my pitch reproduction abilities

I just ran a test on my pitch reproduction abilities. I imagined a pitch
in my head then played it on my fretless acoustic bass guitar, recording
it with Cool Edit Pro. I then listened to the recording, and recorded
seven more of the same pitch, each time putting down the bass so that I
had to find the note anew. I then extracted the pitch, averaging from
the peak volume to where the level dropped to 20% of the max in each
case. Here are the results in Hz. The first frequency listed is the
reference:

231.57
231.81
231.29
232.72
231.70
231.22
231.84
232.54

most of them are within 2-3 cents of the reference pitch. Not a
statistically significant sample, and not in a musical context, but
probably representative of my abilities. I am sure some list members can
do even better ;-)

--
John Starrett
"We have nothing to fear but the scary stuff."
http:\www-math.cudenver.edu/~jstarret/microtone.html

--- In tuning@y..., John Starrett <jstarret@c...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_24982.html#24982

Thank you for doing this, John.... This is very interesting.

So, if you're finding that your pitch discrimination is around 3
cents and 72-tET deviates from just intonation by an "error" of
around 3 cents, perhaps that is why Ezra Sims says he can tell no
difference between Just Intonation and 72-tET as far as his music is
concerned.

That's the correct quote, right?? Does anybody have that quote
handy??

Thanks!

__________ _______ ______
Joseph Pehrson

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <jpehrson@rcn.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 7:02 PM
> Subject: [tuning] Re: my pitch reproduction abilities
>

> --- In tuning@y..., John Starrett <jstarret@c...> wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_24982.html#24982
>
> Thank you for doing this, John.... This is very interesting.
>
> So, if you're finding that your pitch discrimination is around 3
> cents and 72-tET deviates from just intonation by an "error" of
> around 3 cents, perhaps that is why Ezra Sims says he can tell no
> difference between Just Intonation and 72-tET as far as his music is
> concerned.

Hi Joe. I don't recall if Ezra ever wrote that in print anywhere
(I think he did, but don't remember). I got it directly from him,
in a private letter he wrote me.

That's it in its essentials, but I wouldn't reproduce the actual
quote without his permission. He was making a point to me that
it really doesn't concern him whether the performers are thinking
in terms of 72-EDO or 37-limit JI, and that therefore he also
really isn't much concerned with how his music is analyzed in
these terms. It works fine either way to his ears, and, I suspect,
nearly everyone else's too. (except maybe Johnny's?... :) )

The letter was mainly in response to what I wrote about his work
in my book... I sent Sims an early draft several years ago.

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

_________________________________________________________
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Here's an experiment you can attempt. I ask, can you hear to difference
between an equal tempered perfect fifth of 700 cents and a 701.955etc. 3/2
perfect fifth.

If the answer is yes, we go on. Can you distinguish between the 2 perfect
fifths well enough that you can sing them melodically? If you can sing them
in alternation, can you retain each of the different perfect fifths, now less
than 2 cents apart?

If the answer is yes, and you can alternate between the 700 cents pitch and
the 701.955etc. cents of the "even more" perfect fifth, can you sing the note
in their middle? If you can ascend with the added logarithmic middle of the
"less than 2 cents" schisma, you would be moving by cent.

I just discussed this with Dave Eggar who agreed, though he had never thought
about it before. Skip LaPlante was hear, and heard, but he could distinguish
what I heard as ascending. Jon Catler announced 2-3 cents distinguishing
ability on New Sounds last night. But he's a guitarist. Maybe a wind
specialist has an advantage here.

Best, Johnny Reinhard

--- In tuning@y..., jpehrson@r... wrote:
<snip>
> So, if you're finding that your pitch discrimination is around 3
> cents and 72-tET deviates from just intonation by an "error" of
> around 3 cents, perhaps that is why Ezra Sims says he can tell no
> difference between Just Intonation and 72-tET as far as his music is
> concerned.
<snip>
> Joseph Pehrson

Actually, my pitch _discrimination_ is better than that, in that I can
discriminate about a cent difference, which I suspect most musicians
can. An easy way to test this is to use this nice java applet by
Pierre Lewis:
http://pages.globetrotter.net/roule/accord.htm
Set it on repeat, choose a note name and watch the cents change as you
change tunings.

The experiment I did with the bass guitar was just to see how well I
could reproduce a pitch on my main instrument. I tried singing too,
but my pitch reproduction was nowhere near as good.

John Starrett

--- In tuning@y..., jstarret@c... wrote:

>
> Actually, my pitch _discrimination_ is better than that, in that I
>can
> discriminate about a cent difference,
<snip>
> John Starrett

Nope, I was mistaken. I can hear about 2 cents difference in the range
of the applet http://pages.globetrotter.net/roule/accord.htm

John Starrett

--- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> Here's an experiment you can attempt. I ask, can you hear to
> difference between an equal tempered perfect fifth of 700 cents and
> a 701.955etc. 3/2 perfect fifth.

Yes

> If the answer is yes, we go on. Can you distinguish between the 2
> perfect
> fifths well enough that you can sing them melodically?

Unfortunately when I sing a note, there is about a 5 cent variation
over the life of the note. I can hear that the pitch is varying but I
am unable to do anything about it. When I try to sing the two pitches
in succession, the 3/2 is about 4 cents sharp (averaged) of the
tempered 5th. I am sure that practice would make the results improve.
When I sing a 3/2 over a 1/1 drone however, the average deviation of
my pitch is only about two cents.

<snip>
> Jon Catler announced 2-3 cents distinguishing
> ability on New Sounds last night. But he's a guitarist. Maybe a
> wind specialist has an advantage here.
>
> Best, Johnny Reinhard

I am sure the wind player has an advantage in singing.

John, thanks for trying this out. My thought for you is that you could hear
in your head something that your voice was apparently unwilling to honor.
With practice, your voice could learn to be steadier. Taking the voice to a
Tuner will show a moving arrow for just about everybody, because it is so
sensitive to fluctuation. The bassoon holds the arrow flat. But since
vocalizing Partch's music, the voice became more sensitive and can emanate
and dissolve. Sometimes tuners are sensitive to any of the harmonics IN the
tone. Keeping a darker vocal sound might aid in registering a steady pointer.

Of course, John, you know much of this, but I thought it would be of interest
to others.

Best, Johnny Reinhard

p.s. now it's to the studio to lay down the percussion of the Charles Ives
"Universe Symphony" with Tom Goldstein.

Hi John.

I tried contacting you off-list . . . maybe it didn't work.

Did you ever receive the MAD DUXX CDs I sent you, kindly mastered by
Jon Szanto?

You can reply off-list, unless you're announcing that you're adding
something off those discs to Tuning Punks (which would be great).

Thanks,
Paul

Hello all members, I, like all Indian musicians, tune my tanpura(s)
several times a week. Would you please recommend a tuner for my
requirements? -- 3 octaves [C3 to C6 or so], no chords involved, JI,
and, most importantly, resolution of 0.1 cent. Also, 110V and 230V
if possible.

I thank you all in advance, and regards,
Haresh.

Haresh,

please continue using your ears.

please.

Please.

Please.

Please.

Please.

GZ

Haresh BAKSHI wrote:

> Hello all members, I, like all Indian musicians, tune my tanpura(s)
> several times a week. Would you please recommend a tuner for my
> requirements? -- 3 octaves [C3 to C6 or so], no chords involved, JI,
> and, most importantly, resolution of 0.1 cent. Also, 110V and 230V
> if possible.
>
> I thank you all in advance, and regards,
> Haresh.
>
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I found a very good tuning devise on Computer. It is a real time Frequency
Analyser (share ware) for apple Macintosh. All You need is a microphone, a
running Computer and the knowledge of Your Frequencies, You play. Let´s say

C = 128 Hz, than are all Your C´s multiples of this frequencies (256 Hz,
512 Hz, 1024Hz...) Your JI 3/2 5ths are than:

128 x 3/2 = 192 Hz
256 x 3/2 = 384 Hz etc.

You can tune any Instrument in this frequencies and they are just!

Another Tuning device, I heard of are peterson - tuners (www.peterson.com)

greeings

Peter Imig