Big Comma Pumps,,,,,,,,,,

What would be your worst case example of a 5 to 8 chord progression
in 12-tET where when it is justified in some manner the comma shift
is as bad as possible and the underlying harmonies are as consonant
and pleasing as possible?

In other words, what's the riff that you really like when sung or
played on freely pitched instruments that gives you fits when you run
it through your favorite alternative tuning algorithm?

I'm looking for your worst case to put through my real time retuning
algorithm before I share it. If you give me a chord progression,
I'll give you a real audio file and you can critique my results.

thanks,

Jim

[Jim wrote:]
>What would be your worst case example of a 5 to 8 chord progression
>in 12-tET where when it is justified in some manner the comma shift
>is as bad as possible and the underlying harmonies are as consonant
>and pleasing as possible?

>In other words, what's the riff that you really like when sung or
>played on freely pitched instruments that gives you fits when you run
>it through your favorite alternative tuning algorithm?

>I'm looking for your worst case to put through my real time retuning
>algorithm before I share it. If you give me a chord progression,
>I'll give you a real audio file and you can critique my results.

Ho ho!! I've got sequences. Can you take them in MIDI format, or shall
I write them out?

JdL

OK, I can't wait to share my "favorite pumps". All of them can be
played backward, of course, to pump the other way. I've not included
any tritones, to sidestep the question of 5-limit vs. 7-limit or higher.

Comma pump downward:

C,E,G -> C,E,A -> D,F,A -> D,G,B -> (C,E,G - repeat a few times)

Ideally in each transition, notes will be tied when possible. Thus, to
avoid drift, vertical intervals must either be compromised and/or
sounding notes must change their intonation - very difficult choices!

Comma pump upward:

C,E -> C,G -> D,G -> D,A -> E,A -> E,G -> (C,E - repeat a few times)

Diesis pump:

C,E -> E,G# -> G#(/Ab),C -> (C,E - repeat)

Or do the same thing with minor thirds, up or down. These last pumps
probably wouldn't occur in "real music" as often as the comma pumps,
which are musically very viable. It's still fun to see how one's
methods respond!

Here's another thought: run each pump forward two or three times, then
backward the same number. No net drift would arise from JI treatment,
so adaptive treatment might ideally make more gentle modifications to JI
than when the pump is only run one way. Am I making sense?

If you're able to throw these (and/or others) at your methods, it'd be
great to see some numbers (cents deviation from 12-tET, etc.) as well as
hear the audio results. Thanks!

JdL

Well, I got around to arranging and tuning these progressions.
The results just barely fit in my web space at
http://www.geocities.com/egbdfine/dynatune/ExampleSounds.htm

Please do tell me what you think of this.

thanks,
Jim

--- In tuning@y..., "John A. deLaubenfels" <jdl@a...> wrote:
> OK, I can't wait to share my "favorite pumps". All of them can be
> played backward, of course, to pump the other way. I've not
included
> any tritones, to sidestep the question of 5-limit vs. 7-limit or
higher.
>
> Comma pump downward:
>
> C,E,G -> C,E,A -> D,F,A -> D,G,B -> (C,E,G - repeat a few times)
>
> Ideally in each transition, notes will be tied when possible. Thus,
to
> avoid drift, vertical intervals must either be compromised and/or
> sounding notes must change their intonation - very difficult
choices!
>
> Comma pump upward:
>
> C,E -> C,G -> D,G -> D,A -> E,A -> E,G -> (C,E - repeat a few times)
>
> Diesis pump:
>
> C,E -> E,G# -> G#(/Ab),C -> (C,E - repeat)
>
> Or do the same thing with minor thirds, up or down. These last
pumps
> probably wouldn't occur in "real music" as often as the comma pumps,
> which are musically very viable. It's still fun to see how one's
> methods respond!
>
> Here's another thought: run each pump forward two or three times,
then
> backward the same number. No net drift would arise from JI
treatment,
> so adaptive treatment might ideally make more gentle modifications
to JI
> than when the pump is only run one way. Am I making sense?
>
> If you're able to throw these (and/or others) at your methods, it'd
be
> great to see some numbers (cents deviation from 12-tET, etc.) as
well as
> hear the audio results. Thanks!
>
> JdL

[Jim wrote:]
>Well, I got around to arranging and tuning these progressions.
>The results just barely fit in my web space at
>http://www.geocities.com/egbdfine/dynatune/ExampleSounds.htm

>Please do tell me what you think of this.

Hi, Jim! I'm having the same problem as before: I click on the file,
and the little progress bar starts to move slowly, but nothing else
happens! I don't get my RealAudio program popping up to play it, and
don't get the box that asks what I want to do (open from location vs.
save to file).

I do have an awful dial-up connection, so I'm sure that's at least part
of the problem.

Any chance you could provide this in MIDI file format? That would also
let me peek inside and see the values you're using!

JdL

--- In tuning@y..., Jim wrote:

> > Well, I got around to arranging and tuning these progressions.
> > The results just barely fit in my web space at
> > http://www.geocities.com/egbdfine/dynatune/ExampleSounds.htm
>
> > Please do tell me what you think of this.

Hi Jim,

I haven't really followed this thread, but I gave your
"comma pumps" a listen. I thought someone who knows
John deLaubenfel's work should comment on yours, and
since John's having trouble downloading it, I'll jump in.

I can easily hear the retuning motion, especially in
the parts that have only one voice.

My opinion is that John's "adaptune" solution is audibly
more elegant, because he "hides" the retuning motion by
distributing it among different voices and performing it
always before and never during the sounding of any note.

I'm sorry that I can't comment more on your own procedures
... maybe someday I'll be able to go back into the archives
and read up on it. I *am* much more familiar with John's
algorithm, having followed it here since he first posted
on it. He's also retuned a lot of my own music, so I'm
intimately familiar with the types of retuning he's done.

-monz
http://www.monz.org
All roads lead to n^0

----- Original Message -----
From: monz <joemonz@yahoo.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 5:17 AM
Subject: [tuning] Re: Big Comma Pumps,,,,,,,,,,

>
> --- In tuning@y..., Jim wrote:
>
> > > Well, I got around to arranging and tuning these progressions.
> > > The results just barely fit in my web space at
> > > http://www.geocities.com/egbdfine/dynatune/ExampleSounds.htm
> >
> > > Please do tell me what you think of this.
>
>
> Hi Jim,
>
> I haven't really followed this thread, but I gave your
> "comma pumps" a listen. I thought someone who knows
> John deLaubenfel's work should comment on yours, and
> since John's having trouble downloading it, I'll jump in.
>
> I can easily hear the retuning motion, especially in
> the parts that have only one voice.
>
> My opinion is that John's "adaptune" solution is audibly
> more elegant, because he "hides" the retuning motion by
> distributing it among different voices and performing it
> always before and never during the sounding of any note.
>
> I'm sorry that I can't comment more on your own procedures
> ... maybe someday I'll be able to go back into the archives
> and read up on it. I *am* much more familiar with John's
> algorithm, having followed it here since he first posted
> on it. He's also retuned a lot of my own music, so I'm
> intimately familiar with the types of retuning he's done.
>
>
>
> -monz
> http://www.monz.org
> All roads lead to n^0
>
>
>
>
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe
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Whoops, sorry about that -- I accidentally sent a response before I
even wrote anything!

Joe Monzo wrote,

<<My opinion is that John's "adaptune" solution is audibly more
elegant, because he "hides" the retuning motion by distributing it
among different voices and performing it always before and never
during the sounding of any note.>>

I wouldn't doubt that John's solution is more audibly more elegant,
after all he has put several years into fine tuning (pun intended) it
here at the list. But in the few pieces I heard you could definitely
hear retuning motion during the sounding of the notes!

In fact I liked this very much, especially on supposedly fixed pitch
instruments, and I've used similar effects to cause subtle
disorientation in the listener in the past myself.

--Dan Stearns

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: D.Stearns <STEARNS@CAPECOD.NET>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 8:28 AM
> Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Big Comma Pumps,,,,,,,,,,
>
> Joe Monzo wrote,
>
> <<My opinion is that John's "adaptune" solution is audibly more
> elegant, because he "hides" the retuning motion by distributing it
> among different voices and performing it always before and never
> during the sounding of any note.>>
>
> I wouldn't doubt that John's solution is more audibly more elegant,
> after all he has put several years into fine tuning (pun intended) it
> here at the list. But in the few pieces I heard you could definitely
> hear retuning motion during the sounding of the notes!
>
> In fact I liked this very much, especially on supposedly fixed pitch
> instruments, and I've used similar effects to cause subtle
> disorientation in the listener in the past myself.

Right you are, Dan... musical context means everything! I didn't
mean to imply any criticism of Jim's audio file, and I realize
now that it probably seems that I did. Just making one hopefully
semi-objective observation.

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

[Monz wrote:]
>>My opinion is that John's "adaptune" solution is audibly more
>>elegant, because he "hides" the retuning motion by distributing it
>>among different voices and performing it always before and never
>>during the sounding of any note.

That's close to correct, but it's not quite "never"...

[Dan Stearns:]
>I wouldn't doubt that John's solution is more audibly more elegant,
>after all he has put several years into fine tuning (pun intended) it
>here at the list. But in the few pieces I heard you could definitely
>hear retuning motion during the sounding of the notes!

Hmm! Do you remember if that was after the debut of the spring model
in early 2000? The stuff I do now has horizontal motion in pretty tight
check, especially for continuously sounding notes. I will tend to bend
the vertical intervals a few cents from JI instead.

[Dan:]
>In fact I liked this very much, especially on supposedly fixed pitch
>instruments, and I've used similar effects to cause subtle
>disorientation in the listener in the past myself.

Kyool! I'm still struggling to listen to Jim's post. Glad others are
commenting!

JdL

Hi John,

I don't know when the pieces I've listened to more than once were
from, but one I distinctly remember hearing the drift in sounding
pitches in was a short piano piece of your own (which I quite liked by
the way). I found that piece at John Starrett's Tuning Punks site, but
I forget the title at the moment... bittersweet something or the other
or something?

The others I vaguely remember this same effect in were some jazz
retunings -- teeny little midi vibraphones and pianos queasily
portamentoing off to their target pitches, that sort of thing. Again,
I don't know exactly when this was from?

One other note. I haven't actually listened to any of Jim's examples.
I was just commenting on Joe's 'no drift in the sounding notes'
comment, and expressing my affection for this effect (somewhat like
the unexpected movement of an elevator, the car next to you at a red
light, etc.).

Sorry for the confusion.

--Dan Stearns

--- In tuning@y..., "Jim" <egbdfine@y...> wrote:
> Well, I got around to arranging and tuning these progressions.
> The results just barely fit in my web space at
> http://www.geocities.com/egbdfine/dynatune/ExampleSounds.htm
>
> Please do tell me what you think of this.
>
> thanks,
> Jim

I listened to CommaPumps.rm and mostly, it made me queasy in a really
seasick sort of way. Honestly -- not exaggerating or being
metaphorical or trying to insult you -- that's really how I felt.
Piano tones shouldn't wobble like that. John deLaubenfels, in his
MIDI files, has created the illusion of fixed-pitch pianos playing
all JI chords. _That's_ what I like.

[Jim wrote:]
>>Well, I got around to arranging and tuning these progressions.
>>The results just barely fit in my web space at
>>http://www.geocities.com/egbdfine/dynatune/ExampleSounds.htm

>>Please do tell me what you think of this.

[Paul E wrote:]
>I listened to CommaPumps.rm and mostly, it made me queasy in a really
>seasick sort of way. Honestly -- not exaggerating or being
>metaphorical or trying to insult you -- that's really how I felt.
>Piano tones shouldn't wobble like that. John deLaubenfels, in his
>MIDI files, has created the illusion of fixed-pitch pianos playing
>all JI chords. _That's_ what I like.

Jim, I'm still having trouble listening to your samples (more about
this later), but I do want to jump in. I value Paul E's opinions
highly; he has suggested many potential refinements to me for which I
have been grateful (and some which I've just plain ignored). Still (and
I feel sure Paul would not disagree) I want to encourage you not to be
bothered by his critical comments. First of all, Paul's ear is _very_
picky in some ways, and he dislikes the tunings I like most of all
(7-limit treatments of past works). Next, we all have a long list of
refinements, already planned or otherwise, that could be made to our
techniques. I once estimated I had about 10 improvements on a
mental list, but when I actually wrote them out, it was more like 30!
Of these, I've completed maybe 2 or 3 to date, and added at least a
dozen more.

Still looking forward to hearing your work...

JdL

--- In tuning@y..., "John A. deLaubenfels" <jdl@a...> wrote:

> First of all, Paul's ear is _very_
> picky in some ways,

True -- and my stomach seems to be very strongly connected to my ears
today.

> and he dislikes the tunings I like most of all
> (7-limit treatments of past works).

Not necessarily -- I think 7-limit works well for a lot of blues-
based music such as Gershwin and jazz.

Funny reading Paul's replies in that we shared virtually the same
reaction to this effect yet we tend to see the end results at polar
opposite ends of the taste spectrum -- at least some things in life
are consistent!

A few pieces I've had up in the past prominently featured this effect.
Namely the "Turntable Quartet", which was pretty much a study in
working this sound, but also in a subtler way, "Silvered Alar Rise!".

When I worked with Mat Maneri in his microtonal, experimental rap
group Inslut we used this sound on everything. In fact it got to the
point where any time either of us were recording a track, no matter
the instrument, the other would be busily working away at the pitch
control knob on the reel to reel too! The whammy pedal was a major
motion sickness contributor on these recordings as well... oh fun,
fun, fun (well, not for everyone of course).

--Dan Stearns

--- In tuning@y..., "monz" <joemonz@y...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_24298.html#24524

>
> --- In tuning@y..., Jim wrote:
>
> > > Well, I got around to arranging and tuning these progressions.
> > > The results just barely fit in my web space at
> > > http://www.geocities.com/egbdfine/dynatune/ExampleSounds.htm
> >
> > > Please do tell me what you think of this.
>

Dunno about this... In the first place, the comma pump file didn't
really "stream..." It took HOURS to download it, and I'm using a
cable modem.

Additionally, the piano sound was VERY low... not an optimal
register, and the pitches seemed to "wobble" all over the place.

Wow. If that's the "comma" I think I'll opt instead for a
semicolon...

________ ______ _______
Joseph Pehrson

Thank you all for your comments,

I chose the piano sound in this case because a "fixed pitch"
instrument that wobbles at all is the worst case scenario. It will
make you queasy if you're not expecting it. I try thinking of it as
a really big resonant guitar. Retuning an organ doesn't have any
mental references like that though.

I agree with Joe that John's methods allow for a more elegant
handling of retuning motion, but he also doesn't even try to do this
in a responsive real time system. Having the entire piece in memory
before your algorithm even starts is the path he's chosen. I'm
trying to do the best I can with my alternate path.

Where John has two different sets of "springs", I also have two
different parameters that can be adjusted. You might prefer a
different set of values for a particular sound.

Jim

--- In tuning@y..., "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@C...> wrote:
> Whoops, sorry about that -- I accidentally sent a response before I
> even wrote anything!
>
> Joe Monzo wrote,
>
> <<My opinion is that John's "adaptune" solution is audibly more
> elegant, because he "hides" the retuning motion by distributing it
> among different voices and performing it always before and never
> during the sounding of any note.>>
>
> I wouldn't doubt that John's solution is more audibly more elegant,
> after all he has put several years into fine tuning (pun intended)
it
> here at the list. But in the few pieces I heard you could definitely
> hear retuning motion during the sounding of the notes!
>
> In fact I liked this very much, especially on supposedly fixed pitch
> instruments, and I've used similar effects to cause subtle
> disorientation in the listener in the past myself.
>
> --Dan Stearns

--- In tuning@y..., "Jim" <egbdfine@y...> wrote:
>
> I agree with Joe that John's methods allow for a more elegant
> handling of retuning motion, but he also doesn't even try to do this
> in a responsive real time system. Having the entire piece in memory
> before your algorithm even starts is the path he's chosen. I'm
> trying to do the best I can with my alternate path.

John deLaubenfels also has a real-time tuning program, called "JI Relay" or something like that if
I recall correctly. John, why haven't you mentioned this? I'd be interested in a comparison.
>
> Where John has two different sets of "springs", I also have two
> different parameters that can be adjusted. You might prefer a
> different set of values for a particular sound.
>
Sure. Feel free to discuss these parameters in detail.

[Jim wrote:]
>>I agree with Joe that John's methods allow for a more elegant
>>handling of retuning motion, but he also doesn't even try to do this
>>in a responsive real time system. Having the entire piece in memory
>>before your algorithm even starts is the path he's chosen. I'm
>>trying to do the best I can with my alternate path.

[Paul E:]
>John also has a real-time tuning program, called "JI Relay" or
>something like that if I recall correctly. John, why haven't you
>mentioned this? I'd be interested in a comparison.

Yes, it's true. It's still available on my web page, at the bottom.
It makes its tuning decisions solely upon the set of notes playing at
any given moment in time, and centers tuning deviation around an average
of zero compared to 12-tET. I haven't mentioned it because I've been
so focused on leisure tuning for the last two years, and consider my
best work to be in this realm.

[Jim:]
>>Where John has two different sets of "springs", I also have two
>>different parameters that can be adjusted. You might prefer a
>>different set of values for a particular sound.

[Paul:]
>Sure. Feel free to discuss these parameters in detail.

I, too, would like more info on your methods, Jim. Are your vertical
intervals always exact JI? What things do your input parameters adjust?
Could you share output tuning values in cents and/or midi files? How
do you deal with transitions, where the old chord overlaps the new
slightly? That's another type of challenge, BTW, that is VERY difficult
for real-time software, IMO, especially in limits beyond 5.

JdL