Re: [tuning] Scordatura

Hello there
i frequently play scordatura (sp?) on my violin ..if you can call what i do
playing..but
beyond some biber stuff i have... can any of you folks point a gentlemen to
some scordatura nuggetry??

Pat Pagano, Director
South East Just Intonation Society
http://indians.australians.com/meherbaba/
http://www.screwmusicforever.com/SHREESWIFT/

I guess you know the most famous one:
Saint Saens' Danse Macabre: g-d'-a' eb'

----- Original Message -----
From: "shreeswifty" <ppagano@bellsouth.net>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 6:50 PM
Subject: Re: [tuning] Scordatura

> Hello there
> i frequently play scordatura (sp?) on my violin ..if you can call what i
do
> playing..but
> beyond some biber stuff i have... can any of you folks point a gentlemen
to
> some scordatura nuggetry??
>
> Pat Pagano, Director
> South East Just Intonation Society
> http://indians.australians.com/meherbaba/
> http://www.screwmusicforever.com/SHREESWIFT/
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
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>
>
>

--- In tuning@y..., "shreeswifty" <ppagano@b...> wrote:
/tuning/topicId_21928.html#21928

> Hello there
> i frequently play scordatura (sp?) on my violin ..if you can call
what i do playing..but
> beyond some biber stuff i have... can any of you folks point a
gentlemen to some scordatura nuggetry??

Maybe Ornette Coleman??

________ _____ _ _____
Joseph Pehrson

mmmmmm a 7/6 on top ...yummy
got any more?

Pat Pagano, Director
South East Just Intonation Society
http://indians.australians.com/meherbaba/
http://www.screwmusicforever.com/SHREESWIFT/
----- Original Message -----
From: Kees van Prooijen <kees@dnai.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 9:57 PM
Subject: Re: [tuning] Scordatura

> I guess you know the most famous one:
> Saint Saens' Danse Macabre: g-d'-a' eb'
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "shreeswifty" <ppagano@bellsouth.net>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 6:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [tuning] Scordatura
>
>
> > Hello there
> > i frequently play scordatura (sp?) on my violin ..if you can call what i
> do
> > playing..but
> > beyond some biber stuff i have... can any of you folks point a gentlemen
> to
> > some scordatura nuggetry??
> >
> > Pat Pagano, Director
> > South East Just Intonation Society
> > http://indians.australians.com/meherbaba/
> > http://www.screwmusicforever.com/SHREESWIFT/
> >
> >
> > You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> > email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> > tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> > tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - unsubscribe from the tuning
group.
> > tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - put your email message delivery on
hold
> for the tuning group.
> > tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to daily
digest
> mode.
> > tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to individual
> emails.
> > tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
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on 4/30/01 10:07 PM, tuning@yahoogroups.com at tuning@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> From: "shreeswifty" <ppagano@bellsouth.net>
> Subject: Re: Scordatura
>
> Hello there
> i frequently play scordatura (sp?) on my violin ..if you can call what i do
> playing..but
> beyond some biber stuff i have... can any of you folks point a gentlemen to
> some scordatura nuggetry??

In Appalachian fiddling (which is about as close as I get to actually
playing the violin) there's a number of cross-tunings found in traditional
music. The most common ones I know of are (low to high) AEAE or GDGD,
sometimes called bagpipes tuning, also GDAD, ADAE, ADAD, DDAD (yes, the G
string is tuned down to D an octave below the third string, this tuning is
used for Bonapartes' Retreat).

There's a really beautiful scordatura in klezmer violin that involves
restringing and set up of your violin. Minor surgery, if you will. It's
called 'tsvay strunes', roughly that means two strings. You put a D string
in place of the A, file an extra notch in the nut really close to the high
E, tune the D to E an octave below the high E and play 'unison' melodies on
the two octave strings together. I am not sure what is put in place of the
normal D string, I think there's a variety of lower string configurations. I
believe this style can be heard in gypsy violin as well.

Enjoy!

Seth

--
Seth Austen

http://www.sethausten.com
emails: seth@sethausten.com
klezmusic@earthlink.net

Cat hair is a wonderful compliment to any outfit (particularly gig clothes)

I'm afraid not. This one popped up in a (Dutch) music theory book.
I think in his 4th Mahler prescribed a scordatura. Monz might know more
about that.
----- Original Message -----
From: "shreeswifty" <ppagano@bellsouth.net>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 7:44 PM
Subject: Re: [tuning] Scordatura

> mmmmmm a 7/6 on top ...yummy
> got any more?
>
> Pat Pagano, Director
> South East Just Intonation Society
> http://indians.australians.com/meherbaba/
> http://www.screwmusicforever.com/SHREESWIFT/
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Kees van Prooijen <kees@dnai.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 9:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [tuning] Scordatura
>
>
> > I guess you know the most famous one:
> > Saint Saens' Danse Macabre: g-d'-a' eb'
> >

shreeswifty wrote:

> Hello there
> i frequently play scordatura (sp?) on my violin ..if you can call what i do
> playing..but
> beyond some biber stuff i have... can any of you folks point a gentlemen to
> some scordatura nuggetry??

Yes Mr Swiftybhai I have a suggestion
if you look at the folk fiddle music of
Norway you will find a fiddle style called
Hardinger (?) or something like that it is
basically a sympathetic string thing and
very beautiful the great Shetland fiddler
Aly Bain has done stuff with the scordaturas of this style.

Alison/shreeswifty!
recommended
Norway: Fiddle music from Adger Unesco/Auvidus D8093

Alison Monteith wrote:

> shreeswifty wrote:
>
> > Hello there
> > i frequently play scordatura (sp?) on my violin ..if you can call what i do
> > playing..but
> > beyond some biber stuff i have... can any of you folks point a gentlemen to
> > some scordatura nuggetry??
>
> Yes Mr Swiftybhai I have a suggestion
> if you look at the folk fiddle music of
> Norway you will find a fiddle style called
> Hardinger (?) or something like that it is
> basically a sympathetic string thing and
> very beautiful the great Shetland fiddler
> Aly Bain has done stuff with the scordaturas of this style.
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
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> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - unsubscribe from the tuning group.
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> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

--- In tuning@y..., Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@w...> wrote:
>
..............
>
> Yes Mr Swiftybhai I have a suggestion

Hi Alison, in Gujarat [India], the suffix "bhai" is added to the name
of an elderly male as a sign of respect. "Bhai" is used in the state
of Punjab also. Did you mean Gujarati bhai or Punjabi bhai?!!

Regards,
Haresh.

Thanks alison
i shall check the reference
i have been playin g-d-a-a for a while and sometimes tuning the highest a to
a 17/16 or a 28/27 above the 3rd string
having the unisons really lends to the illustration of smaller intervals
Pat Pagano, Director
South East Just Intonation Society
http://indians.australians.com/meherbaba/
http://www.screwmusicforever.com/SHREESWIFT/
----- Original Message -----
From: Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@which.net>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: [tuning] Scordatura

>
>
> shreeswifty wrote:
>
> > Hello there
> > i frequently play scordatura (sp?) on my violin ..if you can call what i
do
> > playing..but
> > beyond some biber stuff i have... can any of you folks point a gentlemen
to
> > some scordatura nuggetry??
>
> Yes Mr Swiftybhai I have a suggestion
> if you look at the folk fiddle music of
> Norway you will find a fiddle style called
> Hardinger (?) or something like that it is
> basically a sympathetic string thing and
> very beautiful the great Shetland fiddler
> Aly Bain has done stuff with the scordaturas of this style.
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - unsubscribe from the tuning group.
> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - put your email message delivery on hold
for the tuning group.
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mode.
> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to individual
emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Kraig Grady wrote:

> Alison/shreeswifty!
> recommended
> Norway: Fiddle music from Adger Unesco/Auvidus D8093
>

Thanks

I'll have a trawl through my catalogues. There is something of a
renaissance of Scandinavian folk music going on just now. East Coast
Scots often look to their Viking heritage and so the music has found a
sympathetic audience. I've always detected a microtonal element in the
fiddle music, a kind of wildness which the Romantic might say has
something to do with the land of origin.

Best wishes

Haresh BAKSHI wrote:

>
> Hi Alison, in Gujarat [India], the suffix "bhai" is added to the name
> of an elderly male as a sign of respect. "Bhai" is used in the state
> of Punjab also. Did you mean Gujarati bhai or Punjabi bhai?!!
>
> Regards,
> Haresh.

I learned "bhai" and "ben" as male and female terms of respect or endearment from my Gujerati
brothers and sisters.

Hari Om Shanti

--- In tuning@y..., "shreeswifty" <ppagano@b...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_21928.html#21928

> Hello there i frequently play scordatura (sp?) on my violin
> ..if you can call what i do playing..but beyond some biber
> stuff i have... can any of you folks point a gentlemen to
> some scordatura nuggetry??

In addition to Saint-Saens, another great classic example of
scordatura is the 2nd movement from Mahler's 4th Symphony.

It's a scherzo, where a solo violin with all four strings
tuned a "whole-tone" sharp (A - E - b - f#) is supposed to
represent dancing with the devil.

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

--- In tuning@y..., Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@w...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_21928.html#21973

> I'll have a trawl through my catalogues. There is something of
> a renaissance of Scandinavian folk music going on just now.
> East Coast Scots often look to their Viking heritage and so
> the music has found a sympathetic audience. I've always detected
> a microtonal element in the fiddle music, a kind of wildness
> which the Romantic might say has something to do with the land
> of origin.

Alison, you might be very interested in my speculations a couple
of years ago that the paradigm shift in European tuning from
a 3- to a 5-limit basis might have originated with the Vikings.

See my long post
/tuning/topicId_3380.html#3380
about halfway down, and Margo Schulter's partial corroboration
of my ideas in Section 3 of her reply:
/tuning/topicId_3422.html#3422

Based on what I also know of the music and music-theory of
the Franks of about this same time (c. 800s AD), I believe
that "sweet major 3rds" may have been a distinctive feature
of music-making among Germanic peoples in general.

I was working several years ago on a paper which I never
finished, investigating the possibility of 5-limit tuning
in the infamous treatise _musica enchiriadis_:
http://www.music.indiana.edu/tml/9th-11th/MUSENCI_TEXT.html

If and when I ever return to this project, I'm sure I will be
able to say a lot more about Germanic 5-limit singing. I
suppose that as soon as I find time I can at least create a
webpage ("under construction") of what I have of this paper
so far.

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

--- In tuning@y..., "shreeswifty" <ppagano@b...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_21928.html#21928

> Hello there i frequently play scordatura (sp?) on my violin
> ..if you can call what i do playing..but beyond some biber
> stuff i have... can any of you folks point a gentlemen to
> some scordatura nuggetry??

In addition to Saint-Saens, another great classic example of
scordatura is the 2nd movement from Mahler's 4th Symphony.

It's a scherzo, where a solo violin with all four strings
tuned a "whole-tone" sharp (A - E - b - f#) is supposed to
represent dancing with the devil, which I suppose is actually
along the same lines as the story line behind _Danse Macabre_.

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

nice

Pat Pagano, Director
South East Just Intonation Society
http://indians.australians.com/meherbaba/
http://www.screwmusicforever.com/SHREESWIFT/
----- Original Message -----
From: monz <joemonz@yahoo.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 3:37 PM
Subject: [tuning] Re: Scordatura

> --- In tuning@y..., "shreeswifty" <ppagano@b...> wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_21928.html#21928
>
> > Hello there i frequently play scordatura (sp?) on my violin
> > ..if you can call what i do playing..but beyond some biber
> > stuff i have... can any of you folks point a gentlemen to
> > some scordatura nuggetry??
>
>
> In addition to Saint-Saens, another great classic example of
> scordatura is the 2nd movement from Mahler's 4th Symphony.
>
> It's a scherzo, where a solo violin with all four strings
> tuned a "whole-tone" sharp (A - E - b - f#) is supposed to
> represent dancing with the devil.
>
>
> -monz
> http://www.monz.org
> "All roads lead to n^0"
>
>
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - unsubscribe from the tuning group.
> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - put your email message delivery on hold
for the tuning group.
> tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to daily digest
mode.
> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to individual
emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Avatar Meher Baba Ki Jai!
Pat Pagano, Director
South East Just Intonation Society
http://indians.australians.com/meherbaba/
http://www.screwmusicforever.com/SHREESWIFT/
> I learned "bhai" and "ben" as male and female terms of respect or
endearment from my Gujerati
> brothers and sisters.
>
> Hari Om Shanti

On Wed, 02 May 2001 20:21:52 -0000 "monz" <joemonz@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> --- In tuning@y..., Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@w...> wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_21928.html#21973
>
> > I'll have a trawl through my catalogues. There is something of
> > a renaissance of Scandinavian folk music going on just now.
> > East Coast Scots often look to their Viking heritage and so
> > the music has found a sympathetic audience. I've always detected
> > a microtonal element in the fiddle music, a kind of wildness
> > which the Romantic might say has something to do with the land
> > of origin.
>
>
> Alison, you might be very interested in my speculations a couple
> of years ago that the paradigm shift in European tuning from
> a 3- to a 5-limit basis might have originated with the Vikings.

About six weeks ago I went to a small annual instrument-builders
exhibition at Marylhurst University, south of Portland, Oregon, near
where I live. I went expecting to get help realizing some of my JI
instrument designs, but found, instead, a rather cliquish (and
conservative) group of about 3 dozen luthiers and violin makers from
around the region. There was, however, one very interesting older man of
Norwegian descent, who builds Hardinger fiddles! They are quite
beautiful to look at, with inlaid fingerboards and ornate scrolls. I was
naturally intrigued by the sympathetic strings, so I asked him to play a
little. He apologized that playing was his weak point, but he plucked at
the strings nonetheless so that I could hear the sympathetic strings. I
then noticed that the fiddle was cross-tuned, and he proceeded to inform
me that are over twenty known Hardinger fiddle tunings, and it is not
uncommon for a fiddler to carry a case with four or five fiddles in
different tunings!

As a cellist, I explained to him, I have experimented with cross tunings
and learning fiddle techniques, but I found on the one hand, that I broke
too many strings (which average $90 a set, not to mention my bridge was
flexing from frequent retunings), and on the other hand that the reach up
to the fifth with the fourth finger is too difficult on the cello. If
you attempt it as a string crossing, it throws off the natural rhythms of
the melodies, over 85% which are meant to played in first position on
the violin (BTW I have started to make some screeching progress with
fiddle tunes in thumb position because this is more like the scale of the
violin). To this he answered, "I guess you'll just have to buy one of my
fiddles," which, needless to say, I couldn't afford.

As it happens, I ran into him and his wife a week later as parents of the
groom at a wedding I was working at as church custodian. They were in
full, colorful Norwegian costume. I continued our discussion by
mentioning that another reason I had
attended was in hopes of seeing, and/or playing a Hutchins tenor or
baritone violin (do a search on "new violin family" as mentioned in the
"microtonalists revolt" thread a while back). We then talked about how
the conservatism of the musical establishment has marginalized these
instruments, in spite of the fact that they've been around since the
early sixties, and in spite of the fact that they are meant to fill in
the gaps that have existed in the violin family since the 18th century.
Etcetera... etcetera. I imagine they have come up on this list before.

This post is also in partial answer to Allison's of about a week ago,
where she suggested to learn the sound of JI intervals using a guitar
drone and voice. Well, I believe I have quite a good sense of the
lower-numbered ratios from singing, and playing the cello, an autoharp
that I altered (this may lead to another question to Hareesh later), and
a rudimentary djridoo and mouth bow that I built. However, I would like
to be sure exactly of the difference between, say 10/9 and 11/10, so I
won't stop until I have bought a decent sysex-capable MIDI keyboard (and
built my various instruments; hell, I probably won't stop after that,
either). I think that is also the only way to fully, and interactively
participate in some of the threads on this list.

Anon,
Kurt

--- In tuning@y..., "shreeswifty" <ppagano@b...> wrote:
> Avatar Meher Baba Ki Jai!
> Pat Pagano, Director
> South East Just Intonation Society
> http://indians.australians.com/meherbaba/
> http://www.screwmusicforever.com/SHREESWIFT/
> > I learned "bhai" and "ben" as male and female terms of respect or
> endearment from my Gujerati
> > brothers and sisters.
> >
> > Hari Om Shanti >>>>>>>>>>

Hello "shreeswifty" and Alison -- two noble souls gracing the
Alternate Tuning Group ! In and through your recent postings you
have amazed me with your Universal Kindness towards one and all.

Meher Baba talked only through Silence. This is because he wanted to
convey to us what cannot be conveyed through any language on this
planet. In fact "meher" means compassion -- divine compassion, in
case of Baba.

Only by a totally tranquil mind does one destroy all action, good or
bad. Once there is peace, one abides in the Self and attains
everlasting bliss. That bliss is like a perfectly tuned drone. In its
backdrop are created all the scales, all the raga-s and all the
symphonies.

It is this bliss, Paul (message 21908), Jon (message 21924), David
(message #21962), Kurz, Monz, Dave, Robert, D. Stearns, referred to,
perhaps, when talking about breakthroughs and "pops".

To be able to hear the Voice of the Silence, we have to
attain "dharaNa" [intense contemplation] -- just "hold" there.
During one such dharaNa, some of the pundits in this Group will, one
day, find a generalization from which all the million tunings can be
derived, mathematically, logically, as well as usically.
"tathaastu" [May that happen]!

Regards,
Haresh.

As it turns out, the AFMM Ensemble will be in Bergen Norway in late May-early
June. The Hardinger fiddle is a beautiful instrument and with its ornate
colors and extra sympathetic strings. Most important in the playing is the
dancing of the feet. Players sit down and choreograph rhythms with their
feet while they play. I had the chance to hear and meet the master of the
instrument (who's name I conveniently can't recall) at an Ethnomusicology
Conference in New Jersey over a decade ago.

Norway has only 4 million people and it is mountainous. This has led to many
small pockets of Norwegian villages throughout the country that are quite
separated from other pockets, each developing their own tunings and styles.
It may be that there was more variety of tunings in Norway, proportionately,
than in much of the rest of Europe. I hope to have the chance to research
Norwegian tunings during this stay.

We will be performing Partch's music in an old Viking reception area, built
by King Hakon in 1240. The program will include Barstow, Dark Brother, A
Dream, a several smaller Li Po Songs.

Johnny Reinhard

Kurt S Nelson wrote:About six weeks ago I went to a small annual instrument-builders

> exhibition at Marylhurst University, south of Portland, Oregon, near
> where I live. I went expecting to get help realizing some of my JI
> instrument designs, but found, instead, a rather cliquish (and
> conservative) group of about 3 dozen luthiers and violin makers from
> around the region. There was, however, one very interesting older man of
> Norwegian descent, who builds Hardinger fiddles! They are quite
> beautiful to look at, with inlaid fingerboards and ornate scrolls. I was
> naturally intrigued by the sympathetic strings, so I asked him to play a
> little. He apologized that playing was his weak point, but he plucked at
> the strings nonetheless so that I could hear the sympathetic strings. I
> then noticed that the fiddle was cross-tuned, and he proceeded to inform
> me that are over twenty known Hardinger fiddle tunings, and it is not
> uncommon for a fiddler to carry a case with four or five fiddles in
> different tunings!
>
> As a cellist, I explained to him, I have experimented with cross tunings
> and learning fiddle techniques, but I found on the one hand, that I broke
> too many strings (which average $90 a set, not to mention my bridge was
> flexing from frequent retunings), and on the other hand that the reach up
> to the fifth with the fourth finger is too difficult on the cello. If
> you attempt it as a string crossing, it throws off the natural rhythms of
> the melodies, over 85% which are meant to played in first position on
> the violin (BTW I have started to make some screeching progress with
> fiddle tunes in thumb position because this is more like the scale of the
> violin). To this he answered, "I guess you'll just have to buy one of my
> fiddles," which, needless to say, I couldn't afford.
>
> As it happens, I ran into him and his wife a week later as parents of the
> groom at a wedding I was working at as church custodian. They were in
> full, colorful Norwegian costume. I continued our discussion by
> mentioning that another reason I had
> attended was in hopes of seeing, and/or playing a Hutchins tenor or
> baritone violin (do a search on "new violin family" as mentioned in the
> "microtonalists revolt" thread a while back). We then talked about how
> the conservatism of the musical establishment has marginalized these
> instruments, in spite of the fact that they've been around since the
> early sixties, and in spite of the fact that they are meant to fill in
> the gaps that have existed in the violin family since the 18th century.
> Etcetera... etcetera. I imagine they have come up on this list before.
>
> This post is also in partial answer to Allison's of about a week ago,
> where she suggested to learn the sound of JI intervals using a guitar
> drone and voice. Well, I believe I have quite a good sense of the
> lower-numbered ratios from singing, and playing the cello, an autoharp
> that I altered (this may lead to another question to Hareesh later), and
> a rudimentary djridoo and mouth bow that I built. However, I would like
> to be sure exactly of the difference between, say 10/9 and 11/10, so I
> won't stop until I have bought a decent sysex-capable MIDI keyboard (and
> built my various instruments; hell, I probably won't stop after that,
> either). I think that is also the only way to fully, and interactively
> participate in some of the threads on this list.
>
> Anon,
> Kurt

Yes, you can only go so far with limited time in learning to sing ratios using harmonic acoustic
instruments as drones. I, too, was tempted into using midi devices and simple applications to work
on ear training and recognition. But then I realised that I don't know how much time I have to
learn everything, so, being an optimist, I assumed that I have loads and took the organic road
again, singing to my drone. I look forward to building a mega monochord on which I can call up all
the ratios I want, and which will have for me a musical application.
Nice to hear from another traveller on the path, Kurt.

Best Wishes

Afmmjr@aol.com wrote:

> As it turns out, the AFMM Ensemble will be in Bergen Norway in late
> May-early
> June. The Hardinger fiddle is a beautiful instrument and with its
> ornate
> colors and extra sympathetic strings. Most important in the playing
> is the
> dancing of the feet. Players sit down and choreograph rhythms with
> their
> feet while they play.

Scott Skinner of Aberdeenshire, my homeland, was the master of
simultaneous fiddle and dance around the early 1900s. This is now a big
deal in Cape Breton fiddling with Natalie McMaster and others. BTW some
of the early Cape Breton fiddling is very slippery as regards tuning and
I'm sure would be a fertile field for research.

Best Wishes in Scandinavia.

Dear Aaron and Scordatura users,

Meanwhile I read the documentation of Scordatura. In the following I am briefly summarising what I understood. Please correct me if I misunderstood anything.

I understand that for the tuning you map the pitches of incoming MIDI note events (128 different values in total) to the corresponding entries in a tuning table. In addition, the channel of these note events can be used to select a tuning table. No other MIDI information is used to affect the tuning as defined by Scordatura (of course some MIDI instrument may interpret other MIDI information for somehow changing pitches). So, at maximum a Scordatura tuning supports 128x16=2048 different pitches at a time (e.g., 12x16=192 pitches per octave).

So, (a subset of) a JI notation like Sagittal, HEWM or Extended HE could be implemented as follows. A first tuning table implements Pythagorean tuning, 2 (4) further tables implement the Pythagorean tuning transposed by 1 (2) syntonic commas up/down, 2 further transpose the Pythagorean tuning by one septimal comma up/down, further tables transpose by both one syntonic and one septimal comma up/down etc. (with more commas and all possible combinations we soon run out of our 16 channels :)

In the incoming MIDI notes (e.g., from a sequencer or music notation software), the JI microtonal accidentals for commas beyond 3-limit are then encoded as the channel information, while the note pitch encodes a Pythagorean nominal+accidental (from a chain of only 11 fifths in total, if we need more than we need explicit tuning tables for the Pythagorean accidentals as well). Multiple timbres can be encoded by streaming these notes via different MIDI Ports (16 in total, so at maximum 16 different timbres with the JI setup described above that uses channel information fully for encoding pitches). The tuned MIDI output of Scordatura could then in turn be routed, say, to multiple VST-instruments hosted by some sequencer.

If we can implement the JI meaning of such notations, then we can also implement ETs that can be represented by these notations, by tempering the tuning tables accordingly.

Did I understood that correctly?

Thank you!

Best,
Torsten

PS: If folks are interested, the setup above could also be implemented, e.g., by a Kontakt script, but I figure things are likely more convenient with Scordatura :)

PPS: In my current approach, I am using CC messages to transpose pitches by an amount specified by the CC message. While this approach is more flexible and more explicit, the downside when working with a sequencer is that every note consists of two MIDI events (a CC message for the tuning + the actual note) and CC messages are not displayed very suitably for tuning purposes.

On 17.02.2010, at 18:12, Aaron Andrew Hunt wrote:
> Hm, yes, a good point! Thanks very much Torsten. The wording should > be improved. I'll have to think on that.
> Yours,
> AAH
> =====
>
> On Feb 17, 2010, at 12:05 PM, Torsten Anders wrote:
>
>> Dear Aaron,
>>
>> On 17.02.2010, at 17:51, Torsten Anders wrote:
>>> On 17.02.2010, at 17:36, Torsten Anders wrote:
>>>> That is great, but AFAIK Scordatura only supports soundfonts
>>>
>>> I am just looking at the Scordatura documentation: I might have been
>>> wrong with that statement.
>>
>>
>> As you saw in my previous message, I just found out how flexible >> Scordatura actually is. I might be a good idea to slightly reword >> your Scordatura introduction at http://www.h-pi.com/>> SCRDsoftware.html. "SCORDATURA is a Mac OSX sound font software >> synthesizer ..." So far I always though you can only route MIDI >> into Scordatura and the actual sound synthesis is always using >> soundfonts. Because I found that rather limited I never actually >> looked deeper at this software.
>>
>> Just my 2 pence..
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Torsten
>>
>> --
>> Torsten Anders
>> Interdisciplinary Centre for Computer Music Research
>> University of Plymouth
>> Office: +44-1752-586219
>> Private: +44-1752-558917
>> http://strasheela.sourceforge.net
>> http://www.torsten-anders.de
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

Dear Aaron,

Thank you for your quick reply.

On 17.02.2010, at 22:47, Aaron Andrew Hunt wrote:
> On Feb 17, 2010, at 4:33 PM, Torsten Anders wrote:
>> I understand that for the tuning you map the pitches of incoming >> MIDI note events (128 different values in total) to the >> corresponding entries in a tuning table. In addition, the channel >> of these note events can be used to select a tuning table. No other >> MIDI information is used to affect the tuning as defined by >> Scordatura (of course some MIDI instrument may interpret other MIDI >> information for somehow changing pitches). So, at maximum a >> Scordatura tuning supports 128x16=2048 different pitches at a time >> (e.g., 12x16=192 pitches per octave).
>
> Yes, there are 2048 pitches at any one time per MasterPort. But note > that an unlimited number of tuning tables can be loaded at any time, > so the maximum number of notes is theoretically unlimited, using > note triggers for on-the-fly table switching.

Ah, so we have three pieces of information that Scordatura considers for tuning.

1) The pitch of a MIDI note to detune (for mapping to tuning table entry)
2) The channel of this MIDI note (for selected a tuning table for the current note)
3) The pitch of of a MIDI note that serves as a Tuning Table Trigger (for globally selecting tuning tables)

Two further questions on this matter. Is is possible that Tuning Table Triggers not only globally select a single tuning, but change the set of tuning tables that are selected by the channel (i.e. case 2)? Can Tuning Table Trigger notes be silent (e.g., when sending the Note-On message with velocity 0)?

If the answer to the two questions above is yes, then here is another idea of a Scordatura use case: you can implement Dynamic Temperaments (DT). The advantage compared with synthesizers like The Viking, and TransFormSynth is that (i) with Scordatura one can encode 2048 different note names at a time (accidentals encoded with MIDI channels, e.g., as described in previous message), and (ii) you can play it with any MIDI synthesizer/sampler that supports multiple channel pitch bend (any MIDI synth with a multi mode; omni mode is not suitable). Of course there are also disadvantages compared to these special DT synthesizers: you have to set up a large number of tuning tables upfront (but you only have to do that once), and the harmonic spectrum of the sound is not changed according to the changing temperament.

The implementation of DT is very strait-forward: for every temperament along the (quantised) continuum of generator values a tuning table (or set of tuning tables) must be prepared. In the course of a musical piece, the temperament (generator) can then be changed by sending silent Tuning Table Triggers.

Thank you!

Best wishes,
Torsten

PS: I sent a copy of this message to the tuning list.

PPS: Following are the replies I got privately from Aaron, in case someone else is interested to to encode extended JI with MIDI notes :) (forwarded with permission)

>> So, (a subset of) a JI notation like Sagittal, HEWM or Extended HE >> could be implemented with Scordatura as follows. A first tuning >> table implements Pythagorean tuning, 2 (4) further tables implement >> the Pythagorean tuning transposed by 1 (2) syntonic commas up/down, >> 2 further transpose the Pythagorean tuning by one septimal comma up/>> down, further tables transpose by both one syntonic and one >> septimal comma up/down etc. (with more commas and all possible >> combinations we soon run out of our 16 channels :)
>
> My, that is clever! Yes, I think so.

>> In the incoming MIDI notes (e.g., from a sequencer or music >> notation software), the JI microtonal accidentals for commas beyond >> 3-limit are then encoded as the channel information, while the note >> pitch encodes a Pythagorean nominal+accidental (from a chain of >> only 11 fifths in total, if we need more than we need explicit >> tuning tables for the Pythagorean accidentals as well). Multiple >> timbres can be encoded by streaming these notes via different MIDI >> Ports (16 in total, so at maximum 16 different timbres with the JI >> setup described above that uses channel information fully for >> encoding pitches). The tuned MIDI output of Scordatura could then >> in turn be routed, say, to multiple VST-instruments hosted by some >> sequencer.
>
> Right. But also you don't necessarily need to use different ports > for different timbres. It depends on the output you're looking for. > The MasterSynth window also allows a single port to be split into > various patches when a multitimbral soundset (like the Quicktime > Instruments) is used, each with its own patch settings (octave > duplications, MIDI pan, volume, modulation).
>
>> If we can implement the JI meaning of such notations, then we can >> also implement ETs that can be represented by these notations, by >> tempering the tuning tables accordingly.
>>
>> Did I understood that correctly?
>
> Yes. You've more than got it. And that's quite a clever and very > interesting idea you've got there. Please keep me posted on your > progress and if you run into some roadblock, just tell me.

--
Torsten Anders
Interdisciplinary Centre for Computer Music Research
University of Plymouth
Office: +44-1752-586219
Private: +44-1752-558917
http://strasheela.sourceforge.net
http://www.torsten-anders.de

From another Scordatura user (myself)...

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Feb 18, 2010, at 2:29 PM, Torsten Anders wrote:

> Dear Aaron,
>
> Thank you for your quick reply.
>
> On 17.02.2010, at 22:47, Aaron Andrew Hunt wrote:
>> On Feb 17, 2010, at 4:33 PM, Torsten Anders wrote:
>>> I understand that for the tuning you map the pitches of incoming
>>> MIDI note events (128 different values in total) to the
>>> corresponding entries in a tuning table. In addition, the channel
>>> of these note events can be used to select a tuning table. No other
>>> MIDI information is used to affect the tuning as defined by
>>> Scordatura (of course some MIDI instrument may interpret other MIDI
>>> information for somehow changing pitches). So, at maximum a
>>> Scordatura tuning supports 128x16=2048 different pitches at a time
>>> (e.g., 12x16=192 pitches per octave).
>>
>> Yes, there are 2048 pitches at any one time per MasterPort. But note
>> that an unlimited number of tuning tables can be loaded at any time,
>> so the maximum number of notes is theoretically unlimited, using
>> note triggers for on-the-fly table switching.
>

Scordatura is theoretically limited with 256 patches and 1280-voice
polyphony. The disclaimer is that, most systems will probably not
handle such capacity, but some state-of-the-art systems like Macbook
Pros will easily work with dozens of patches and hundreds of
simultaneous voices.

With this limitation in mind, you can realize immense multi-timbral
chords tuned to "anything" at one time using note-triggers at the far-
end of the MIDI pitch spectrum (I prefer the range between 0-8 and
97-127: 40 individual trigger notes corresponding to 40 different
tuning tables).

40 different tuning tables involving diverse pure-octave 12-tone
tunings would result in 480 distinct pitches per octave in one's
arsenal.

Maybe, in the future, tricks like using combination notes
(simultaneous multi-note triggers such as C-C# or D-Eb) to activate
more tuning tables could be implemented. What do you think Aaron Andrew?

> Ah, so we have three pieces of information that Scordatura considers
> for tuning.
>
> 1) The pitch of a MIDI note to detune (for mapping to tuning table
> entry)
> 2) The channel of this MIDI note (for selected a tuning table for
> the current note)
> 3) The pitch of of a MIDI note that serves as a Tuning Table
> Trigger (for globally selecting tuning tables)
>
> Two further questions on this matter. Is is possible that Tuning Table
> Triggers not only globally select a single tuning, but change the set
> of tuning tables that are selected by the channel (i.e. case 2)? Can
> Tuning Table Trigger notes be silent (e.g., when sending the Note-On
> message with velocity 0)?

I think using combination notes to access more tuning tables is a
great idea, if it works!

Yes, you can command the trigger note behaviour to be silent or not.
Maybe you like it to sound a pitch from the previous tuning table. You
can do that. Or perhaps you'd like to hear the pitch of the triggered
tuning table. You can do that too.

>
> If the answer to the two questions above is yes, then here is another
> idea of a Scordatura use case: you can implement Dynamic Temperaments
> (DT). The advantage compared with synthesizers like The Viking, and
> TransFormSynth is that (i) with Scordatura one can encode 2048
> different note names at a time (accidentals encoded with MIDI
> channels, e.g., as described in previous message), and (ii) you can
> play it with any MIDI synthesizer/sampler that supports multiple
> channel pitch bend (any MIDI synth with a multi mode; omni mode is not
> suitable). Of course there are also disadvantages compared to these
> special DT synthesizers: you have to set up a large number of tuning
> tables upfront (but you only have to do that once), and the harmonic
> spectrum of the sound is not changed according to the changing
> temperament.

I couldn't find anything on the internet on DT. Can you explain it
Torsten?

>
> The implementation of DT is very strait-forward: for every temperament
> along the (quantised) continuum of generator values a tuning table (or
> set of tuning tables) must be prepared. In the course of a musical
> piece, the temperament (generator) can then be changed by sending
> silent Tuning Table Triggers.
>

Is this a new concept by you?

> Thank you!
>
> Best wishes,
> Torsten
>
> PS: I sent a copy of this message to the tuning list.
>
> PPS: Following are the replies I got privately from Aaron, in case
> someone else is interested to to encode extended JI with MIDI notes :)
> (forwarded with permission)
>
>>> So, (a subset of) a JI notation like Sagittal, HEWM or Extended HE
>>> could be implemented with Scordatura as follows. A first tuning
>>> table implements Pythagorean tuning, 2 (4) further tables implement
>>> the Pythagorean tuning transposed by 1 (2) syntonic commas up/down,
>>> 2 further transpose the Pythagorean tuning by one septimal comma up/
>>> down, further tables transpose by both one syntonic and one
>>> septimal comma up/down etc. (with more commas and all possible
>>> combinations we soon run out of our 16 channels :)
>>
>> My, that is clever! Yes, I think so.
>
>
>>> In the incoming MIDI notes (e.g., from a sequencer or music
>>> notation software), the JI microtonal accidentals for commas beyond
>>> 3-limit are then encoded as the channel information, while the note
>>> pitch encodes a Pythagorean nominal+accidental (from a chain of
>>> only 11 fifths in total, if we need more than we need explicit
>>> tuning tables for the Pythagorean accidentals as well). Multiple
>>> timbres can be encoded by streaming these notes via different MIDI
>>> Ports (16 in total, so at maximum 16 different timbres with the JI
>>> setup described above that uses channel information fully for
>>> encoding pitches). The tuned MIDI output of Scordatura could then
>>> in turn be routed, say, to multiple VST-instruments hosted by some
>>> sequencer.
>>
>> Right. But also you don't necessarily need to use different ports
>> for different timbres. It depends on the output you're looking for.
>> The MasterSynth window also allows a single port to be split into
>> various patches when a multitimbral soundset (like the Quicktime
>> Instruments) is used, each with its own patch settings (octave
>> duplications, MIDI pan, volume, modulation).

I have managed to hook up Logic to Scordatura using an external
instrument and specifying a Scordatura Port, as described in the Help
file. But it appears you cannot get the notes to record pitch-bend
information and you cannot use the Logic library of sampled
instruments directly.

>>
>>> If we can implement the JI meaning of such notations, then we can
>>> also implement ETs that can be represented by these notations, by
>>> tempering the tuning tables accordingly.
>>>
>>> Did I understood that correctly?
>>
>> Yes. You've more than got it. And that's quite a clever and very
>> interesting idea you've got there. Please keep me posted on your
>> progress and if you run into some roadblock, just tell me.
>
>
> --
> Torsten Anders
> Interdisciplinary Centre for Computer Music Research
> University of Plymouth
> Office: +44-1752-586219
> Private: +44-1752-558917
> http://strasheela.sourceforge.net
> http://www.torsten-anders.de
>
>

Oz.

Dear Ozan,

Thanks for your reply and sorry for my delay.

From: tuning@yahoogroups.com [tuning@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ozan Yarman [ozanyarman@...]
Sent: 19 February 2010 07:00
> Maybe, in the future, tricks like using combination notes
> (simultaneous multi-note triggers such as C-C# or D-Eb) to activate
> more tuning tables could be implemented.

I don't quite understand what you mean by "combination notes". Do you mean tuning table triggers that change more than one tuning table at the same time?

> I couldn't find anything on the internet on DT. Can you explain it
> Torsten?

This has been discussed recently on this list. Please see the archive, e.g., the following two messages and their replies

/tuning/topicId_86071.html#86145?var=1&l=1

/tuning/topicId_86071.html#86328?var=1&l=1

> I have managed to hook up Logic to Scordatura using an external
> instrument and specifying a Scordatura Port, as described in the Help
> file. But it appears you cannot get the notes to record pitch-bend
> information and you cannot use the Logic library of sampled
> instruments directly.

You mean, because Scordatura encodes microtonal pitches with pitchbend it overwrite the pitchbend messages of the incoming MIDI events?

Concerning the Logic library: I remember vagues that Logic's sampler does not support multi-mode, in contrast to other high-end samplers.

Thank you!

Best
Torsten

> --
> Torsten Anders
> Interdisciplinary Centre for Computer Music Research
> University of Plymouth
> Office: +44-1752-586219
> Private: +44-1752-558917
> http://strasheela.sourceforge.net
> http://www.torsten-anders.de

Dear Torsten,

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Feb 21, 2010, at 1:13 AM, Torsten Anders wrote:

> Dear Ozan,
>
> Thanks for your reply and sorry for my delay.
>

That's quite alright.

> From: tuning@yahoogroups.com [tuning@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> Ozan Yarman [ozanyarman@...]
> Sent: 19 February 2010 07:00
>> Maybe, in the future, tricks like using combination notes
>> (simultaneous multi-note triggers such as C-C# or D-Eb) to activate
>> more tuning tables could be implemented.
>
> I don't quite understand what you mean by "combination notes". Do
> you mean tuning table triggers that change more than one tuning
> table at the same time?
>

I mean, assigning two MIDI notes played at the same time as additional
triggers for accessing further tuning tables. Remember that I said I
prefer the range between 0-8 and 97-127, totalling 40 individual
trigger notes. This register is beyond the far left and far right of
an ordinary 88-key MIDI keyboard and ordinarily not accessible unlessyou can octave-transpose on the MIDI keyboard or your DAW. The
register in question is out of reach and extraneous for most music-
making situations. Now, 40 triggers means 40 tuning table switches.
If, however, you were given the option of assigning, say combination
notes such as 0+1, 0+2, 0+3, etc... as additional tuning table
triggers, you would have 780 combinations by twos:

Combinations without repetition (n=40, r=2)
{0,1} {0,2} {0,3} {0,4} {0,5} {0,6} {0,7} {0,8} {0,97} {0,98} {0,99}
{0,100} {0,101} {0,102} {0,103} {0,104} {0,105} {0,106} {0,107}
{0,108} {0,109} {0,110} {0,111} {0,112} {0,113} {0,114} {0,115}
{0,116} {0,117} {0,118} {0,119} {0,120} {0,121} {0,122} {0,123}
{0,124} {0,125} {0,126} {0,127} {1,2} {1,3} {1,4} {1,5} {1,6} {1,7}
{1,8} {1,97} {1,98} {1,99} {1,100} {1,101} {1,102} {1,103} {1,104}
{1,105} {1,106} {1,107} {1,108} {1,109} {1,110} {1,111} {1,112}
{1,113} {1,114} {1,115} {1,116} {1,117} {1,118} {1,119} {1,120}
{1,121} {1,122} {1,123} {1,124} {1,125} {1,126} {1,127} {2,3} {2,4}{2,5} {2,6} {2,7} {2,8} {2,97} {2,98} {2,99} {2,100} {2,101} {2,102}
{2,103} {2,104} {2,105} {2,106} {2,107} {2,108} {2,109} {2,110}
{2,111} {2,112} {2,113} {2,114} {2,115} {2,116} {2,117} {2,118}
{2,119} {2,120} {2,121} {2,122} {2,123} {2,124} {2,125} {2,126}
{2,127} {3,4} {3,5} {3,6} {3,7} {3,8} {3,97} {3,98} {3,99} {3,100}
{3,101} {3,102} {3,103} {3,104} {3,105} {3,106} {3,107} {3,108}
{3,109} {3,110} {3,111} {3,112} {3,113} {3,114} {3,115} {3,116}
{3,117} {3,118} {3,119} {3,120} {3,121} {3,122} {3,123} {3,124}
{3,125} {3,126} {3,127} {4,5} {4,6} {4,7} {4,8} {4,97} {4,98} {4,99}
{4,100} {4,101} {4,102} {4,103} {4,104} {4,105} {4,106} {4,107}
{4,108} {4,109} {4,110} {4,111} {4,112} {4,113} {4,114} {4,115}
{4,116} {4,117} {4,118} {4,119} {4,120} {4,121} {4,122} {4,123}
{4,124} {4,125} {4,126} {4,127} {5,6} {5,7} {5,8} {5,97} {5,98} {5,99}
{5,100} {5,101} {5,102} {5,103} {5,104} {5,105} {5,106} {5,107}
{5,108} {5,109} {5,110} {5,111} {5,112} {5,113} {5,114} {5,115}
{5,116} {5,117} {5,118} {5,119} {5,120} {5,121} {5,122} {5,123}
{5,124} {5,125} {5,126} {5,127} {6,7} {6,8} {6,97} {6,98} {6,99}
{6,100} {6,101} {6,102} {6,103} {6,104} {6,105} {6,106} {6,107}
{6,108} {6,109} {6,110} {6,111} {6,112} {6,113} {6,114} {6,115}{6,116} {6,117} {6,118} {6,119} {6,120} {6,121} {6,122} {6,123}
{6,124} {6,125} {6,126} {6,127} {7,8} {7,97} {7,98} {7,99} {7,100}
{7,101} {7,102} {7,103} {7,104} {7,105} {7,106} {7,107} {7,108}
{7,109} {7,110} {7,111} {7,112} {7,113} {7,114} {7,115} {7,116}
{7,117} {7,118} {7,119} {7,120} {7,121} {7,122} {7,123} {7,124}
{7,125} {7,126} {7,127} {8,97} {8,98} {8,99} {8,100} {8,101} {8,102}
{8,103} {8,104} {8,105} {8,106} {8,107} {8,108} {8,109} {8,110}
{8,111} {8,112} {8,113} {8,114} {8,115} {8,116} {8,117} {8,118}
{8,119} {8,120} {8,121} {8,122} {8,123} {8,124} {8,125} {8,126}
{8,127} {97,98} {97,99} {97,100} {97,101} {97,102} {97,103} {97,104}
{97,105} {97,106} {97,107} {97,108} {97,109} {97,110} {97,111}
{97,112} {97,113} {97,114} {97,115} {97,116} {97,117} {97,118}
{97,119} {97,120} {97,121} {97,122} {97,123} {97,124} {97,125}
{97,126} {97,127} {98,99} {98,100} {98,101} {98,102} {98,103} {98,104}
{98,105} {98,106} {98,107} {98,108} {98,109} {98,110} {98,111}
{98,112} {98,113} {98,114} {98,115} {98,116} {98,117} {98,118}
{98,119} {98,120} {98,121} {98,122} {98,123} {98,124} {98,125}
{98,126} {98,127} {99,100} {99,101} {99,102} {99,103} {99,104}
{99,105} {99,106} {99,107} {99,108} {99,109} {99,110} {99,111}
{99,112} {99,113} {99,114} {99,115} {99,116} {99,117} {99,118}
{99,119} {99,120} {99,121} {99,122} {99,123} {99,124} {99,125}
{99,126} {99,127} {100,101} {100,102} {100,103} {100,104} {100,105}
{100,106} {100,107} {100,108} {100,109} {100,110} {100,111} {100,112}
{100,113} {100,114} {100,115} {100,116} {100,117} {100,118} {100,119}
{100,120} {100,121} {100,122} {100,123} {100,124} {100,125} {100,126}
{100,127} {101,102} {101,103} {101,104} {101,105} {101,106} {101,107}
{101,108} {101,109} {101,110} {101,111} {101,112} {101,113} {101,114}
{101,115} {101,116} {101,117} {101,118} {101,119} {101,120} {101,121}
{101,122} {101,123} {101,124} {101,125} {101,126} {101,127} {102,103}
{102,104} {102,105} {102,106} {102,107} {102,108} {102,109} {102,110}
{102,111} {102,112} {102,113} {102,114} {102,115} {102,116} {102,117}
{102,118} {102,119} {102,120} {102,121} {102,122} {102,123} {102,124}
{102,125} {102,126} {102,127} {103,104} {103,105} {103,106} {103,107}
{103,108} {103,109} {103,110} {103,111} {103,112} {103,113} {103,114}
{103,115} {103,116} {103,117} {103,118} {103,119} {103,120} {103,121}
{103,122} {103,123} {103,124} {103,125} {103,126} {103,127} {104,105} {104,106} {104,107} {104,108} {104,109} {104,110} {104,111} {104,112}
{104,113} {104,114} {104,115} {104,116} {104,117} {104,118} {104,119}
{104,120} {104,121} {104,122} {104,123} {104,124} {104,125} {104,126}
{104,127} {105,106} {105,107} {105,108} {105,109} {105,110} {105,111}
{105,112} {105,113} {105,114} {105,115} {105,116} {105,117} {105,118}
{105,119} {105,120} {105,121} {105,122} {105,123} {105,124} {105,125}
{105,126} {105,127} {106,107} {106,108} {106,109} {106,110} {106,111}
{106,112} {106,113} {106,114} {106,115} {106,116} {106,117} {106,118}
{106,119} {106,120} {106,121} {106,122} {106,123} {106,124} {106,125}
{106,126} {106,127} {107,108} {107,109} {107,110} {107,111} {107,112}
{107,113} {107,114} {107,115} {107,116} {107,117} {107,118} {107,119}
{107,120} {107,121} {107,122} {107,123} {107,124} {107,125} {107,126}
{107,127} {108,109} {108,110} {108,111} {108,112} {108,113} {108,114}
{108,115} {108,116} {108,117} {108,118} {108,119} {108,120} {108,121}
{108,122} {108,123} {108,124} {108,125} {108,126} {108,127} {109,110}
{109,111} {109,112} {109,113} {109,114} {109,115} {109,116} {109,117}
{109,118} {109,119} {109,120} {109,121} {109,122} {109,123} {109,124}
{109,125} {109,126} {109,127} {110,111} {110,112} {110,113} {110,114}
{110,115} {110,116} {110,117} {110,118} {110,119} {110,120} {110,121}
{110,122} {110,123} {110,124} {110,125} {110,126} {110,127} {111,112}
{111,113} {111,114} {111,115} {111,116} {111,117} {111,118} {111,119}
{111,120} {111,121} {111,122} {111,123} {111,124} {111,125} {111,126}
{111,127} {112,113} {112,114} {112,115} {112,116} {112,117} {112,118}
{112,119} {112,120} {112,121} {112,122} {112,123} {112,124} {112,125}
{112,126} {112,127} {113,114} {113,115} {113,116} {113,117} {113,118} {113,119} {113,120} {113,121} {113,122} {113,123} {113,124} {113,125}
{113,126} {113,127} {114,115} {114,116} {114,117} {114,118} {114,119}
{114,120} {114,121} {114,122} {114,123} {114,124} {114,125} {114,126}
{114,127} {115,116} {115,117} {115,118} {115,119} {115,120} {115,121}
{115,122} {115,123} {115,124} {115,125} {115,126} {115,127} {116,117}
{116,118} {116,119} {116,120} {116,121} {116,122} {116,123} {116,124}
{116,125} {116,126} {116,127} {117,118} {117,119} {117,120} {117,121}
{117,122} {117,123} {117,124} {117,125} {117,126} {117,127} {118,119}
{118,120} {118,121} {118,122} {118,123} {118,124} {118,125} {118,126}
{118,127} {119,120} {119,121} {119,122} {119,123} {119,124} {119,125}
{119,126} {119,127} {120,121} {120,122} {120,123} {120,124} {120,125}
{120,126} {120,127} {121,122} {121,123} {121,124} {121,125} {121,126}
{121,127} {122,123} {122,124} {122,125} {122,126} {122,127} {123,124}
{123,125} {123,126} {123,127} {124,125} {124,126} {124,127} {125,126}
{125,127} {126,127}

These combination notes plus 40 single note tuning table triggers
would yield instantaneous access to 820 different tunings! Just the
ability to tune the regular 88-keys would result in 72160 distinct
pitches on the whole in one Scordatura project. With only 40 trigger
notes (for I'd hate to use a trigger note "underfoot") we had access
to only 3520 distinct pitches on the whole. With dual trigger notes,
the pitch universe is broadened by 20x. Therefore, with just 88 keys
and 80-note maximum polyphony per port, we would have the means to
construct immense microtonal chords with "infinitesimal" pitch
inflexions utilizing at least 16 different timbres. You could increase
the timbres by reducing the polyphony load per patch group, and then
you would have double or triple the timbres. Can any microtonalist ask
for more?

>> I couldn't find anything on the internet on DT. Can you explain it
>> Torsten?
>
> This has been discussed recently on this list. Please see the
> archive, e.g., the following two messages and their replies
>
> /tuning/topicId_86071.html#86145?var=1&l=1
>
> /tuning/topicId_86071.html#86328?var=1&l=1
>

There is mention of dynamic tonality there, not dynamic temperaments.
Are you using them synonymously?

>> I have managed to hook up Logic to Scordatura using an external
>> instrument and specifying a Scordatura Port, as described in the Help
>> file. But it appears you cannot get the notes to record pitch-bend
>> information and you cannot use the Logic library of sampled
>> instruments directly.
>
> You mean, because Scordatura encodes microtonal pitches with
> pitchbend it overwrite the pitchbend messages of the incoming MIDI
> events?
>

I mean, the midi notes I recorded into the Logic Pro arrange window
did not contain any pitch bend information. Possibly, I made a mistake
somewhere.

> Concerning the Logic library: I remember vagues that Logic's sampler
> does not support multi-mode, in contrast to other high-end samplers.
>

Multi-mode meaning what Scordatura does: Open a multi-port and assign
seperate instrument samples to every channel. No, Logic cannot do
that. At least not the version I have, which is 8. Instead, you have
to specify a port and channel in Logic per Scordatura patch group.

> Thank you!
>
> Best
> Torsten
>
>> --
>> Torsten Anders
>> Interdisciplinary Centre for Computer Music Research
>> University of Plymouth
>> Office: +44-1752-586219
>> Private: +44-1752-558917
>> http://strasheela.sourceforge.net
>> http://www.torsten-anders.de

Cordially,
Oz.

Dear Ozan,

> > I don't quite understand what you mean by "combination notes".

> I mean, assigning two MIDI notes played at the same time as additional
> triggers for accessing further tuning tables.

OK, that makes sense now. However, if you actually want to use this encoding as some human-readable notation for microtonal music in a sequencer, than things get pretty hairy when arbitrary two-note combination represent a different tuning table.

> There is mention of dynamic tonality there, not dynamic temperaments.
> Are you using them synonymously?

Yes, I did that, sorry if that was confusing. I understood that actually the *temperament* is changing dynamically in this approach. In my understanding, changing the tonality would just mean modulation.

Best,
Torsten

--
Torsten Anders
Interdisciplinary Centre for Computer Music Research
University of Plymouth
http://strasheela.sourceforge.net
http://www.torsten-anders.de

✩ ✩ ✩
www.ozanyarman.com

On Feb 21, 2010, at 4:13 PM, Torsten Anders wrote:

> Dear Ozan,
>
>>> I don't quite understand what you mean by "combination notes".
>
>> I mean, assigning two MIDI notes played at the same time as
>> additional
>> triggers for accessing further tuning tables.
>
> OK, that makes sense now. However, if you actually want to use this
> encoding as some human-readable notation for microtonal music in a
> sequencer, than things get pretty hairy when arbitrary two-note
> combination represent a different tuning table.
>

AAH suggested some other method, which would not pose the problems
with the dyad triggers. We're communicating on that issue. The next
version of Scordatura is expected to surpass the version today in
terms of tuning control and advanced audio mixing.

Oz.