More "Star Winds": Name That Tune?

Just a page after the quote I posted before (Fictional Music) there is more, which made me wonder whether something the author heard might have inspired his description. Page 124:

. . . Everywhere there was quiet music, sometimes from indefinable
sources, much of it strange and jarring to the ear -- developed, Rachad
imagined, from the odd dissonances and mind-twisting themes, lacking
any key or regular rhythm, that the melody mist generated. And often
there were eerie cries, bellows, prolonged and unintelligible monologues,
and frighteningly strange singing -- though whether all of this emanated
from madmen or from some form of drama that was being performed,
Rachad did not inquire.
Yet despite all these sounds, an unnerving air of silence prevailed in
the Aegis. Every noise, every cry, every note of music, seemed to be
separated from every other by long gulfs of silence. It was a heavy,
blank silence that to a newcomer was depressing.

(This book was published in 1978, copyrighted by its author, Barrington J. Bailey.)

--- In tuning@y..., "John F. Sprague" <jsprague@d...> wrote:
> Just a page after the quote I posted before (Fictional Music) there
is more, which made me wonder whether something the author heard might
have inspired his description. Page 124:
>
> . . . Everywhere there was quiet music, sometimes from
indefinable
> sources, much of it strange and jarring to the ear --
developed, Rachad
> imagined, from the odd dissonances and mind-twisting themes,
lacking
> any key or regular rhythm, that the melody mist generated. And
often
> there were eerie cries, bellows, prolonged and unintelligible
monologues,
> and frighteningly strange singing -- though whether all of this
emanated
> from madmen or from some form of drama that was being
performed,
> Rachad did not inquire.

Obviously, the author somehow leaped into the future and visited Mary
Ackerley's site. ;-) http://www.elucida.com/index.html
You gotta hear it to believe it.

It wasn't "melody mist" that generated it, but a combination of
algorithmic composition software with Pro Tools, and a vivid
imagination. And it wasn't madmen, it was just one woman with a flair
for the fantastical.

I remember in a book called Sirius about a dog who could talk that the dog who had superior ears could only stand music in 53 tone scales cause all the other human singing was too out
of tune of him1

"John F. Sprague" wrote:

> Just a page after the quote I posted before (Fictional Music) there is more, which made me wonder whether something the author heard might have inspired his description. Page 124:
>
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

.
>
> Obviously, the author somehow leaped into the future and visited
Mary
> Ackerley's site. ;-) http://www.elucida.com/index.html
> You gotta hear it to believe it.

Thanks David . I really like that kind of a plug:-)
>
> It wasn't "melody mist" that generated it

I've had many dreams where I am in a structure with LIving Walls.
The music is coming from all surfaces, including the floor and
ceiling, and there is a "plasma" that the individual can interact
with to direct his own compositions. Its a time when much more is
understood about how music effects human chemistry, and its possisble
to select modes for awe, for sacredness, for curiousity, for clarity
etc.

Sometimes it goes submicroscopic and I'm surrounded by infinite
lattices that again can produce sound at their intersections.
Unfortunately the math of these lattices doesn't transfer with me out
of the dream state, only the music :-)

Mary

--- In tuning@y..., nanom3@h... wrote:

> Sometimes it goes submicroscopic and I'm surrounded by infinite
> lattices that again can produce sound at their intersections.
> Unfortunately the math of these lattices doesn't transfer with me
out
> of the dream state, only the music :-)
>
> Mary

You are very lucky, Mary. I have great difficulty transferring the
music from my dream-like state into the waking world. Any tips?

> You are very lucky, Mary. I have great difficulty transferring the
> music from my dream-like state into the waking world. Any tips?

What works for me is to let myself wake up as gently and stress free
as possible. Alarm clocks are just going to wipe out any sound from
your dreams. Get enough sleep, and leave yourself 15 to 20 minutes
when you first wake to just remember your dreams, even write them
down. You'll find tht doing that consistently usually works real
well. You could even have a little tape player by the bed to hum
into.

Also there is a concept of the dreambody which works for me. If you
let yourself imitate one of the positions your body was in while you
were dreaming - ie going into that posture often times that will
promote recall of the whole dream.

And I find sublingual B12 right before bed is sometimes very
powerful.

The key though, is staying out of stress. Stress does not facilitate
dreaming or dream recall.

--- In tuning@y..., nanom3@h... wrote:
>
> > You are very lucky, Mary. I have great difficulty transferring
the
> > music from my dream-like state into the waking world. Any tips?
>
> What works for me is to let myself wake up as gently and stress
free
> as possible. Alarm clocks are just going to wipe out any sound
from
> your dreams. Get enough sleep, and leave yourself 15 to 20 minutes
> when you first wake to just remember your dreams, even write them
> down. You'll find tht doing that consistently usually works real
> well. You could even have a little tape player by the bed to hum
> into.

Good advice . . . the problem is, the dream-like states where I have
musical "visions" don't occur during normal sleep. Instead, sometimes
(particularly if I go to bed a little earlier than usual), I'll fall
into the "wrong hole" -- instead of being asleep, I'm in a paralyzed
state. The music comes to me in the form of a hallucination -- far
from a dream, it's incredibly vivid, clear in every detail, and used
to always fool me into thinking it was real. Meanwhile, I can't move
or speak, it's the most frightening feeling imaginable.

> The key though, is staying out of stress. Stress does not
facilitate
> dreaming or dream recall.

Actually, the two most stressful things in my life by far are

1) this paralysis state itself
2) one or two people on this list who have declared war against me
(no need to talk about that here)

Keep up the terrific music, Mary!

. Meanwhile, I can't move
or speak, it's the most frightening feeling imaginable

That is called a hypnogogic hallucination with sleep paralysis. If
you can just relax when it happens, and enjoy it, you are on the way
to lucid dreaming. And you are very lucky also if you can do lucid
dreaming - its a very creative state to obtain. There is a lot
written about it. The Tibetans in particular know an awful lot about
how to cultivate such states.

It also sounds like you might benefit from taking little naps during
the day, and letting yourself dream like Edison did. Daydreaming is
usually where I get my most vivid, conscious dreams

For me waking up to announcements like PPI was terrible and futures
are lock limit down tends to blow my dream recollection.

Mary

--- In tuning@y..., nanom3@h... wrote:
> . Meanwhile, I can't move
> or speak, it's the most frightening feeling imaginable
>
> That is called a hypnogogic hallucination with sleep paralysis.

So other people have it too?

> If
> you can just relax when it happens,

Hmm . . . relax while overcome by inexplicable fear . . . sounds hard.

> and enjoy it, you are on the way
> to lucid dreaming. And you are very lucky also if you can do lucid
> dreaming - its a very creative state to obtain. There is a lot
> written about it. The Tibetans in particular know an awful lot
about
> how to cultivate such states.

Through meditation? I have to say, I'm getting a lot better at
reaching a purely creative, trans-conscious state during musical
improvisation . . . not every time, but a lot of the time . . . but
one pair of hands can only do so much . . .
>
> It also sounds like you might benefit from taking little naps
during
> the day, and letting yourself dream like Edison did.

Sometimes I take naps, sometimes I don't . . . and sometimes a nap
turns into the frightening experience in question (BTW, these
experiences have become very rare for me).

> Daydreaming is
> usually where I get my most vivid, conscious dreams

By daydreaming, do you mean you're awake, or asleep . . . or neither?
>
> For me waking up to announcements like PPI was terrible and futures
> are lock limit down tends to blow my dream recollection.

Whoa . . . I didn't understand that sentence at all. Can you explain
what these terms mean?

Paul,

--- In tuning@y..., paul@s... wrote:

> > For me waking up to announcements like PPI was terrible and
> > futures are lock limit down tends to blow my dream
> > recollection.
>
> Whoa . . . I didn't understand that sentence at all. Can you
> explain what these terms mean?

I'm taking a wild stab, but I think this is market trading. Numbers
like this (stocks, futures, etc.) are usually pretty foreign
territory to us musicians, locked into poverty mode!!!

But I stand ready to be corrected (about the stock guess, or whether
the majority of us tend to be somewhat ignorant of day trading and
other fiduciary hobbies...)

Cheers,
Jon

On 5/21/01 5:10 PM, "paul@stretch-music.com" <paul@stretch-music.com> wrote:

> --- In tuning@y..., nanom3@h... wrote:
>> . Meanwhile, I can't move
>> or speak, it's the most frightening feeling imaginable
>>
>> That is called a hypnogogic hallucination with sleep paralysis.
>
> So other people have it too?

Most definitely!!!
I knew the word hypnogogic long before I knew the name
for a lot of my other mental incapacities.
I've found the hypnogogic accessible playing in 56. (the 22+34 scale)
Especially if you work in the whole 34 scale,
it seems to modulate the whole nightmare state of mind.
Sort of a primal way of getting some fear out.
Straight fear I'd use 63 though.

Actually Paul you come pretty close to that,
in some of the way I've heard you play 22.
That's more the "sleep" element though.
Musically very cool and drowsy,
but when reinforced with the nightmarish capabilities of 34,
playing that nested scale in 56 knocks through that state of mind.

A little like 32, this is why in 56
you have to work in 1/4-octave minor thirds.
The 5:4 is so accurate in 28,
it has a vampirish effect on your consciousness.
Not the real experiential vampirishness of 46,
but more like someone slipping you something.
The 1/4-octave bridges the experience
instead of clamping your brain with it.

Mind you, there's no danger in doing that with straight 22.
It contradicts all the vampirishness of the real world,
and it provides the same kind of energy
that allows preteens the innocence to be extremely morbid.
It's actually kind of daring Paul's able to play like that.
I'm hoping picking off this piece I might be able to.
I'm so geared to pile layers on with different temperaments,
it's not so often I leave *one* temperament alone,
single tracked, and doing something appropriate for it solo.

The Twilight Zone often played with hypnogogic states.
Between light and dark... shadow and substance...
it's more literally a state between being awake and being asleep.

>> If
>> you can just relax when it happens,
>
> Hmm . . . relax while overcome by inexplicable fear . . . sounds hard.

THAT you CAN do with 22.

>> For me waking up to announcements like PPI was terrible and futures
>> are lock limit down tends to blow my dream recollection.
>
> Whoa . . . I didn't understand that sentence at all. Can you explain
> what these terms mean?

HA
Someone works in high finance eh? ;)
That sentence does have a sort of "WHOA" to it.
Like the phone rings and you think it's a book.
You just don't connect yet.
Like your brain is dialing back up into reality.
Sigh.

> So other people have it too?

Yes its pretty common although I don't remember the percentages.
>
> > If
> > you can just relax when it happens,
>
> Hmm . . . relax while overcome by inexplicable fear . . . sounds
hard.
>
Breathe. Best advice in the world. Lots of time just knowing its a
known phenomenon is real helpful. When you can relax through it you
really will have opened another door to your creativity. Its kind of
related to hypnosis, and probably a good hypnotist (PhD psychologist
etc) could induce it and lead you right through it.
>
> Through meditation? I have to say, I'm getting a lot better at
> reaching a purely creative, trans-conscious state during musical
> improvisation . . . not every time, but a lot of the time . . . but
> one pair of hands can only do so much . . .
> >

>
> By daydreaming, do you mean you're awake, or asleep . . . or
neither?

Maybe neither - maybe a third state inbetween? Not sure, as
sometimes I can direct the dreams where I want to explore
> >
> > For me waking up to announcements like PPI was terrible and
futures
> > are lock limit down tends to blow my dream recollection.

Yeah its daytrading with the Fed in the picture, like last April :-)

--- In tuning@y..., "Orphon Soul, Inc." <tuning@o...> wrote:
>
> Mind you, there's no danger in doing that with straight 22.
> It contradicts all the vampirishness of the real world,
> and it provides the same kind of energy
> that allows preteens the innocence to be extremely morbid.

Preteens the innocence to be extremely morbid . . . (scratch scratch
shrug)

> It's actually kind of daring Paul's able to play like that.
> I'm hoping picking off this piece I might be able to.

If you're talking about the piece played on the radio, there are
mainly two scales we used there.

One is the scale 4 3 3 3 3 3 3.

Notice how (speaking conventionally, in terms of root-3rd-5th chords)
the v and vi chords are minor triads, and the VII and I chords are
major triads. But on I, you can add the 2nd and 4th, and get a nice
8:9:10:11:12 chord. That chord comes at the beginning and end of the
piece.

The other scale is nine consecutive "Pythagorean" notes. We play five
4:6:7:9 chords, up a fourth each time, and then moving between the
last one and the first one, which are a 7:9 apart in 22-tET.

The amazing thing is that for this piece (but not the one before it),
Ara used just 12 out of the 22 pitches on the keyboard. I posted the
keyboard mapping when I discovered it, a couple of weeks before the
concert.

--- In tuning@y..., "Orphon Soul, Inc." <tuning@o...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_23431.html#23483

> The Twilight Zone often played with hypnogogic states.
> Between light and dark... shadow and substance...
> it's more literally a state between being awake and
> being asleep.
>

All this stuff about hypnogogic states is really intersting
to me. I've done a very heavy-duty analysis of Mahler's 7th
Symphony, and I think that much of that work is his attempt
to portray these kinds of mental states.

(None of this is published yet. It's OT anyway... until I
get my MIDI-file of it redone into meantone, which I just
found out Mahler preferred.)

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

In-Reply-To: <9ebs7e+qvhu@eGroups.com>
Mary wrote:

> Also there is a concept of the dreambody which works for me. If you
> let yourself imitate one of the positions your body was in while you
> were dreaming - ie going into that posture often times that will
> promote recall of the whole dream.

Be careful about doing this in company. It can lead to some embarrassing
situations.

Graham

--- In tuning@y..., "monz" <joemonz@y...> wrote:

> (None of this is published yet. It's OT anyway... until I
> get my MIDI-file of it redone into meantone, which I just
> found out Mahler preferred.)

Pointless question: Are you going to use 1/4-comma meantone, 7/26-
comma meantone, or . . . ? I've been reading that a large number of
instructors and theorists in the 18th century favored 1/6-comma
meantone (not specifying whether the comma was syntonic or
Pythagorean), or essentially 55-tET, for free-pitched instruments.
Mozart clearly taught according to a meantone scheme, though there is
no record of him ever specifying the exact amount of tempering he
desired (and in fact his scores show that he did allow for enharmonic
equivalence occasionally).

> Mary wrote:
>
>> Also there is a concept of the dreambody which works for me. If you
>> let yourself imitate one of the positions your body was in while you
>> were dreaming - ie going into that posture often times that will
>> promote recall of the whole dream.

THAT¹S chilling.
This one I've never heard of.
It makes so much sense though.
I'm afraid to move.

I sense a connection between this
and the fetal position.
I can't think through it though.

--- In tuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_23431.html#23555

> --- In tuning@y..., "monz" <joemonz@y...> wrote:
>
> > (None of this is published yet. It's OT anyway... until I
> > get my MIDI-file of it redone into meantone, which I just
> > found out Mahler preferred.)
>
> Pointless question: Are you going to use 1/4-comma meantone,
> 7/26-comma meantone, or . . . ? I've been reading that a
> large number of instructors and theorists in the 18th
> century favored 1/6-comma meantone (not specifying whether
> the comma was syntonic or Pythagorean), or essentially 55-tET,
> for free-pitched instruments. Mozart clearly taught according
> to a meantone scheme, though there is no record of him ever
> specifying the exact amount of tempering he desired (and
> in fact his scores show that he did allow for enharmonic
> equivalence occasionally).

Hey, Paul, not a pointless question at all!
In fact, quite a good one!

It's really too bad you weren't able to see my Microfest
presentation, where I covered what little info I have that
bears on this.

It was when I was finished my lecture that Warren Burt
mentioned to me that Schoenberg recalled Mahler telling him
once that "it's too bad we've accepted equal temperament,
because a lot of meantone's harmonic possibilities have
been lost".

I began my presentation with Josef Petzval, who was a
scientist whose work apparently bore many similarities to
that of Christiaan Huyghens. Like Huyghens, Petzval worked
mostly in optics, and his invention of an anastigmatic lens
led eventually to the development of the modern camera.

Anyway, also like Huyghens (who - my guess - was probably
the source for it), Petzval advocated 31-tET in his lectures
at the University of Vienna beginning in the 1860s. Petzval
did have a piano tuned to it, and also an instrument he
invented, called a "guitharp".

(This information comes from Möllendorff's book, which I
translated for my presentation. Barbara Hero, who was
at Microfest and saw my lecture, had with her a book sponsored
by list member Jan Haluska, in which Jan wrote an article
about Petzval's tuning. She gave me the book, but I haven't
had time to take more than a cursory glance at it yet.)

Well... there's a bit of a connection here, because Mahler
attended the Vienna Conservatory and the University of Vienna
from 1875 to 1880.

So the only thread I can trace here is that Mahler must have
been exposed to Petzval's 31-tET demonstrations, and Petzval
more than likely summarized how closely 31-tET resembles
1/4-comma meantone.

I've remarked here before I ever knew any of this Petzval
stuff that my hunch was that Mahler would not have preferred
12-tET anyway, because he worked almost exclusively with
orchestras after leaving the University, and they are
infinitely adjustable in intonation.

So knowing that Petzval demonstrated 31-tET at Vienna ties
all of this together quite nicely. I'm pretty sure that
the meantone Mahler would have preferred would have been
1/4-comma. I know quite a lot about his life, and there's
no information anywhere that he would have even known about
any other kind of tuning, other than 12-tET.

So my retuning of Mahler's work would definitely be based on
1/4-comma meantone.

After 1904, when he became quite close with Schoenberg,
Mahler probably did consider 12-tET in a bit of a different
light, due to the latter's influence.

But as I demonstrated at Microfest, even Schoenberg did not
definitely reject 1/4-tones until 1909 in his own work, and
even in the original 1911 edition of his _Harmonielehre_ he
still speaks very favorably about microtonality. It wasn't
until Schoenberg's development of the 12-Tone Method in the
early 1920s that he became a staunch advocate of 12-EDO tuning.

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"