetable experience, since it was a
superb performance of extremely pleasantly exotic music. Though it was
generally simple in "construction" -- the choirs being divided into two
voices, with one voice singing the drone and the other singing the melody --
it was actually a very rich sounding consort, since the melodic voice
produced not only a variety of melodic figures, mostly in minor (including
Dorian and Phrygian) modes, but also an assortment of interesting microtonal
and alternate termperament results, including some distinct "smaller than
semitone" intervals and other sonorities sounding "out of tune" to the
untuned ear. The Byzantine music was rather "classical" and more ascetic,
having more limitations to distinctly set modes (though the microtonal and
"out-of-tune" singing could be very well heard here too!), while the Serb
singing, which is actually supposed to be a branch of the Byzantine music
(i.e. generally speaking, Byzantine music in Serbia) was actually much more
rich harmonically and melodically, being almost intoxicating in its
emotional effect on the audience, utilizing at different times just about
all the notes of the chromatic spectrum and often having a distinctly Middle
Eastern flavor - though some specialists told me that this was not Turkish
influence, but the original singing in the area - what we now consider as
"Eastern music" was the inherent original music in Greece and the Balkans
(if not in even more Western areas of Europe). The amazing thing, is that
it's totally different from Russian or Ukrainian church music, whether of
the old or new type. Bulgarian music is supposed to sound like this too,
though, unfortunately, I haven't heard any of it yet.
After the concert, I talked to some of the chorus members and specialists in
this music, staying around after the concert, and they told me that in this
tradition the singers actually sing from the Medieval neumes (which means
that I can't read it) and that the written music is quite diatonic (if there
are chromaticisms notated, they are of the ordinary type), while the
microtonalisms and alternate temperation is achieved by improvisational
means, due to the inherent singing tradition, passed manually, so they don't
have -23 or +37 or -49 notated in the scores (as I naively hoped that they
would). I wonder if anyone here would know what kind of temperaments do
singers of the area use and whether this improvisational element with adding
of microtonal intervals is used much among different traditions of folk or
religious singing, whether in Europe or Asia or around the world. This is
something which crossed my mind after the concert.

🔗monz <joemonz@yahoo.com>

> From: Ant <ant@df.ru>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 1:16 AM
> Subject: [tuning] Byzantine and Serb Church Music
>
>
> After the concert, I talked to some of the chorus members and specialists
in
> this music, staying around after the concert, and they told me that in
this
> tradition the singers actually sing from the Medieval neumes (which means
> that I can't read it) and that the written music is quite diatonic (if
there
> are chromaticisms notated, they are of the ordinary type), while the
> microtonalisms and alternate temperation is achieved by improvisational
> means, due to the inherent singing tradition, passed manually, so they
don't
> have -23 or +37 or -49 notated in the scores (as I naively hoped that they
> would). I wonder if anyone here would know what kind of temperaments do
> singers of the area use and whether this improvisational element with
adding
> of microtonal intervals is used much among different traditions of folk or
> religious singing, whether in Europe or Asia or around the world. This is
> something which crossed my mind after the concert.

Hi Anton,

I just wrote a post here about two weeks ago concerning my attendance
of a vespers service in a Greek Orthodox church, in which George Bilalis
and a collegue (I can never remember his name... it's Greek) chanted
Byzantine chants.

George is trying to preserve the microtonality of the Byzantine chant
in America, where it is almost gone. He told me that the monks adopted
72-EDO (= 72-tone equal-temperament) as their measurment standard
over 100 years ago, and that is what they use today. They speak in
terms of tetrachords divided into intervals measured in 72-EDO degrees.

For example, a typical 5-limit diatonic tetrachord would be called
"12, 11, and 5", giving exact 72-EDO cents-values of 0, 200, 383&1/3,
and 500, or approximately the ratios 1/1, 9/8, 5/4, 4/3.

Another example: "12, 4, 14" gives 72-EDO cents-values of 0, 200,
267&2/3, 500, or approximately 1/1, 9/8, 7/6, 4/3.

George and his colleague also read from neumes. I got a copy
of two pages and will scan it when I get a chance.

Hmmm.... I was sure I had sent a post to one or more of the tuning lists
about this, but I've just checked all the ones I belong to and there are
none.
I must have sent that privately. If whoever has it wants to post it, go
ahead.

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

_________________________________________________________
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🔗Ed Borasky <znmeb@aracnet.com>

--- In tuning@y..., "monz" <joemonz@y...> wrote:
> George is trying to preserve the microtonality of the Byzantine
chant
> in America, where it is almost gone. He told me that the monks
adopted
> 72-EDO (= 72-tone equal-temperament) as their measurment standard
> over 100 years ago, and that is what they use today. They speak in
> terms of tetrachords divided into intervals measured in 72-EDO
degrees.
>
> For example, a typical 5-limit diatonic tetrachord would be called
> "12, 11, and 5", giving exact 72-EDO cents-values of 0, 200,
383&1/3,
> and 500, or approximately the ratios 1/1, 9/8, 5/4, 4/3.
>
> Another example: "12, 4, 14" gives 72-EDO cents-values of 0, 200,
> 267&2/3, 500, or approximately 1/1, 9/8, 7/6, 4/3.
>
> George and his colleague also read from neumes. I got a copy
> of two pages and will scan it when I get a chance.

Interesting ... I guess I need to re-read that section of Xenakis. He
goes on a mini-rant about the disappearance of such cultural entities
himself. What is the relationship, if any, between 72-EDO and
Aristoxenus? (I don't have my copy of "Divisions of the Tetrachord"
handy). I ordered some Byzantine CDs from Amazon (they only had a few
in stock -- most are listed as hard to get) plus some John Tavener to
get an idea what this sort of music sounds like. As I think I
mentioned the other day, Volume 2 of "The New Oxford History of
Music" has a rather extensive treatment of Byzantine music, including
some information on the neumes. They actually represent *intervals*
rather than absolute pitches IIRC.

As an aside, at one point in my life (age 13, of course :-) I learned
the "traditional" Ashkenazic cantillation for the Haftorah.
The "melody" is written over the Hebrew syllables in special symbols,
each of which translates into roughly what we'd call in Western music
a "motif" -- a group of two, three or four notes. About all I
remember is a few of the motifs and the fact that as a whole, the
melody was in what we would call a minor key.

The motifs were actually written out in conventional Western music
notation in some of the prayer books, and I was able to play them on
the flute and thus get the melodies down. You can probably find the
same information in a good Jewish bookstore today. I didn't know
about microtonality back in those days, and of course, an American
band flute is going to give you 12-TET pitches (at least, it's
*supposed* to) so I probably missed the opportunity to sing
microtonally at my Bar Mitzvah. :-) In those days, I could carry a
tune, though. :-)

I have no idea how far back this kind of music goes. I always assumed
it was no older than, say, the Middle Ages, when the Ashkenazim
became a recognizable and distinct culture in Germany. I'm pretty
sure the Sephardic traditions are different; I know their *secular*
music is much different from Ashkenazic secular music.
--
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky, Chief Scientist, Borasky Research
http://www.borasky-research.net http://www.aracnet.com/~znmeb
mailto:znmeb@borasky-research.com mailto:znmeb@aracnet.com

Q: How do you get an elephant out of a theatre?
A: You can't. It's in their blood.

🔗monz <joemonz@yahoo.com>

> From: Ed Borasky <znmeb@aracnet.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> SentTuesday, July 03, 2001 8:59 PM
> Subject: [tuning] Re: Byzantine and Serb Church Music
>
>
> ... What is the relationship, if any, between 72-EDO and
> Aristoxenus? (I don't have my copy of "Divisions of the Tetrachord"
> handy).

My Dictionary entry on "moria" should clear this up for you, Ed:
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/dict/moria.htm

And for much more on Aristoxenus (especially *my* interpretation
of the very slippery mathematics of his theory), see:
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/aristoxenus/318tet.htm

Please note that this page is still unfinished, and the latter
half of it is quite haphazard.

But do a search for the words "his lecture", and see the Greek
and parallel English translation I made (in a table) just after
those words.

Also, check out the big diagram I made near the end of the page,
showing my interpretation of all of his basic divisions.

> They [the neumes] actually represent *intervals* rather than
> absolute pitches IIRC.

That sure sounds right to me. I'm quite certain that the
neumes in use in Western Europe represented intervals too,
at first.

The ancient Greek theory was all based on intervallic
divisions of tetrachords, and this theory was promulgated
quite enthusastically by the medieval Franks when they
rediscovered (and mistinterpreted) it.

>
> I have no idea how far back this kind of music goes. I always assumed
> it was no older than, say, the Middle Ages, when the Ashkenazim
> became a recognizable and distinct culture in Germany. I'm pretty
> sure the Sephardic traditions are different; I know their *secular*
> music is much different from Ashkenazic secular music.

Ed, I'd put my money on the speculation that the Byzantine music
is based mostly on the ancient Greek tradition, and *that* in turn
was based on Babylonian, which was based on Sumerian, which is
where the buck stops.

My deep research into the Sumerians last summer has convinced
me that just about everything in our "modern" civilization
(excepting only specific instances of technological progress)
originated with them. For a glimpse of this perspective,
please see any of Noah Kramer's books.

It seems to me that the Babylonians and then the Greeks were
particularly perceptive of the valuable contributions the
Sumerians made to humankind, and were keen to preserve them.
So I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone someday found
"proof" that Byzantine chant is very similar to Sumerian music.

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

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🔗Ed Borasky <znmeb@aracnet.com>

Well, with my copy of Iannis Xenakis' _Formalized Music_ (Pendragon
Revised Edition, Pendragon Press, 1992) at hand, let me summarize
what Xenakis has to say on the subject. The whole discussion runs
from pages 183 - 194; I can't possibly post the whole thing, but I've
extracted the highlight:

"Structure of Ancient Music"

"I believe we can go further and affirm that ancient music, at least
up to the first centuries of Christianity, was not based at all on
scales and modes related to the octave, but on tetrachords and
_systems_."

"This is what the Greeks used in their music: a hierarchic structure
that proceeded by successive 'nesting,' and by intersections from the
particular to the general; we can trace its main outline if we follow
the writings of Aristoxenos:"

"A. The _primary order_ consists of the tone and its subdivisions."

"B. The _secondary order_ consists of the tetrachord." Xenakis then
goes on to describe tetrachords, which I'm sure are familiar to most
of you.

"C. The _tertiary order_, or _system_, is essentially a combination
of the elements of the first two -- tones and tetrachords either
conjuncted or separated by a tone."

"D. The _quaternary order_ consists of the tropes, the keys, or the
modes, which were probably just particularizations of the systems,
derived by means of cadential, melodic, dominant, registral, and
other formulae, as in Byzantine music, ragas, etc.

"These orders account for the outside-time structure of Hellenic
music."

Xenakis then goes on to describe arithmetic versus geometric
proportion, another subject I'm sure is familiar enough. "Over the
centuries the two languages -- arithmetic (operating by addition) and
geometric (derived from the ratios of string lengths, and operating
by multiplication) -- have always intermingled and interpenetrated so
as to create much useless confusion in the reckoning of intervals and
consonances, and consequently in theories." Then he gives a
description of Byzantine music:

"Byzantine music amalgamates the two means of calculation, the
Pythagorean and the Aristoxenean, the multiplicative and the
additive. ... the musical architecture is hierarchical and 'nested'
as in Aristoxenos, as follows:"

"A.`The _primary order_ is based on the three tones 9/8, 10/9, 16/15,
a supermajor tone 7/6, the trihemitone 6/5, another major tone 15/14,
the semitone or leima 256/243, the apotome of the minor tone 135/128,
and finally the comma 81/80. This complexity results from the mixture
of the two means of calculation.

"B. The _secondary order_ consists of tetrachords, as defined in
Aristoxenos, and similarly the pentachords and the octochords. The
tetrachords are divided into three genera:

"1. Diatonic ...
"2. Chromatic ...
"3. Enharmonic ...

"We can see a phenomenon of absorption of the ancient enharmonic by
the diatonic. This must have taken place during the first centuries
of Christianity, as part of the Church fathers' struggle against
paganism and certain of its manifestations in the arts."

"C. The _tertiary order_ consists of the scales constructed with the
help of systems having the same ancient rules of consonance,
dissonance and assonance (paraphonia). In Byzantine music the
principle of interation and juxtaposition of the system leads very
clearly to scales, a development that is still fairly obscure in
Aristoxenos and his successors, except for Ptolemy." Xenakis then
describes numerous scales.

"D. The _quaternary order_ consists of the tropes or echoi
(ichi). ... Thus we have succintly expounded our analysis of the
outside-time structure of Byzantine music."

Xenakis goes on to describe the temporal structure of Byzantine
music, then goes into more philosophical territory, which is quite
remarkably similar to comments of Harry Partch, although Partch is
much easier to read. It was actually this last part which irrevocably
linked Xenakis and Partch in my mind. Somehow focusing on ancient
Greek music led these two composers to similar philosophies, but to
vastly different musical styles.

I don't really think of Xenakis as a microtonal composer in the same
sense as Partch, Ben Johnston and other familiar name. I've got a
fair amount of Xenakis and it is all over the map. Sometimes two
seeds can fall great distances away from the same tree :-).
--
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky, Chief Scientist, Borasky Research
http://www.borasky-research.net http://www.aracnet.com/~znmeb
mailto:znmeb@borasky-research.com mailto:znmeb@aracnet.com

Q: How do you get an elephant out of a theatre?
A: You can't. It's in their blood.

🔗Ed Borasky <znmeb@aracnet.com>

--- In tuning@y..., "Ed Borasky" <znmeb@a...> wrote:
> Then he (Xenakis) gives a
> description of Byzantine music:
>
> "Byzantine music amalgamates the two means of calculation, the
> Pythagorean and the Aristoxenean, the multiplicative and the
> additive. ... the musical architecture is hierarchical and 'nested'
> as in Aristoxenos, as follows:"
>
> "A.`The _primary order_ is based on the three tones 9/8, 10/9,
16/15,
> a supermajor tone 7/6, the trihemitone 6/5, another major tone
15/14,
> the semitone or leima 256/243, the apotome of the minor tone
135/128,
> and finally the comma 81/80. This complexity results from the
mixture
> of the two means of calculation.

Looking again at this passage, it seems the Byzantine music uses 7
limit (primes) or 9 limit (odd numbers). Does this correspond with
what the original poster in this thread heard in the concert? Did it
indeed sound like these intervals were present?
--
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky, Chief Scientist, Borasky Research
http://www.borasky-research.net http://www.aracnet.com/~znmeb
mailto:znmeb@b... mailto:znmeb@a...

Q: How do you tell when a pineapple is ready to eat?
A: It picks up its knife and fork.

🔗monz <joemonz@yahoo.com>

> From: Ed Borasky <znmeb@aracnet.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 6:28 AM
> Subject: [tuning] Re: Byzantine and Serb Church Music
>
>
> --- In tuning@y..., "Ed Borasky" <znmeb@a...> wrote:
> > Then he (Xenakis) gives a
> > description of Byzantine music:
> >
> > "Byzantine music amalgamates the two means of calculation, the
> > Pythagorean and the Aristoxenean, the multiplicative and the
> > additive. ... the musical architecture is hierarchical and 'nested'
> > as in Aristoxenos, as follows:"
> >
> > "A.`The _primary order_ is based on the three tones 9/8, 10/9,
> > 16/15, a supermajor tone 7/6, the trihemitone 6/5, another major
> > tone 15/14, the semitone or leima 256/243, the apotome of the
> > minor tone 135/128, and finally the comma 81/80. This complexity
> > results from the mixture of the two means of calculation.
>
> Looking again at this passage, it seems the Byzantine music uses 7
> limit (primes) or 9 limit (odd numbers). Does this correspond with
> what the original poster in this thread heard in the concert? Did it
> indeed sound like these intervals were present?

Hi Ed,

Hope you don't mind me jumping in here. The vespers service that
I heard chanted by George Bilalis *definitely* had lots of 11-limit
ratios in it! (or at least something closely resembling them).

I heard plenty of melodic "1/3-tones" (implying 7-limit ratios),
but there was a *very* distinct use of 11:8 quite often in the melodies.

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

_________________________________________________________
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🔗jpehrson@rcn.com

🔗Seth Austen <klezmusic@earthlink.net>

on 7/4/01 5:12 AM, tuning@yahoogroups.com at tuning@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> As an aside, at one point in my life (age 13, of course :-) I learned
> the "traditional" Ashkenazic cantillation for the Haftorah.
> The "melody" is written over the Hebrew syllables in special symbols,
> each of which translates into roughly what we'd call in Western music
> a "motif" -- a group of two, three or four notes. About all I

> I have no idea how far back this kind of music goes. I always assumed
> it was no older than, say, the Middle Ages, when the Ashkenazim
> became a recognizable and distinct culture in Germany. I'm pretty
> sure the Sephardic traditions are different; I know their *secular*
> music is much different from Ashkenazic secular music.

I believe that the use of symbols over the syllables in the Torah for the
melody goes back thousands of years, both in the Askenazic and Sephardic
traditions. Steve Reichs' Telhim was inspired by this.

Although there are differences in the instrumentation and rythmic styles of
eastern European and middle eastern Jewish folk or secular music, the
melodic contours share a lot of similarities. Of course they both use the
"freygish" mode (1, 2b, 3, 4, 5, 6b, 7) as the primary scale.

Seth

--
Seth Austen

http://www.sethausten.com
emails: seth@sethausten.com
klezmusic@earthlink.net

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

🔗Seth Austen <klezmusic@earthlink.net>

🔗Ed Borasky <znmeb@aracnet.com>

--- In tuning@y..., "monz" <joemonz@y...> wrote:

> > Looking again at this passage, it seems the Byzantine music uses
7
> > limit (primes) or 9 limit (odd numbers). Does this correspond
with
> > what the original poster in this thread heard in the concert? Did
it
> > indeed sound like these intervals were present?
>
>
> Hi Ed,
>
> Hope you don't mind me jumping in here. The vespers service that
> I heard chanted by George Bilalis *definitely* had lots of 11-limit
> ratios in it! (or at least something closely resembling them).
>
> I heard plenty of melodic "1/3-tones" (implying 7-limit ratios),
> but there was a *very* distinct use of 11:8 quite often in the
melodies.

I'm not sure Xenakis is *the* authority on the structure of Byzantine
music. He definitely references more scholarly books. But his
opinion, from whatever sources, was that Byzantine music evolved from
the tetrachords and systems of Aristoxenos, with some elements like
scales taken from later writers such as Ptolemy. Xenakis claims that
Aristoxenos didn't use the concept of "scale", as a matter of fact.
So if Aristoxenos used 11-limit, it's probably in Byzantine music.
And my ear certainly isn't that well-trained yet; when I listen to
the Byzantine music CDs I ordered, I'll try to develop an ear for the
intervals, but it's more likely that I'll have to generate some
tetrachords on a computer to be able to hear them.
--
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky, Chief Scientist, Borasky Research
http://www.borasky-research.net http://www.aracnet.com/~znmeb
mailto:znmeb@borasky-research.com mailto:znmeb@aracnet.com

Q: How do you tell when a pineapple is ready to eat?
A: It picks up its knife and fork.

🔗monz <joemonz@yahoo.com>

> From: Ed Borasky <znmeb@aracnet.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 8:02 PM
> Subject: [tuning] Re: Byzantine and Serb Church Music
>
>
> I'm not sure Xenakis is *the* authority on the structure of Byzantine
> music. He definitely references more scholarly books. But his
> opinion, from whatever sources, was that Byzantine music evolved from
> the tetrachords and systems of Aristoxenos, with some elements like
> scales taken from later writers such as Ptolemy.

In fact Ptolemy was documenting and "rationalizing" (literally)
Aristoxenos's work (exactly as I have done, but with different
ratios). Audibly, they're pretty much the same.

> Xenakis claims that Aristoxenos didn't use the concept of "scale",
> as a matter of fact.

That's right, it's all tetrachords. Aristoxenos only introduces
"octaves" in connection with a description of how 7-tone scales
made from 2 tetrachords can be permutated thru modal rotations.

> So if Aristoxenos used 11-limit, it's probably in Byzantine music.
> And my ear certainly isn't that well-trained yet; when I listen to
> the Byzantine music CDs I ordered, I'll try to develop an ear for the
> intervals, but it's more likely that I'll have to generate some
> tetrachords on a computer to be able to hear them.

Everything I heard George Bilalis chant sounded like it was based
on ancient-Greek-style tetrachords to me. It did indeed sound
quite "oriental", but so do a lot of ancient Greek modes.
I reiterate: I think this stuff all stems from the Sumerians.
Try this out if you haven't seen it yet:
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/sumerian/sumeriantuning.htm

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

🔗monz <joemonz@yahoo.com>

> From: monz <joemonz@yahoo.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 11:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Byzantine and Serb Church Music
>
>
>
> > From: Ed Borasky <znmeb@aracnet.com>
> >
> > So if Aristoxenos used 11-limit, it's probably in Byzantine music.
> > And my ear certainly isn't that well-trained yet; when I listen to
> > the Byzantine music CDs I ordered, I'll try to develop an ear for the
> > intervals, but it's more likely that I'll have to generate some
> > tetrachords on a computer to be able to hear them.
>
>
> Everything I heard George Bilalis chant sounded like it was based
> on ancient-Greek-style tetrachords to me. It did indeed sound
> quite "oriental", but so do a lot of ancient Greek modes.
> I reiterate: I think this stuff all stems from the Sumerians.
> Try this out if you haven't seen it yet:
> http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/sumerian/sumeriantuning.htm

I meant to add that 11 featured prominently as a factor in ratios
of many ancient Greek tetrachord tunings. Ptolemy's "equable (or
smooth) diatonic" 12:11:10:9 comes immediately to mind, and
believe me, is a *very* distinctive sound.

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

_________________________________________________________
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🔗George Zelenz <ploo@mindspring.com>

🔗Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@which.net>

🔗monz <joemonz@yahoo.com>

> From: Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@which.net>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2001 12:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Byzantine and Serb Church Music
>

>
> Would I be somewhere near the truth in surmising that
> the 11 in the early tetrachords came less from the
> audible effect of 11 than from the mathematical process
> of splitting 12 and 10?

Well... yes and no.

I've begun preparing a long explanatory post about this,
but have to go now, so I'll finish and send it when get
back online later today. Just didn't want to leave you
hanging, because you [Alison, in UK] may be in bed asleep
by the time I post it. If that's the case, look for it
tomorrow AM.

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

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🔗Ant <ant@df.ru>

Dear Joe Monz and everybody who answered my message.

It happened that I had to go out of town for a few days after I posted my
previous message, so I couldn't respond immediately, but I appreciate the
response to it. I did suspect that monophonic chant singing, or its
counterpart with the added pedal-point drone, could be a wealth of alternate
tunings, so it turned out that I was not mistaken. It was especially
interesting to read about the Sephardic Jewish chants and the alternate
tunings employed there - and it turned out that the Byzantine chant is
something to be sung in non-12-equal temperament. I forgot who was it of the
early 20th century microtonalists who said that "those people who accuse us
of breaking completely with tradition and coming up with something
completely radical and anti-musical are wrong, since prior to the advent of
polyphony oin the 10th century, music was in its essence "microtonal" since
it was free to use a much greater assortment of "alternate tunings" and
unstandared intervals and polyphony was what caused a certain
"standardization" of temperaments.

Of course, as we know, the Ancient Greeks had chromaticism and microtonality
(or "enharmonicism") as an inherent part of their musical language, as is
manifested in the few surviving fragments, preserved to date and deciphered
(and actually available on CD, at least in Europe, and hopefully in the USA
too). It was the early Medieval chants (Ambrosian and Gregorian) which did
away with chromaticism and enharmonicism (at least in theory, though it
remained in practice, as we have just determined) and stuck to pure
diatonicism. So, as we see, history moves in cycles.

Anton Rovner

🔗Mark Karahalis <markkarahalis@hotmail.com>

Hi Anton,

I am currently taking a class in byzantine music at the greek Orthodox seminary
in Brookline ma. My problem is in finding a way to generate the pitches exactly
for the eight church modes. They are based on a seventy two tone system. An
equal tempered half step in western european tuning is a distance of 6 tones. We
frequently deal in pitches of 4 or less. I am looking for a way to reproduce
these electronically in order to devellop pitch acuracy. Possibly you could lead
me in the right direction?? Thank You, Mark Karahalis

>From: "Ant">Reply-To: tuning@yahoogroups.com>To:>Subject: [tuning] Byzantine
and Serb Church Music>Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 19:19:44 +0400>>Dear Joe Monz and
everybody who answered my message.>>It happened that I had to go out of town for
a few days after I posted my>previous message, so I couldn't respond
immediately, but I appreciate the>response to it. I did suspect that monophonic
chant singing, or its>counterpart with the added pedal-point drone, could be a
wealth of alternate>tunings, so it turned out that I was not mistaken. It was
especially>interesting to read about the Sephardic Jewish chants and the
alternate>tunings employed there - and it turned out that the Byzantine chant is
>something to be sung in non-12-equal temperament. I forgot who was it of the
>early 20th century microtonalists who said that "those people who accuse us>of
breaking completely with tradition and coming up with something>completely
radical and anti-musical are wrong, since prior to the advent of>polyphony oin
the 10th century, music was in its essence "microtonal" since>it was free to use
a much greater assortment of "alternate tunings" and>unstandared intervals and
polyphony was what caused a certain>"standardization" of temperaments.>>Of
course, as we know, the Ancient Greeks had chromaticism and microtonality>(or
"enharmonicism") as an inherent part of their musical language, as is>manifested
in the few surviving fragments, preserved to date and deciphered>(and actually
available on CD, at least in Europe, and hopefully in the USA>too). It was the
early Medieval chants (Ambrosian and Gregorian) which did>away with chromaticism
and enharmonicism (at least in theory, though it>remained in practice, as we
have just determined) and stuck to pure>diatonicism. So, as we see, history
moves in cycles.>>Anton Rovner>

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🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

--- In tuning@y..., "Mark Karahalis" <markkarahalis@h...> wrote:
>
>I am currently taking a class in byzantine music at the greek
>Orthodox seminary in Brookline ma.

Hi Mark! I live across the river, in Somerville.

>My problem is in finding a way to generate the pitches exactly for
>the eight church modes. They are based on a seventy two tone system.
>An equal tempered half step in western european tuning is a distance
>of 6 tones. We frequently deal in pitches of 4 or less. I am looking
>for a way to reproduce these electronically in order to devellop
>pitch acuracy. Possibly you could lead me in the right direction??
>Thank You, Mark Karahalis

You are very fortunate because right in Boston, at New England
Conservatory, Joe Maneri leads a class in 72-tone-equal-temperament
ear-training. The class is free and open to the public. They
sometimes make use of a special keyboard with 72 tones per octave,
not really useful for making music, but at least it gives you the
correct pitches. Various composers associated with Joe Maneri and
NEC, as well as Ezra Sims in Cambridge and his associated Dinosaur
Annex, make Boston a 72-tET town. I happen to have become very
interested in it myself for reasons we've discussed amply here over
the last few months.

My other recommendation, if you have a soundcard on your computer,
would be to obtain Robert Walker's Fractal Tune Smithy, with which I
understand it is easy to set up various ear-training exercises in any
tuning you like.

Lots of interest in 72 coming from various directions these days!
Please stay in touch.

-Paul