Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Re: Messages download program

Hi Joseph,

Here is why I'm cautious about releasing the messages download program.

Suppose that I upload the zip and the program.

Now suppose that two of the members of the TL who belong to other groups
decide to do the same thing for their groups - an entirely reasonable
thing to do.

Suppose now that on each of those groups, two members make the same
decision.

Two each time is enough to make it an exponential.

Within, say four or five days, it would come to a climax.

Like this:

1 entire group downloaded. 2 simulataneously. 4 sim.
... 1024 simultaneously,.. 65536 simultaneously (if there
are that many).

Would happen much faster if three members, or more, decided
to do it. When reaching maximum point, one could have
several members of some of the groups downloading their
archives simultaneously, each unaware of the other's activities.

I'm not saying this will happen, or is even likely, but if there
is even a small chance of it, one wants to take precautions
to prevent it happening.

There is nothing to limit it because of the way e-mail can
be passed on so quickly, and one knows how fast chain letters
and the like spread.

Would the yahoo servers be up to the task of serving the entire
archives of the majority of the groups simultaneously, if it
came to that? Or would everyone find that for a while they
couldn't access the posts at all?

Do you see the point, and the reason for caution?

It does also seem to be a new program, and to fill a need,
and I don't know of any other way to do it that is available,
so we have no precedents to go by.

Of course, once the zips are made, and generally available, that
reduces the load on the servers, as those who have them can do
searches in the zips instead of on-line.

One idea I have is to have a special ftp address that the program
could call up, and see if it is okay to continue with the ftp.

Could be one I manage myself, or one managed by Yahoo.

Could just be a file that has to be there, and if deleted,
stops all instances of the program from doing ftp - that would
be like an emergency cord, and would be sufficient if one
was pretty sure it would never be needed.

Could be a file in the tuning group files area in fact,
so that one can be sure that if the Yahoo groups are
available, then one will be able to access it.

Or could be something more sophisticated, a perl program
or java servlet that would return a message, say,
"There are xxx instances of this program ftp-ing
archives simultaneously right now, and so you will be
limited to n ftp tries every minute until the numbers
go down", or " there are xxx instances running, so you
need to wait for one of them to exit before continuing".

and the program displays that message, and will only continue
if the message returned is, say, "OK".

Whatever I do, I think I'll have to contact Yahoo, perhaps
when the program has been beta testing.

However I may add in the "emergency cord" idea for the
beta test, as I will then be happier about making the
beta widely available, say, for anyone on the TL to use,
or something like that.

I should finish the ftp of the entire TL archive fairly soon
- been doing it gradually while debugging and am doing
messages 8000 to 10000 at present.

As with you, I'm sure I've said some silly things on the list,
and certainly lots of things that were incorrect and had
to be corrected later. I'm sure nearly everyone has.

However, when one looks at the archive, what strikes one is
the variety and richness of the ideas, and I find it very
impressive in fact.

So, on the whole, can't imagine anyone will mind, especially
since they are available on-line anyway, and as you say,
hardly any kind of comercial prospect!

As for the size of the messages:

Yes, they are a bit larger in html.

However, they need to be in html for the links to work.

Links do also work in e-mail programs in messages that
appear to be plain text. However, they can't be plain
text entirely, at least, the edit control that one
types into can't be plain text (the archives of the
messages could be, auto converted when read) because
plain text doesn't include support for hyperlinks.

They are very probably in rich edit format in fact,
as that is one of the standard windows controls, and
does have some support for hyperlinks.

Rich edit needs more space than html:

http://www.robertwalker.f9.co.uk

saved as a single document in Word in rtf format is

{\rtf1\ansi\ansicpg1252\uc1
\deff0\deflang1033\deflangfe1033{\fonttbl{\f0\froman\fcharset0\fprq2{\*\panose
02020603050405020304}Times New
Roman;}}{\colortbl;\red0\green0\blue0;\red0\green0\blue255;\red0\green255\blue255;\red0\green255\blu
e0;
\red255\green0\blue255;\red255\green0\blue0;\red255\green255\blue0;\red255\green255\blue255;\red0\gr
een0\blue128;\red0\green128\blue128;\red0\green128\blue0;\red128\green0\blue128;\red128\green0\blue0
;\red128\green128\blue0;\red128\green128\blue128;
\red192\green192\blue192;}{\stylesheet{\widctlpar\adjustright \fs20\cgrid \snext0 Normal;}{\*\cs10
\additive Default Paragraph Font;}{\*\cs15 \additive \ul\cf2 \sbasedon10 Hyperlink;}}{\info{\title
www}{\author Robert Walker}{\operator Robert Walker}
{\creatim\yr2001\mo4\dy1\min19}{\revtim\yr2001\mo4\dy1\min19}{\version2}{\edmins0}{\nofpages1}{\nofw
ords0}{\nofchars0}{\*\company }{\nofcharsws0}{\vern89}}\margl1440\margr1440
\widowctrl\ftnbj\aenddoc\formshade\viewkind1\viewscale102\viewzk2\pgbrdrhead\pgbrdrfoot \fet0\sectd
\linex0\headery1440\footery1440\sectdefaultcl
{\*\pnseclvl1\pnucrm\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang{\pntxta
.}}{\*\pnseclvl2\pnucltr\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang
{\pntxta .}}{\*\pnseclvl3\pndec\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang{\pntxta
.}}{\*\pnseclvl4\pnlcltr\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang{\pntxta )}}{\*\pnseclvl5\pndec\pnstart1\pninden
t720\pnhang{\pntxtb (}{\pntxta )}}{\*\pnseclvl6\pnlcltr\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang
{\pntxtb (}{\pntxta )}}{\*\pnseclvl7\pnlcrm\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang{\pntxtb
(}{\pntxta )}}{\*\pnseclvl8\pnlcltr\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang{\pntxtb
(}{\pntxta )}}{\*\pnseclvl9\pnlcrm\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang{\pntxtb (}{\pntxta )}}\pard\plain
\widctlpar\adjustright \fs20\cgrid {\field{\*\fldinst {HYPERLINK
"http://www.robertwalker.f9.co.uk"}{{\*\datafield
00d0c9ea79f9bace118c8200aa004ba90b0200000003000000e0c9ea79f9bace118c8200aa004ba90b440000006800740074
0070003a002f002f007700770077002e0072006f006200650072007400770061006c006b00650072002e00660039002e0063
006f002e0075006b002f000000}}}{\fldrslt {\cs15\ul\cf2
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\par
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Much of that is probably redundant, but it would still take a lot of space.

By comparison, html is pretty compact!

I can reduce the actual disk space needed, by placing several posts to a page,
as there is a minimum size for a file - a file shown as 0 Kb will in fact use
anything from 4 Kb to 64 Kb depending on the sizes of the clusters on your
hard disk.

I've done that, and it now uses 10 posts per page as a default.

Anyway more later. I'll probably do the complete archive if everyone is
happy about this,...

Robert

Re: Messages download program

🔗Robert Walker <robert_walker@rcwalker.freeserve.co.uk>

🔗jpehrson@rcn.com

🔗monz <MONZ@JUNO.COM>

🔗jpehrson@rcn.com