The key of the song

Hello Tuners,

Is it ALWAYS true that whatever a song's final chord is also the name
of the key?

Thanks.
Haresh.

Haresh BAKSHI wrote:
>
> Hello Tuners,
>
> Is it ALWAYS true that whatever a song's final chord is also the name
> of the key?

No.

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm
* http://mp3.com/davidbeardsley

What the listener expects to be the final tone of a piece
of music is the key.

Manuel

At 08:31 AM 4/18/01 -0400, you wrote:
>
>
>Haresh BAKSHI wrote:
>>
>> Hello Tuners,
>>
>> Is it ALWAYS true that whatever a song's final chord is also the name
>> of the key?
In traditional music where a "key" is assumed that is generally true, but
especially in what, in Western culture is termed "classical" music, this
practice started falling apart about 100 years ago. In any case, the ear
knows when this is or is not true so definitely, and the musical reasons
are usually pretty obvious, that I don't think this is a matter of much
consideration anymore.
Jay
>

Although mostly true in common-practice music, not always true. In the
Baroque period, pieces sometimes end in the dominant of the following
movement. One of my students brought over a piece to analyze that he had
been given in his theory class: it was a short song by Schumann in which the
tonic did not appear at all!

Dante

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Haresh BAKSHI [mailto:hareshbakshi@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 8:23 AM
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [tuning] The key of the song
>
>
> Hello Tuners,
>
> Is it ALWAYS true that whatever a song's final chord is also the name
> of the key?
>
> Thanks.
> Haresh.
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
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--- In tuning@y..., "Rosati" <dante.interport@r...> wrote:
> Although mostly true in common-practice music, not always true. In
the
> Baroque period, pieces sometimes end in the dominant of the
following
> movement. One of my students brought over a piece to analyze that
he had
> been given in his theory class: it was a short song by Schumann in
which the
> tonic did not appear at all!
>
> Dante > > >

Hi Dante, the Schumann song, where the tonic does not simply appear,
is as interesting as the raga Marwa. Could you tell me whether and
how the tonic was implied? Do you happen to recollect the remaining
notes in the song? The tritone?

Thanks.
Haresh.

The tonic is implied by the sum total of the other chords and how they fit
into a key, especially the V chord being a dominant seventh. If you doodled
with chords like F, G7, a, e, d, etc but never played a "C" chord, it would
still sound like you were in the key of C. BTW, the notion of having a piece
in which the tonic never appears is about as "romantic" as you can get!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Haresh BAKSHI [mailto:hareshbakshi@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 12:20 PM
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [tuning] Re: The key of the song
>
>
> --- In tuning@y..., "Rosati" <dante.interport@r...> wrote:
> > Although mostly true in common-practice music, not always true. In
> the
> > Baroque period, pieces sometimes end in the dominant of the
> following
> > movement. One of my students brought over a piece to analyze that
> he had
> > been given in his theory class: it was a short song by Schumann in
> which the
> > tonic did not appear at all!
> >
> > Dante > > >
>
> Hi Dante, the Schumann song, where the tonic does not simply appear,
> is as interesting as the raga Marwa. Could you tell me whether and
> how the tonic was implied? Do you happen to recollect the remaining
> notes in the song? The tritone?
>
> Thanks.
> Haresh.
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - unsubscribe from the tuning group.
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> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to
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> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

--- In tuning@y..., "Rosati" <dante.interport@r...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_21239.html#21243

> One of my students brought over a piece to analyze that he had
> been given in his theory class: it was a short song by Schumann
> in which the tonic did not appear at all!

Hey Dante - Schoenberg would have been fascinated to know
about that one! He continually cites some of his early songs
(c. 1900 - 1907) as ones in which "the tonic does not appear
at all", in tracing his path toward the "atonality" which
appeared in 1908.

But he was always trying to find earlier examples, to illustrate
that he was an "evolutionary" and not a "revolutionary"; at one
place near the end of his _Harmonielehre_ he even apologizes for
citing so much of his own music and laments that he must do so
because there is nothing by others that will illustrate his
points.

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

Dante Rosati wrote:

> One of my students brought over a piece to analyze that he had
> been given in his theory class: it was a short song by Schumann in which the
> tonic did not appear at all!

Same is true of "Dreams" by Fleetwood Mac (often known by the first line of the chorus, "Thunder
only happens when it's rainin'"). It consists entirely of rocking back and forth between IV and V
except for a single vi chord in the bridge. Without a seventh in the V chord to decisively reveal
it as the dominant, how does one know that it's not going I-II-I-II instead? Easy - the melody
defines the key. Here the effect, rather than Romantic, is mystical.

One of my favorite non tonic endings is "Nobody Home" from Pink Floyd's album "The Wall." It ends
on the pseudo V7/vi (pseudo because earlier in the song it always resolves to the IV), truly giving
the feeling of getting no answer when one is desperately needed.

--
David J. Finnamore
Nashville, TN, USA
http://personal.bna.bellsouth.net/bna/d/f/dfin/index.html
--

--- In tuning@y..., "David J. Finnamore" <daeron@b...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_21239.html#21283

>
> One of my favorite non tonic endings is "Nobody Home" from Pink
Floyd's album "The Wall." It ends on the pseudo V7/vi (pseudo
because earlier in the song it always resolves to the IV), truly
giving the feeling of getting no answer when one is desperately
needed.
>

When I was in Russia, we visited the home of a Moscow resident. He
was very happy to have American visitors and told us that he had
heard some American (or English??) music and PARTICULARLY was fond of
Pink Floyd.

Regrettably, I have to date never CONSCIOUSLY heard any Pink Floyd
(head, obviously, in music school practice room) so, if I were to
pick ONE album to purchase, would "The Wall" be the one?? Do people,
kind of knowing me, think I would like this??

________ _____ ___ _
Joseph Pehrson

--- In tuning@y..., jpehrson@r... wrote:

/tuning/topicId_21239.html#21399

> --- In tuning@y..., "David J. Finnamore" <daeron@b...> wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_21239.html#21283
>
> >
> > One of my favorite non tonic endings is "Nobody Home" from Pink
> > Floyd's album "The Wall." It ends on the pseudo V7/vi (pseudo
> > because earlier in the song it always resolves to the IV), truly
> > giving the feeling of getting no answer when one is desperately
> > needed.
> >
>
> When I was in Russia, we visited the home of a Moscow resident.
> He was very happy to have American visitors and told us that he
> had heard some American (or English??) music and PARTICULARLY
> was fond of Pink Floyd.
>
> Regrettably, I have to date never CONSCIOUSLY heard any Pink
> Floyd (head, obviously, in music school practice room) so, if
> I were to pick ONE album to purchase, would "The Wall" be the
> one?? Do people, kind of knowing me, think I would like this??

You've probably heard the signature hook from _The Wall_ [1979],
"All in all it's just a-nother brick in the wall", to a rockin'
disco beat. This album, while hugely popular, outraged some
hard-core Floyd fans who thought the band had sold out to disco.

I would say, yes, _The Wall_ is the best single Floyd album
to buy if you're getting only one. An alternative choice
would be _Dark Side of the Moon_.

_The Wall_ is a "double-album", and I listened to it once and
sometimes twice every single day for at least a month after
I bought it. A very good place to start if you want to develop
a Pink Floyd collection. I think it is one the most successful
"concept albums" (in terms of that particular aspect), and
a lot of the music and lyrics are memorable.

OK, now this is getting blatantly off-topic... but loving this
album so much, I just had to respond...

-monz

my most favourite pink floyd album is Meddle
actually only one side of Meddle-- "echoes"
by far the bestest floyd
BTW everything after Final Cut is David Gilmour project regardless of what
albums and lawyers say

Pat Pagano, Director
South East Just Intonation Society
http://indians.australians.com/meherbaba/
http://www.screwmusicforever.com/SHREESWIFT/
----- Original Message -----
From: David Beardsley <xouoxno@virtulink.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 7:42 PM
Subject: OT: Re: [tuning] Pink Floyd

>
>
> jpehrson@rcn.com wrote:
> >
> > --- In tuning@y..., "David J. Finnamore" <daeron@b...> wrote:
> >
> > /tuning/topicId_21239.html#21283
> >
> > >
> > > One of my favorite non tonic endings is "Nobody Home" from Pink
> > Floyd's album "The Wall." It ends on the pseudo V7/vi (pseudo
> > because earlier in the song it always resolves to the IV), truly
> > giving the feeling of getting no answer when one is desperately
> > needed.
> > >
> >
> > When I was in Russia, we visited the home of a Moscow resident. He
> > was very happy to have American visitors and told us that he had
> > heard some American (or English??) music and PARTICULARLY was fond of
> > Pink Floyd.
> >
> > Regrettably, I have to date never CONSCIOUSLY heard any Pink Floyd
> > (head, obviously, in music school practice room) so, if I were to
> > pick ONE album to purchase, would "The Wall" be the one?? Do people,
> > kind of knowing me, think I would like this??
>
> Dark Side of the Moon or Wish You Were Here.
>
>
> --
> * D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
> * 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
> * http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm
> * http://mp3.com/davidbeardsley
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
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for the tuning group.
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mode.
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emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Yow...when it comes to Floyd, you gotta have "Ummagumma." It's a 2 CD
set, live and studio...absolutely one of the great rock albums of the
whole 60's thing...Hstick

no don't get "the wall", from the perspective of ensemble play, transcendant
guitar stylings and harmonic considerations, "animals" is a far better
disc...

-slidelicks

My favorite Pink Floyd is "Final Cut" without doubt. Lots of 5/4 intervals
contained. I often play along on the bassoon (at least I used to). It is
really wonderful.

Johnny Reinhard

Most Pink Floyd fans seem to agree that _Wish You Were Here_ is their
best album . . . I like it . . . but they're one of my _least_
favorite British rock bands (they kind of put me to sleep).

Ummagumma is the one.

--- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:

/tuning/topicId_21239.html#21429

> My favorite Pink Floyd is "Final Cut" without doubt. Lots of 5/4
intervals contained. I often play along on the bassoon (at least I
used to). It is
> really wonderful.
>
> Johnny Reinhard

It's interesting that practically everybody came up with a DIFFERENT
Pink Floyd album!

Logic would dictate that that means they probably have QUITE A FEW
good albums!

_______ ______ ______ ___
Joseph Pehrson

--- In tuning@y..., jpehrson@r... wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_21239.html#21429
>
> > My favorite Pink Floyd is "Final Cut" without doubt. Lots of 5/4
> intervals contained. I often play along on the bassoon (at least I
> used to). It is
> > really wonderful.
> >
> > Johnny Reinhard
>
> It's interesting that practically everybody came up with a
DIFFERENT
> Pink Floyd album!
>
> Logic would dictate that that means they probably have QUITE A FEW
> good albums!

On another e-group I belong to, which by its nature contains a lot of
Pink Floyd fans, the subject of Pink Floyd came up simultaneously.
Now that it seems to be winding down, I can report that _Final Cut_
is the most UN-recommended album, partly as a result of the total
domination of Roger Waters and the absence of keyboardist Rick
Wright. The _Live at Pompeii_ video comes highly recommended. My
favorite Floyd album might be _Animals_ if I ever got to listen to it
all the way through.

Here is a brief review of all the Pink Floyd albums from _The
Gibraltar Encyclopedia of Progressive Rock_ (my trusted choice):

"The Piper at the Gates of Dawn (67), A Saucerful of Secrets (68),
More (69), Ummagumma (69), Atom Heart Mother (70), Relics (71),
Meddle (71), Obscured by Clouds (72), The Dark Side of the Moon (73),
A Nice Pair (73, first two albums repackaged), Wish You Were Here
(75), Animals (77), The Wall (79), A Collection of Great Dance Songs
(81, comp.), The Final Cut (83), Works (83, comp. of early material),
A Momentary Lapse of Reason (87), A Delicate Sound of Thunder (89),
Shine On (92, boxed set), The Division Bell (94), Pulse (96)

The Piper at the Gates of Dawn - Nice, dreamy, surrealistic,
storybookish, childlike (but not childish) type stuff. Syd Barrett
was the band's leader for this one, and it has a distinctively
different touch from anything that followed. A Saucerful of Secrets -
Barrett's gone now. This music continues in sort of the same vein,
but harder-edged. The showcase of the album is the title cut, a sort-
of avant-garde type piece everyone needs to hear. Ummagumma - A two-
record set. The first record consists of live performances, all of
which are, in my opinion, improvements over the studio versions. The
guys stretch out with some psychedelic jams. The second record gives
each member of the band a half-side to do anything he wants, all by
himself. Kind of interesting to see what they did--some of it's
pretty off-the-wall stuff, especially Waters' "Several Small
Species..." - but the live record is what justifies the album.
Soundtrack to More (not sure of date, but pretty sure it belongs
here). Something a completist would want, but the casual listener
could put it at the bottom of his music-to-buy list. Atom Heart
Mother -- the title track is a side-long suite, complete with
orchestra, a bluesey guitar solo, electronic effects, a section that
could only be described as (and I know how ridiculous this sounds) a
choir scat-singing, and ... well, the kitchen sink. In terms of pure
inventiveness, probably their standout piece. Meddle - Another side-
long epic, "Echoes." It's not the large-scale composition the AHM
Suite is; rather, "Echoes" is more like an extended song: intro, two
verses, bridge with solos, third verse, and they're off to lunch. The
other side is mostly accoustic-type stuff, very nicely done, and also
contains the rather intense "One of these Days." Obscured by Clouds -
See comments for More; however, this album would be slightly higher
on your list. Dark Side of the Moon - I suppose this is the "turning
point" Floyd album. Waters' domination over the band began to really
kick in here. For the first time, we see a whole albums' worth of
lyrics that show a sad, cynical outlook on the world. Fortunately,
Waters still had some poetry in him at this point, and the music
itself is gorgeous. Wish You Were Here - Their tribute to Syd
Barrett. Poignant, even sad, this album captures in its lyrics and
music the sense of life's quiet tragedies. The only negative thing is
that there are a couple places where the music seems to ramble on a
bit too long. If not for that, I could almost consider this a perfect
album. Animals - In my opinion, their most "progressive" album. What
I particularly like about this one is that Waters and Co. managed to
get some fascinating, innovative, evocative music recorded without
doing anything that was truly weird. (Oh, yeah, some barking dogs.
Big deal.) Weird is okay, actually, but to get the same effect
without weirdness is a major accomplishment. The poetry I mentioned
that Waters had in him four years earlier is now wearing thin; the
metaphor of people-as-animals isn't exactly fresh. And he puts the
idea across with "the subtle touch of the sledge hammer," as some of
my writer friends sometimes say. What saves the album, lyrically, is
that this idea just happens to be one that's possibly better off
treated this way. The Wall - Overblown, self-pitying "World War II
was a world-wide conspiracy to deprive me of my father' BS. This is
not to belittle the tragedies of war and/or the loss of fathers. It
can make for compelling subject matter. But notice I said "can." Any
subject matter, no matter how important or compellingly tragic, can
be given a treatment that would make even the most indulgent listener
want to slap the songwriter around and shout, "WHO CARES???" To be
honest, I don't see much effort on Waters' part to actually write
lyrics; many of the songs seem not to be much more than notes for an
autobiographical story or an essay. To be fair, though, it does have
some nice moments--mostly on the songs Gilmour co-wrote - but I can't
imagine listening to all four sides at once. The Final Cut - more of
The Wall, only not as interesting. Wake me when it's over. A
Momentary Lapse of Reason - Waters is gone now, leaving the
leadership role to Gilmour. This album has some nice Pink Floyd style
pop music, which puts it ahead of most of what you hear on the radio.
Unfortunately, many of us who were seriously into the band in the mid-
70's or earlier have to just shake our heads and mutter, "Surely they
can do better than this.." Delicate Sound of Thunder - The live album
from the Momentary Lapse tour. I didn't bother with it. The Division
Bell shows little recovery from the Momentary Lapse decline and is of
little interest to those not in the grip of the Floydian dogma."

I know that Pulse is a very fine live album with no new compositions,
I think.

--- In tuning@y..., PERLICH@A... wrote:

/tuning/topicId_21239.html#21619

Thanks, Paul, for your Pink Floyd compendium... I know some people
like it here, but after reading this, I doubt I would spring for "The
Wall..." Looks like "Dark Side of the Moon" would be a far better
choice... if one believes "critics.." :) I'm just rather surprised I
didn't encounter this stuff in the late '60's...

_________ _______ ______ _
Joseph Pehrson