TUNING!

Hey what do you guys tune to anyway?
A = 440Hz?

Marc

A = 426.7, B = 60

----- Original Message -----
From: Orphon Soul, Inc.
To: Tuning List
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 6:43 AM
Subject: [tuning] TUNING!

Hey what do you guys tune to anyway?
A = 440Hz

I tune to 440Hz but do not (necessarily) call it A.
Except for my 333Hz piece
==John ff

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Orphon Soul, Inc. <tuning@orphonsoul.com>
> To: Tuning List <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 3:43 AM
> Subject: [tuning] TUNING!
>

> Hey what do you guys tune to anyway?
> A = 440Hz?

Bottom C = 2^0 = 1 Hz
middle-C = 2^8 = 256 Hz

The tuning of "A" depends on *which* "A". :)

If middle-C = 1/1 = 2^(0/12),

A 5/3 = 426&2/3 Hz
A 27/16 = 432 Hz
A 2^(9/12) = ~430.5389646 Hz

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

_________________________________________________________
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--- In tuning@y..., "monz" <joemonz@y...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_24175.html#24199
>
> > Hey what do you guys tune to anyway?
> > A = 440Hz?
>
>
> Bottom C = 2^0 = 1 Hz
> middle-C = 2^8 = 256 Hz
>
>
> The tuning of "A" depends on *which* "A". :)
>
> If middle-C = 1/1 = 2^(0/12),
>
> A 5/3 = 426&2/3 Hz
> A 27/16 = 432 Hz
> A 2^(9/12) = ~430.5389646 Hz
>
>
>
> -monz
> http://www.monz.org
> "All roads lead to n^0"
>

I'm also using C4 at 256 Hz as my main tuning reference for
Blackjack...

(Using SCALA "map C linear"...)

__________ _______ _______
Joseph Pehrson

--- In tuning@y..., jpehrson@r... wrote:

> I'm also using C4 at 256 Hz as my main tuning reference for
> Blackjack...
>
>
> (Using SCALA "map C linear"...)

Really? I thought you were using "standard" C, the "equal-tempered" C
based on A-440, which is 440 Hz * 2^(-3/4) = 261.6 Hz. I though we
checked against your piano and we had a match (I think I would have
heard the 38-cent discrepancy . . .)

--- In tuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_24175.html#24203

> --- In tuning@y..., jpehrson@r... wrote:
>
> > I'm also using C4 at 256 Hz as my main tuning reference for
> > Blackjack...
> >
> >
> > (Using SCALA "map C linear"...)
>
> Really? I thought you were using "standard" C, the "equal-tempered"
C
> based on A-440, which is 440 Hz * 2^(-3/4) = 261.6 Hz. I though we
> checked against your piano and we had a match (I think I would have
> heard the 38-cent discrepancy . . .)

Sorry, Paul. Of course. It's 261.6 Hz. Why is Monzo doing 256 Hz??

_________ ______ ______
Joseph Pehrson

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: monz <joemonz@yahoo.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 10:41 AM
> Subject: Re: [tuning] TUNING!
>

> > [Orphon Soul:]
> >
> > Hey what do you guys tune to anyway?
> > A = 440Hz?
>
>
> Bottom C = 2^0 = 1 Hz
> middle-C = 2^8 = 256 Hz

Which, BTW, puts the 60 Hz American electrical current
hum, to which David Beardsley and La Monte Young tune,
at exactly a 16:15 (= ~111.73 cents) below C = 64 Hz,
so the hum is the "B" a 5-limit diatonic semitone below
(or the "usual" 5-limit JI "leading tone").

In Europe, with 50 Hz electric current, the hum is
a 32:25 (= ~427.37 cents) below C = 64 Hz, so it's the
"Fb" a "diminished-4th" below C.

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

----- Original Message -----
From: <jpehrson@rcn.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 10:57 AM
Subject: [tuning] Re: TUNING!

> > [Paul Erlich:]
> >
> > Really? I thought you were using "standard" C, the
> > "equal-tempered" C based on A-440, which is
> > 440 Hz * 2^(-3/4) = 261.6 Hz. I though[t] we checked
> > against your piano and we had a match (I think I would
> > have heard the 38-cent discrepancy . . .)
>
> Sorry, Paul. Of course. It's 261.6 Hz.
> Why is Monzo doing 256 Hz??

Joe, I wrote:

> Bottom C = 2^0 = 1 Hz
> middle-C = 2^8 = 256 Hz

What's not clear about that? You call your bottom reference
frequency of 1 Hz "C", and middle-C works out to 256 Hz, which
is ~37.63165623 cents (Paul's "38-cent discrepancy") below
~261.6255653 Hz (the 12-tET "C" below A-440).

Sure, that can be heard, but it's still pretty close, and
certainly well within the realm of historically accepted
tunings for middle-C. (See Ellis's appendix XX in Helmholtz,
_On the Sensations of Tone_.)

I figured if there has to be a reference frequency, might
as well use 1 Hz, since the naming of "C" worked out so well.

In actuality, I normally don't concern myself with frequencies
at all - unless I'm forced to by software/hardware, and then
I'm usually forced to accept 440/(2^(9/12)) anyway, which is
what you're using, Joe.

I instead simply think of middle-C itself as "n^0", with the
audible range running (slightly beyond at either end) from
C 2^-4 to C 2^4, as presented in my old paper:
<http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/article/article.htm>.

But Marc asked.

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

On 6/1/01 1:53 PM, "Paul Erlich" <paul@stretch-music.com> wrote:

[Pehrson:]
>> I'm also using C4 at 256 Hz as my main tuning reference for
>> Blackjack...
>>
>>
>> (Using SCALA "map C linear"...)

[Erlich:]
> Really? I thought you were using "standard" C, the "equal-tempered" C
> based on A-440, which is 440 Hz * 2^(-3/4) = 261.6 Hz. I though we
> checked against your piano and we had a match (I think I would have
> heard the 38-cent discrepancy . . .)

Yes you would have heard a 5.6 Hz phasing.

This is interesting now.
I thought maybe there might be some instance where one of you
didn't realize what another of you was tuned to!

This wasn't a trap though. No jokes.
It's facetious on the surface, I admit,
asking about tuning for its namesake,
in a place where digression is rampant
and at times outlawed!!
I'd been seriously wondering, though,
with ALL the talk of temperament and relative tuning,
*especially* since a lot of you work in more than one system,
what you use as a tuning standard.

I notice some of you tune your A's together,
some of you tune your C's.
Very interesting.
Thanks. Anyone else?

Marc

I don't use any pitch standard. My 22-tET guitar and keyboard are in
tune with one another . . . if the guitar is in tune with itself but
the keyboard isn't, I simply adjust the "Master Tune" on the
keyboard. I have relative pitch, so absolute pitch doesn't matter to
me. Once in a while I check if the 22-tET guitar strings aren't far
off the 12-tET guitar strings, to prevent breakage situations. But
that's all.

72-tET, if used with standard instruments, etc., should, for
practical reasons only, have A=440.

On 6/1/01 4:09 PM, "monz" <joemonz@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I instead simply think of middle-C itself as "n^0", with the
> audible range running (slightly beyond at either end) from
> C 2^-4 to C 2^4, as presented in my old paper:
> <http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/article/article.htm>.
>
>
> But Marc asked.

Yup.

One more thing,
I was wondering with all the debate about temperaments,
why there wasn't an ongoing demand for
an "absolute" tuning standard.

...or did I just start it.

Marc

Paul,

--- In tuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> I don't use any pitch standard. My 22-tET guitar and keyboard are
> in tune with one another . . . if the guitar is in tune with itself
> but the keyboard isn't, I simply adjust the "Master Tune" on the
> keyboard.

What about when you play with other musicians?

-Jon

--- In tuning@y..., JSZANTO@A... wrote:
> Paul,
>
> --- In tuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> > I don't use any pitch standard. My 22-tET guitar and keyboard are
> > in tune with one another . . . if the guitar is in tune with
itself
> > but the keyboard isn't, I simply adjust the "Master Tune" on the
> > keyboard.
>
> What about when you play with other musicians?
>
> -Jon

Ara plays _my_ keyboard. We are the only 22-tET musicians around here!

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: monz <joemonz@yahoo.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 12:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [tuning] TUNING!
> >
> >
> > Bottom C = 2^0 = 1 Hz
> > middle-C = 2^8 = 256 Hz
>
>
> Which, BTW, puts the 60 Hz American electrical current
> hum, to which David Beardsley and La Monte Young tune,
> at exactly a 16:15 (= ~111.73 cents) below C = 64 Hz,
> so the hum is the "B" a 5-limit diatonic semitone below
> (or the "usual" 5-limit JI "leading tone").
>
> In Europe, with 50 Hz electric current, the hum is
> a 32:25 (= ~427.37 cents) below C = 64 Hz, so it's the
> "Fb" a "diminished-4th" below C.

Which, BTW, means that tuning to C-1 Hz would not be
appropriate for either Young or Beardsley, who both
eschew the use of any ratios with 5 as a factor in
their compositions. They wouldn't want the "phantom
5-limit effect" creeping into their harmonies.

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

On Fri, 01 Jun 2001 06:43:00 -0400, "Orphon Soul, Inc."
<tuning@orphonsoul.com> wrote:

>Hey what do you guys tune to anyway?
>A = 440Hz?

Usually either C = 261.63 Hz or C = 256 Hz.

--- In tuning@y..., "monz" <joemonz@y...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_24175.html#24227

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <jpehrson@r...>
> To: <tuning@y...>
> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 10:57 AM
> Subject: [tuning] Re: TUNING!
>
>
> > > [Paul Erlich:]
> > >
> > > Really? I thought you were using "standard" C, the
> > > "equal-tempered" C based on A-440, which is
> > > 440 Hz * 2^(-3/4) = 261.6 Hz. I though[t] we checked
> > > against your piano and we had a match (I think I would
> > > have heard the 38-cent discrepancy . . .)
> >
> > Sorry, Paul. Of course. It's 261.6 Hz.
> > Why is Monzo doing 256 Hz??
>
>
> Joe, I wrote:
>
> > Bottom C = 2^0 = 1 Hz
> > middle-C = 2^8 = 256 Hz
>
>
> What's not clear about that? You call your bottom reference
> frequency of 1 Hz "C", and middle-C works out to 256 Hz, which
> is ~37.63165623 cents (Paul's "38-cent discrepancy") below
> ~261.6255653 Hz (the 12-tET "C" below A-440).
>
> Sure, that can be heard, but it's still pretty close, and
> certainly well within the realm of historically accepted
> tunings for middle-C. (See Ellis's appendix XX in Helmholtz,
> _On the Sensations of Tone_.)
>
>
> I figured if there has to be a reference frequency, might
> as well use 1 Hz, since the naming of "C" worked out so well.
>
> In actuality, I normally don't concern myself with frequencies
> at all - unless I'm forced to by software/hardware, and then
> I'm usually forced to accept 440/(2^(9/12)) anyway, which is
> what you're using, Joe.
>

I guess I'm not understanding, Monz, why you would change the A-440
standard in order to prove a mathematical point that you can start
with 1Hz in your system.

How can you *not* concern yourself with frequencies if you want
musicians to play along with your music??

Does't there have to be EXTREMELY "compelling" reasoning before an
accepted International standard is controverted??

__________ _______ _______
Joseph Pehrson

If you are talking about acoustic pianos, I suggest a more thorough procedure just to be on the safe side. Unlike other stringed instruments, pianos have an enormous amount of tension, both overall and on each string. There is no doubt an engineering safety factor, but I don't know how much and never thought to ask when touring a piano factory. Could you, for example, tune to A-450 safely (band pitch)? I've heard that some orchestras even tune to A-460! About a hundred and fifty years ago, pianos had less tension because the higher tensile strength steel used today had not yet been developed as an alloy. Such pianos have a warmer, less brilliant sound. The extra string stiffness due to increased tension makes for more higher harmonics and a more brilliant sound.
What I've done in piano retuning has been to carefully chart the pitch of all tones for whatever scale variant I want and make sure that these are no higher than 12 tet would be on the same strings in Hz. This decreased tension in most if not all cases will make a somewhat less brilliant tone, but I feel this is a small sacrifice to make to avoid dealing with broken strings.
If you have an old piano that has been tuned many times or even a newer one that you want to work on a lot, you may need to use a fluid called pin block restorer. As the wood ages or wears, this will cause it to swell slightly and keep the tuning pins from loosening up too much or too easily and making them more prone not to stay in tune. You can buy this from a piano rebuilding shop. At a drop or two per pin, you only need a small bottle. The trick is, if you have an upright, that to apply this effectively, you need to lay the piano on its back. Don't try this alone. You need at least two strong men, both to put it down and to lift it back when finished.
>>> jpehrson@rcn.com 06/01/01 01:57PM >>>
--- In tuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_24175.html#24203

> --- In tuning@y..., jpehrson@r... wrote:
>
> > I'm also using C4 at 256 Hz as my main tuning reference for
> > Blackjack...
> >
> >
> > (Using SCALA "map C linear"...)
>
> Really? I thought you were using "standard" C, the "equal-tempered"
C
> based on A-440, which is 440 Hz * 2^(-3/4) = 261.6 Hz. I though we
> checked against your piano and we had a match (I think I would have
> heard the 38-cent discrepancy . . .)

Sorry, Paul. Of course. It's 261.6 Hz. Why is Monzo doing 256 Hz??

_________ ______ ______
Joseph Pehrson

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