Re: [tuning] dim 7th & acceptance of 12-EDO (was: Re: Scala 2.0 tutorial)

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 1:39 PM
> Subject: [tuning] Re: Scala 2.0 tutorial
>

> Well, I think that's Monz's point . . . as more Romantic composers
> relied on the ability of the diminished seventh chord to resolve
> _equally convicingly_ to four different tonal centers, tunings that
> differed from 12-tET became less and less aesthetically appropriate.

Exactly. Thanks, Paul.

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

--- In tuning@y..., "monz" <joemonz@y...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_24614.html#24614

>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Paul Erlich <paul@s...>
> > To: <tuning@y...>
> > Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 1:39 PM
> > Subject: [tuning] Re: Scala 2.0 tutorial
> >
>
> > Well, I think that's Monz's point . . . as more Romantic
composers
> > relied on the ability of the diminished seventh chord to resolve
> > _equally convicingly_ to four different tonal centers, tunings
that
> > differed from 12-tET became less and less aesthetically
appropriate.
>
>
> Exactly. Thanks, Paul.
>
>

Oh! Thanks. However you're talking about a transition from
various "well temperaments" to 12-tET rather than a transition from
_meantone_ to 12-tET, correct?? Weren't the _well temperaments"
established by the time of Beethoven and the late _Classical Period_
composers, or do I have my history wrong? Was meantone still around?

Thanks!

_________ ________ _______
Joseph Pehrson

--- In tuning@y..., jpehrson@r... wrote:

> Oh! Thanks. However you're talking about a transition from
> various "well temperaments" to 12-tET rather than a transition from
> _meantone_ to 12-tET, correct??

On keyboards, yes, absolutely. However, in chamber music, keyboard continuo was passe by
1750, and meantone was still considered "correct intonation" in theory, well into the late 18th
century -- players being taught to intonate G# lower than Ab, etc. In practice, however,
enharmonic devices in composition would have necessitated some sort of "adaptive"
departures from meantone, or perhaps the teaching and rehearsal of "correct intonation" was
simply ignored in favor of some form of keyboard-like tuning when these pieces were actually
performed.

In the early 19th century, players are taught to intonate G# the same as Ab, or even a little
higher . . .

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 11:09 AM
> Subject: [tuning] dim 7th & acceptance of 12-EDO (was: Re: Scala 2.0
tutorial)
>

> --- In tuning@y..., jpehrson@r... wrote:
>
> > Oh! Thanks. However you're talking about a transition from
> > various "well temperaments" to 12-tET rather than a transition from
> > _meantone_ to 12-tET, correct??
>
> On keyboards, yes, absolutely. However, in chamber music,
> keyboard continuo was passe by 1750, and meantone was still
> considered "correct intonation" in theory, well into the
> late 18th century -- players being taught to intonate G#
> lower than Ab, etc. In practice, however, enharmonic devices
> in composition would have necessitated some sort of "adaptive"
> departures from meantone, or perhaps the teaching and rehearsal
> of "correct intonation" was simply ignored in favor of some
> form of keyboard-like tuning when these pieces were actually
> performed.
>
> In the early 19th century, players are taught to intonate G#
> the same as Ab, or even a little higher . . .

In this last bit, Paul is referring to the "expressive intonation",
based on Pythagorean, that came into European non-keyboard musical
practice just after Mozart's death (1791).

Also keep in mind that there are geographical considerations here.
Daniel Wolf, about two years ago, submitted an excellent post
covering some of this. Apparently meantone lasted longer in
Catholic areas than in Protestant ones. Indeed, well-temperament
was considered in Germany to be a hallmark of separation in
ecclesiastical music. (I found this once on a webpage about
someone connected with Werckmeister... can't find it now.
Johnny? This was right after I met with you in December and
we discussed this stuff.)

And don't forget about the numerous intonational experiments
in England during the mid-to-late 1800s (Woolhouse, Bosanquet,
Brown, Perrett, Thompson... hmmm... I think one of them might
actually have been American...). While many of them focussed
on EDOs, most of those were chosen because of their similarities
to meantones.

And finally, as late as 1905, Mahler lamented to Schoenberg
that "it's too bad we've gotten rid of meantone... we've lost
a lot of harmonic possibilities".

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com