what's important

The ongoing, quite lively debate betwenn Reinhard/Szanto has got me
to thinking about what's important musically, what's not, and why. Of
course, I don't think it's an issue that can ever be proven, in a
scientific way, but it's interesting to reflect on. For example,
although I understand that Schoenberg's atonal breakthroughs are
important in the development of Western music, most of the music I've
heard in that system doesn't do anything for me in a positive way...it
doesn't touch me on those real deep emotional, spiritual levels that,
say, Bach (and many others) does. In fact, I've tried to listen to
Arnie's Violin Concerto over the years, and it's like a body without
blood...it's cold, remote, and lifeless. Yet, again, I know
intellectually that it's "important..." but, I don't enjoy listening to
it. So, it isn't important to me in a total way...only on the
intellectual side. I've never been a big fan of Partch's music,
either...I understand that his theories, his writings, and his
instrument construction were/are significant milestones in Western
music...yet, his music doesn't grab me down deep in any way. Thus, on a
spiritual/emotional level, his music is not important to me at all,
except as a demonstration of his theories...I admit I am somewhat amazed
at the amount of passion his music arouses in some circles. But, that's
ok...it's what makes life interesting, to be sure.
To me, important art is that which speaks to us on many levels at
once...the human, the spiritual, the creative, the deepest emotional
places, that which unites our humanity, in it's totality, with the
eternal, the unknowable, the awesomeness of being in this remarkable
Universe, knowing that we will soon pass on to...who knows?
And, I know that these are rather personal concepts, perceived by each
person in their own way, so perhaps these areas are not as easy to write
about as factual ideas, math and science...yet, these are the areas I
wish more folks on this forum would chat about. Sometimes, I feel this
list is just a bit dry...I'd like to hear more about what you all feel
about music/art/life, what moves you, what doesn't. That's why I do
enjoy it when folks get a bit passionate, and let their inner selves
come out...that's what's really interesting to me. Sam Phillips (Sun
records) said something about Howlin Wolf once that really touched
me..."This is where the soul of man never dies." And, 12 eq or 31st root
of 17, if music has that quality, then that's what makes it "important"
to me...Hstick

Neil,

It's funny that you wrote today, about music as it affects, because I
just yesterday had gotten an email from a person who knew Partch in
the very last year(s) of his life. It made me think of you
immediately:

"...i can't even breath or talk or listen to nature now without
hearing the music in such phenomena i once percieved as sound, thanks
to what Harry showed me!!! without a doubt, Harry Partch & Jimi
Hendrix were the two greatest influences upon my musical "microtonal"
perceptions... after their deaths, i was lost emotionally..."

Which only goes to show that everyone is so different. I know that
you've shared how much Hendrix meant to you, but apparently Partch
doesn't do it. Fair enough, I say.

--- In tuning@y..., "Neil Haverstick" <STICK@U...> wrote:
> Sam Phillips (Sun records) said something about Howlin Wolf once
> that really touched me..."This is where the soul of man never
> dies."

And during the last year of his life, one of the tapes that Partch
listened to most frequently was -- you guessed it -- Howlin' Wolf!

Best,
Jon

At 09:30 AM 4/20/01 -0600, you wrote:
> In fact, I've tried to listen to
>Arnie's Violin Concerto over the years, and it's like a body without
>blood...it's cold, remote, and lifeless. Yet, again, I know
>intellectually that it's "important..." but, I don't enjoy listening to
>it. So, it isn't important to me in a total way...only on the
>intellectual side.
Now, on that one I happen to agree, if only because, as with other music
that I find unaffecting, it simply doesn't connect with any other sensation
patterns I've stored up. I suppose that if I listened to it enough times
and in enough situations that involved, say, great weather, good food, good
love or something, I might build up some sort of associations or "pattern
recognition" that would give meaning to the experience. But I'll never know
as the piece itself just doesn't attract me enough to volunteer constant
listening. For that matter, I can say the same for all those Stamitz guys
in the early Manheim school. The stuff doesn't relate to anything alive in
my head, but I know that's just me and my head. I'm sure there are plenty
of folks who are well-versed in recent music who'd say the same of Xenakis,
for example. For me his music connects in myriad ways.
That's about as much as I can safely say as to what makes music click for
me. I'm convinced that there are those for whom music works as a thing in
and of itself, that is, their appreciation of it doesn't depend on further
association.
Any tuning that unequalizes the intervals is most welcome as all the rest
of life sounds that way. Thus we get back to Arny's Violin Concerto and the
12-tone-row idiom in general: as I've occasionally posited, I think that
stuff would come very much alive for me if it were performed in any tuning
other than 12tet. I don't think it would matter which, just so long as all
the intervals had different characteristics. Equal temperament makes that
music just plain monochromatic (literally, of one color.) Subjecting it to,
say, Pythagorean tuning would give it the wildness it needs.
Jay

Of course, Jay, the Ives recording I'm presently working on will be in the
Pythagorean you have hoped for (and Ives preferred). I actually can did the
violin concerto (as Igor is reputed to), but the woodwind quintet...no
buyers. Heinz Holliger's quartertone/multiphonic woodwind quintet is
similarly needless dense (though chair squeaks made it memorable).

Next year, on Oct. 18th, the AFMM will perform Xenakis' "Anaktoria" without
conductor at the Washington Square Methodist Church in Greenwich Village.

Best, Johnny Reinhard

Jay! (see below)

Jay Williams wrote:

>
> Now, on that one I happen to agree, if only because, as with other music
> that I find unaffecting, it simply doesn't connect with any other sensation
> patterns I've stored up. I suppose that if I listened to it enough times
> and in enough situations that involved, say, great weather, good food, good
> love or something, I might build up some sort of associations or "pattern
> recognition" that would give meaning to the experience.

Slonimsky told me he tried playing pleasant music when his daughter wanted milk and played really
dissonant stuff after he gave her a bottle hoping to have her associate pleasure with dissonance.
The result he said is that she grew up with no interest in music.

I'm sure there are plenty

> of folks who are well-versed in recent music who'd say the same of Xenakis,
> for example. For me his music connects in myriad ways.

He is so well liked at the radio station I am at that you find his stuff only in the rock section.

>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

In a message dated 4/20/01 2:02:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
kraiggrady@anaphoria.com writes:

> The result he said is that she grew up with no interest in music.
>

Actually, Kraig, Electra does like music. She was quite receptive following
the premiere of my Cello Concerto "Odysseus," which is finally coming out on
the PITCH label. Maybe Slonimsky meant she didn't go into music...hmn?

Johnny Reinhard

Johnny!
Glad to here that she like your Concerto and I want to know if it
was dissonant or not! :)
It is hard to tell after 30 years of memory (1970) but it seem like
what you say appears to be the case

Afmmjr@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 4/20/01 2:02:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> kraiggrady@anaphoria.com writes:
>
>
>
>> The result he said is that she grew up with no interest in music.
>
> Actually, Kraig, Electra does like music. She was quite receptive
> following
> the premiere of my Cello Concerto "Odysseus," which is finally coming
> out on
> the PITCH label. Maybe Slonimsky meant she didn't go into
> music...hmn?

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

--- In tuning@y..., "Neil Haverstick" <STICK@U...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_21310.html#21310

> The ongoing, quite lively debate betwenn Reinhard/Szanto has got
me
> to thinking about what's important musically, what's not, and why.
Of course, I don't think it's an issue that can ever be proven, in a
> scientific way, but it's interesting to reflect on. For example,
> although I understand that Schoenberg's atonal breakthroughs are
> important in the development of Western music, most of the music
I've heard in that system doesn't do anything for me in a positive
way...it doesn't touch me on those real deep emotional, spiritual
levels that, say, Bach (and many others) does. In fact, I've tried to
listen to Arnie's Violin Concerto over the years,

Personally, Neil, I find the _Violin Concerto_ to NOT be a
particularly compelling example of Schoenberg's stuff. I have never
liked it...

But how about _Pierrot Lunaire_, the _Five Pieces for Orchestra_, the
_Book of the Hanging Gardens_, _Hergewechse_, the _Chamber Concerto_
Op. 9... _the _Piano Pieces_ Op. 11, and many other works...??

After all, every composer has a "dud" every once in a while!

_________ _____ _____ ____
Joseph Pehrson

Duchamp made the comment that an artist is someone who does things that others sometimes find
useful.
It is amazing if even a majority of someone's works others can find useful.

Often a "dud" can be a new or different step for an artist that is achieved better in latter
versions.

BTW Pierrot is just too long for me but find the Five Pieces for Orchestra kinda a musical
Kandinsky.
Didn't Arnie have as much humor as Jim Morrison

jpehrson@rcn.com wrote:

> After all, every composer has a "dud" every once in a while!

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

In a message dated 4/20/01 2:37:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
kraiggrady@anaphoria.com writes:

> Concerto and I want to know if it was dissonant or not! :)
>

polymicrotonal: 51 performers each in their own tuning.

Johnny Reinhard

I take this as a sign that Slonimsky experiment worked:)

Afmmjr@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 4/20/01 2:37:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> kraiggrady@anaphoria.com writes:
>
>
>
>> Concerto and I want to know if it was dissonant or not! :)
>
> polymicrotonal: 51 performers each in their own tuning.
>
> Johnny Reinhard

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

In a message dated 4/20/01 3:46:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
kraiggrady@anaphoria.com writes:

>

Well, not exactly. Polymicrotonality in this piece produced the sensation
that everything was harmonious, if not consonant. It's a peculiar effect,
wherein every single note played sounds right. No sound sounds out of tune,
misplaced, or even as a mistake. That's why I'm so glad all the players have
given an okay.

Johnny!

In TD 1244.12, Jay Williams said:
>The 12-tone-row idiom in general; equal temperament makes that
>music just plain monochromatic. Subjecting it to, say, Pythagorean tuning >would give it the wildness it needs.

My point of view is that dodecaphonic music is meant to demonstrate the limitations of 12-EDO.

-Kami ROUSSEAU
Still reading the TD... :)
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

While i am not up to speed on the thread, i do not think that playing in many different tunings matters as much as the fundamental frequency that you are using

Pat Pagano, Director
South East Just Intonation Society
http://indians.australians.com/meherbaba/
http://www.screwmusicforever.com/SHREESWIFT/
----- Original Message -----
From: Afmmjr@aol.com
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 4:13 PM
Subject: Re: [tuning] what's important

In a message dated 4/20/01 3:46:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
kraiggrady@anaphoria.com writes:

I take this as a sign that Slonimsky experiment worked:)

Well, not exactly. Polymicrotonality in this piece produced the sensation
that everything was harmonious, if not consonant. It's a peculiar effect,
wherein every single note played sounds right. No sound sounds out of tune,
misplaced, or even as a mistake. That's why I'm so glad all the players have
given an okay.

Johnny!
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Pat, it was a G. We had a giant glass bowl at the low G 1/1.

Johnny

--- In tuning@y..., "Neil Haverstick" <STICK@U...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_21310.html#21310

> ...
> although I understand that Schoenberg's atonal breakthroughs
> are important in the development of Western music, most of the
> music I've heard in that system doesn't do anything for me in
> a positive way...it doesn't touch me on those real deep
> emotional, spiritual levels that, say, Bach (and many others)
> does. In fact, I've tried to listen to Arnie's Violin Concerto
> over the years, and it's like a body without blood...it's cold,
> remote, and lifeless. Yet, again, I know intellectually that
> it's "important..." but, I don't enjoy listening to it. So, it
> isn't important to me in a total way...only on the
> intellectual side.
> ...
> To me, important art is that which speaks to us on many
> levels at once...the human, the spiritual, the creative, the
> deepest emotional places, that which unites our humanity, in
> it's totality, with the eternal, the unknowable, the awesomeness
> of being in this remarkable Universe, knowing that we will soon
> pass on to...who knows?
> ...
> Sam Phillips (Sun records) said something about Howlin Wolf once
> that really touched me..."This is where the soul of man never
> dies." And, 12 eq or 31st root of 17, if music has that quality,
> then that's what makes it "important" to me...Hstick

Hi Neil,

We already went over this off-list a couple of years ago.
Just thought I'd pass along a reminder to you, in case you now
have the time to give it a listen, and thought it would be good
to make it public this time, lest any readers here who are
unfamiliar with Schoenberg's work get unduly influenced by your
remarks. I invite them to follow my advice too.

It's quite possible that you heard a terrible performance of
his Violin Concerto, but in any case, that's never been one of
my favorites either. But PLEASE listen to a good performance
of _A Survivor From Warsaw_!

As Justin Wilson used to say, I GUAR-ON-TEE that it will move
you emotionally *at least* as much as Howlin Wolf!

All that stuff you say in the second paragraph I've quoted
was deeply important to Schoenberg, and if the performers are
capable of handling his sometimes extremely difficult music,
and performing the good pieces as well as they deserve to be
performed, you will be on the receiving end of a very deep
musical experience! _Warsaw_, if done right, is a great
starting point.

(Be sure to understand the text before listening.)

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

--- In tuning@y..., jpehrson@r... wrote:

/tuning/topicId_21310.html#21326

> Personally, Neil, I find the _Violin Concerto_ to NOT be a
> particularly compelling example of Schoenberg's stuff. I have
> never liked it...

Hey Joe, as you can see from a few posts ago, I agree.

> But how about _Pierrot Lunaire_, the _Five Pieces for Orchestra_,
> the _Book of the Hanging Gardens_, _Hergewechse_, the _Chamber
> Concerto_ Op. 9... _the _Piano Pieces_ Op. 11, and many other
> works...??

Neil, I can strongly recommend any of these pieces also. But
I note with amusement that they all date from my own favorite
period in Schoenberg's career: 1906-12. And one piece that
*must* be included in this group is the incredible _Erwartung_,
which I've been listening to daily for about the last month.

_A Survivor From Warsaw_ is much later, one of Schoenberg's
last works (1947). His heart stopped beating for a few minutes
in 1946, and after he was revived with injections directly into
his heart, he wrote a few really amazing pieces in which he
applied his 12-tone technique to the expressionistic style
of the pieces Joe recommends: his _String Trio_ (in which he
depicts his temporary death) and _A Survivor From Warsaw_
are my faves.

The 12-tone pieces he wrote before this (1920-45) pretty much
leave me cold too. He decided to become a neo-classicist of
sorts, using old-fashioned forms and styles combined with the
12-tone technique. To my ears, he was at his best as an
expressionist, whether early (1908-12) or late (1946-50).

And there's another reason why I chose _Warsaw_: it uses
_sprechstimme_, which therefore makes it microtonal and on-topic.

BTW, op. 9 is the _Chamber Symphony_, *not* _Concerto_.
(Berg was the one who wrote a _Chamber Concerto_.) It's sometimes
called the _1st Chamber Symphony_, because he did immediately
start a 2nd which was only finished in 1939 in Los Angeles.

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

--- In tuning@y..., "Kami ROUSSEAU" <kamikulture@h...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_21310.html#21336

> My point of view is that dodecaphonic music is meant to
> demonstrate the limitations of 12-EDO.

Hi Kami,

I think Schoenberg's point of view was that dodecaphonic music
is meant to *recognize* the limitations of 12-EDO, and to
demonstrate the release of the limitations that had been imposed
on it during its use in the "tonal" period.

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

--- In tuning@y..., "monz" <MONZ@J...> wrote:
>
/tuning/topicId_21310.html#21364

(Schoenberg):
>
> BTW, op. 9 is the _Chamber Symphony_, *not* _Concerto_.
> (Berg was the one who wrote a _Chamber Concerto_.) It's sometimes
> called the _1st Chamber Symphony_, because he did immediately
> start a 2nd which was only finished in 1939 in Los Angeles.
>

Thank so much Monz for this correction! What would we do if you
weren't around! And, the 2nd Chamber Symphony is ALSO one of my very
favorite pieces. Schoenberg had "returned" to tonality by that
time....

Sorry, still behind on the posts... more on Ben Johnston notation to
come... and busy weekend, American Composers Forum meeting today,
Sat...
________ _____ _____ ___
Joseph Pehrson

--- In tuning@y..., Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_21310.html#21327

> BTW Pierrot is just too long for me but find the Five Pieces for
Orchestra kinda a musical
> Kandinsky.
> Didn't Arnie have as much humor as Jim Morrison
>

Well, in my view the "Summer Morning by a Lake," Piece III is a
"Doors
of Perception...."

________ _______ _____ _____
Joseph Pehrson