my music - and the ANS synthesizer

I am sorry that I don't post messages on the Tuning List as often as all of
you. I am still trying to get into the spirit of it, and to figure out the
threads of conversation. I do remember that there was someone here, a few
days ago, who asked me what kinds of tunings I like (presumably in my own
music). I should point out that as for microtonal writing, I am still a
"beginner", having written only three pieces, which included microtones, and
these are quarter tones. One of my pieces, which is for solo bassoon,
written for Johnny Reinhard, one of the participants on this list, does
include sixth-tones. I have yet to discover the experience of writing for
new and complrex tunings. As far as which tunings do I like to listen to - I
should say: all of them, especially if the music results in being good. I am
very interested in the whole idea of just intonation music, as well as some
of the more remote equal temperament tunings - like 19-equal, 31-equal, etc.
I hope that answers the question.

One observation that I wanted to point out, which I thought was
"interesting", was that when Joseph Pehrson put my interview with Stanislav
Kreichi and the ANS synthesizer, most of you were more struck with the
historical situation of persecution of electronic music in the Soviet times
(which doesn't surprise anyone here in Russia, except that we're glad that
it's over), and not too many of you paid to much attention to the extremely
interesting idea behind the creation of the ANS synthesizer (microtonal
writing was a strong factor behind its creation), nor the very interesting
way that it's constructed. I would suggest, for those that are interested,
to read the interview again, paying attention to that, and I am sure that it
would arouse a lot of questions and discusions. In fact, I even suggesed to
Joseph Pehrson to post just the answer to the second question, which has all
of this information (thinking that the whole interview would be too long),
but he was very interested in the whole material, so that's why he posted
the whole thing. I am sure that some of the means of construction for the
ANS synthesizer could still be used for constructing some present-day
"advanced technique" electronic and computer instruments, despite the fact
that it's over forty years old.

Anton Rovner

--- In tuning@y..., "Ant" <ant@d...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_20571.html#20571

> One observation that I wanted to point out, which I thought was
> "interesting", was that when Joseph Pehrson put my interview with
Stanislav Kreichi and the ANS synthesizer, most of you were more
struck with the historical situation of persecution of electronic
music in the Soviet times
> (which doesn't surprise anyone here in Russia, except that we're
glad that it's over), and not too many of you paid to much attention
to the extremely interesting idea behind the creation of the ANS
synthesizer (microtonal writing was a strong factor behind its
creation), nor the very interesting way that it's constructed. I would
suggest, for those that are interested, to read the interview again,
paying attention to that, and I am sure that it would arouse a lot of
questions and discusions.

Hello Anton!

I believe you make a good point that it's fruitless to discuss past
Russian history, particularly the unpleasantries... Regarding the
ANS, from the article I was a bit unclear as to the actual nature of
the physical interface. Is it several plates of glass, or one
continuing plate, and how long a period of time does the glass plate
encompass? Additionally, how does one know what pitch one is on....
are there 72 divisions indicated on the glass before one starts
drawing?? What does one use to draw, a special pen or some such??

Also, I wish somebody on the list would refresh my memory as to all
the advantages of 72-tET. I know that our traditional 12-tET scale is
included in it, but what are the other advantages in terms of
sonorities again?? I know it is a very flexible scale and very
popular in Boston at the moment.

Anyway, it does seem that the ANS was a VERY EARLY foray into
microtonality even if the interface methods may seem somewhat
antiquated today by todays computer and MIDI standards...

Thanks again, Anton, for the post!

_______ ______ ______ _
Joseph Pehrson

Joseph!
It is quite good in using harmonics up to he 16th

jpehrson@rcn.com wrote:

> Also, I wish somebody on the list would refresh my memory as to all
> the advantages of 72-tET.

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

Joseph Pehrson wrote,

<<I wish somebody on the list would refresh my memory as to all the
advantages of 72-tET.>>

Hi Joe,

I think one of the more impressive things about 72 equal is that the
learning curve from traditional 12 equal notation and thinking over to
Ezra Sims' 72 equal glyphs has been proven to be quite doable. It's
already established, and boasts a very impressive track record.

Another thing about 72-tET is that it is consistent through the
17-limit (i.e., a big old 1:3:5:7:9:11:13:15:17 chord). This means
that the relevant consonances of the 17-odd limit will be always be
"consistently" represented by their closest 72-tET approximation.

Here's a link to Rick Tagawa's 72 page (which is kind of a sprawling
collection of little odds and ends):

<http://sites.netscape.net/masanoritagawa/homepage>

And here's a link to James Tenney's 72-tET guitar sextet "Water on the
Mountain...Fire in heaven" as performed by new music specialist Seth
Josel.

<http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/38/seth_josel_guitar.html>

Note that this is 17-limit consistent microtonal music accomplished by
way of simply retuning and multi-tracking the open strings of a
standard electric guitar.

This represents one clever way to exploit the fact that 72 is a
multiple of 12 to explore exotic microtonal (or as in this case the
intentional use of exotic near JI) sonorities without having to scrap
your "traditional" instrument.

--Dan Stearns

--- In tuning@y..., "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@C...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_20571.html#20598

Thanks, Dan, for the "refresher" on 72-tET and, also, for the website
link which I had at one point but lost. I appreciate it!

best,

________ _____ ______ ___
Joseph Pehrson

<< I believe you make a good point that it's fruitless to discuss past
Russian history, particularly the unpleasantries...>>

It's certainly ok to discuss that, occasionally, as well - something to
learn from, to make sure that it wouldn't happen again, anywhere in the
world. It's just that personally, I find the theoretical, musical and
technological aspects of the ANS much more interesting - and in fact, the
topic most relevant to this forum - which was why I was surprised that none
really paid attention to it.

<< Regarding the ANS, from the article I was a bit unclear as to the actual
nature of the physical interface. Is it several plates of glass, or one
continuing plate, and how long a period of time does the glass plate
encompass? Additionally, how does one know what pitch one is on.... are
there 72 divisions indicated on the glass before one starts drawing?? What
does one use to draw, a special pen or some such??>>

It's all in the interview! It is one plate of glass (actually, it is several
additional plates of glass, which you can change, but only one is put up on
the synthesizer at a time, on which you could draw. The period of time
depends on how fast you turn the wheel - it could be one minute, or it could
be as long as eight or even ten minutes. My two pieces for the ANS
synthesizer take about five minutes, which is the "average" length of most
such pieces. One can identify the pitches by a chart, which is part of the
instrument (representing a "depiction" of a piano keyboard, which identifies
each exact note, which in turn is divided into six segments, similar to the
millimeter indications on a ruler. So it's all there - except that achieving
exact pitches of more advanced tunings calls for very careful and meticulous
drawing - if you draw a line a millimeter off, then you have swayed away
from the tuning. You draw with a wooden "pencil" (or an object in the shape
of it, without the lead), which scrapes off the mastic. It's just a real
pity that as of now almost nobody took advantage of the microtonal aspect of
the instrument - most composers were more interested in the sound color. If
any of you, members of the Tuning List, would find your way into Moscow, you
should visit the old building of Moscow University, where the instrument is
located and have a try at it. Of course, someone can always build a replica
of the instrument in another country - possibly a more modernized one.

<< Also, I wish somebody on the list would refresh my memory as to all the
advantages of 72-tET. I know that our traditional 12-tET scale is included
in it, but what are the other advantages in terms of sonorities again?? I
know it is a very flexible scale and very popular in Boston at the moment.>>

I personally don't know all of the advantages of the 72-t ET scale. The
instrument's inventor, Evgeny Murzin, thought that this would be an adequate
scale to fit many different microtonal temperaments, which the composer
would be at liberty to choose from - including just intonation, the
availability of which was one of Murzin's aims of achieving. Personally, I
think that 72t ET is rather limiting compared to all the microtonal
possibilities, of which we know today - however, presumably, it was quite
advanced for its time.

<<Anyway, it does seem that the ANS was a VERY EARLY foray into
microtonality even if the interface methods may seem somewhat antiquated
today by todays computer and MIDI standards...>>

Well, the initial conception of the ANS does go back to 1938 - which is
quite early for electronic - it was only realized in 1958, already after all
the famous pieces by Stockhausen, Pierre Schaeffer et al. Murzin was, in
fact, inspired by Scriabin's ideas about microtonality. I don't know how
many people know that Scriabin actually advocated microtonality (as
witnessed by his biographer, Leonid Sabaneyev, who was soon to become a
major music critic and even stronger advocate of microtonality, later on),
since "he felt constrained within the 12 tone equal temperament scale". It's
a pity that he (Scriabin) didn't live long enough to carry out his ideas in
practice - I am sure that he would have done a great job with it, like he
did with his other achievements in the sphere of new harmony.

--- In tuning@y..., Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_20571.html#20594

> Joseph!
> It is quite good in using harmonics up to he 16th
>
> jpehrson@r... wrote:
>
> > Also, I wish somebody on the list would refresh my memory
> > as to all the advantages of 72-tET.

I was looking for the Consistency Table (by Paul Erlich or Hahn,
I forget which) that was stored at the Mills College FTP site,
and it doesn't seem to exist any more. I believe that's what
Kraig means here: it's consistent in terms of notation to
16-limit or somewhere around there.

Another "advantage" is the great number of smaller subset scales
contained within 72-tET, because it's so easily divisible:

36-tET = 1/6-tone
24-tET = 1/4-tone
18-tET = 1/3-tone
12-tET = the usual semitone chromatic (and all the diatonics)
9-tET = 2/3-tone nonatonic
8-tET = 3/4-tone octatonic
6-tET = whole-tone
4-tET = diminished 7th chord
3-tET = augmented chord
2-tET = tritone

So 72-tET retains a lot that's familiar (12-, 6-, 4-, 3-, 2-tET),
as well as giving some of the more common microtonal scales advocated
in the early 1900s (36-, 34-. 18-, 8-tET), and a whole slew of more
exotic stuff too (the unequal divisions I didn't mention here).

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

Monz wrote:

> I was looking for the Consistency Table (by Paul Erlich or Hahn,
> I forget which) that was stored at the Mills College FTP site,
> and it doesn't seem to exist any more. I believe that's what
> Kraig means here: it's consistent in terms of notation to
> 16-limit or somewhere around there.

I'm sure I posted a link to a consistency chart on the Mills site last
week. But I can't find the message. I think you can get the chart via
John Starrett's site and a link to Paul Erlich.

Paul Hahn's consistency charts are here:

<http://library.wustl.edu/~manynote/music.html>

Graham

--- In tuning@y..., "Ant" <ant@d...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_20571.html#20620

> It's all in the interview! It is one plate of glass (actually, it
is several additional plates of glass, which you can change, but only
one is put up on the synthesizer at a time, on which you could draw.
The period of time depends on how fast you turn the wheel - it could
be one minute, or it could be as long as eight or even ten minutes.
My two pieces for the ANS synthesizer take about five minutes, which
is the "average" length of most such pieces. One can identify the
pitches by a chart, which is part of the instrument (representing a
"depiction" of a piano keyboard, which identifies each exact note,
which in turn is divided into six segments, similar to the millimeter
indications on a ruler. So it's all there - except that achieving
exact pitches of more advanced tunings calls for very careful and
meticulous drawing - if you draw a line a millimeter off, then you
have swayed away from the tuning. You draw with a wooden "pencil" (or
an object in the shape of it, without the lead), which scrapes off
the mastic.

Hello Anton!

Thanks again for your response. I read over again the ANS article
which is, again at the following posts:

/tuning/topicId_20355.html#20355
/tuning/topicId_20356.html#20356
/tuning/topicId_20357.html#20357

The technical part of the article, and the part that, specifically,
involves microtonality is about half way through the first post.

Thank you, Anton, for including all the meticulous detail about the
technical construction of the ANS in your interview.

HOWEVER, the problem I am having, and it is after the THIRD careful
read of the interview, is, I believe, essentially a problem of
TRANSLATION. I am getting MOST of the ideas, but some of the
specifics are still a little vague, even though they are mostly in
the article. This is the reason for the further questioning.

For example, it seems from the interview that the plate of glass is
in front of one, or several "wheels" that create frequencies when
light is shone upon them through the mastic. HOWEVER, it says
nothing about the COMPOSER turning any such wheel or wheels. I'm
still "in the dark" about that part.

Likewise, and this is not meant as a criticism of YOU OR of the
article, but simply, I believe, a problem of the "confusion"
resulting from language translation, it was not perfectly clear to me
that there was a PIANO KEYBOARD layout you were working with that had
6 divisions for each key! I realize the ideas WERE expressed in the
article, but only in a way that I could get them in a GENERAL sense.
Thanks for the subsequent clear explanation. Also, although it is
clear in the interview that one scrapes off the mastic to produce a
pitch, it wasn't clear to me that one uses a wooden pencil, or
something in that shape to do this.

This may be all my fault in not being able to grasp these ideas from
the writing, but I would rather blame the *translation* for any such
inabilities on my part!

In any case, regardless of the "blame," thank you so much again for
the further elaboration!

>It's just a real pity that as of now almost nobody took advantage of
>the microtonal aspect of the instrument - most composers were more
>interested in the sound color. If any of you, members of the Tuning
>List, would find your way into Moscow, you should visit the old
>building of Moscow University, where the instrument is located and
>have a try at it.

I suggest that any Tuning List participants who are interested in
working with this instrument contact you directly. For myself, all I
can say is that anyone is going to have a TERRIFIC time in Moscow.
The city is beautiful and modern, the food terrifically excellent,
the people very friendly (just keep saying "da, da") and everything
is embarassingly INEXPENSIVE with the American dollar...

> I personally don't know all of the advantages of the 72-t ET scale.
The instrument's inventor, Evgeny Murzin, thought that this would be
an adequate scale to fit many different microtonal temperaments,

I note there have been several posts on the Tuning List regarding
72-tET... and it's "virtues" can be seen from some of these recent
responses!

>Murzin was, in fact, inspired by Scriabin's ideas about
>microtonality. I don't know how many people know that Scriabin
actually advocated microtonality (as witnessed by his biographer,
Leonid Sabaneyev, who was soon to become a major music critic and
even stronger advocate of microtonality, later on), since "he felt
constrained within the 12 tone equal temperament scale". It's a pity
that he (Scriabin) didn't live long enough to carry out his
ideas in practice - I am sure that he would have done a great job
with it, like he did with his other achievements in the sphere of new
harmony.

Well, I personally had no idea that Scriabin advocated
microtonality... Anybody else on the list hear of that before??

Anyway, thanks Anton for your significant contribution to the
microtonal discussions through this great ANS interview!

________ _____ ______ __
Joseph Pehrson

--- In tuning@y..., "monz" <MONZ@J...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_20571.html#20621

> >
> > > Also, I wish somebody on the list would refresh my memory
> > > as to all the advantages of 72-tET.
>
>
> I was looking for the Consistency Table (by Paul Erlich or Hahn,
> I forget which) that was stored at the Mills College FTP site,
> and it doesn't seem to exist any more.

Hi Monz!

Actually, I believe the Mills College FTP site is now GONE! I was
also trying to access it with FTP client software... That's why it is
good that Robert Walker is trying to figure out how to save THIS
archive!

Thanks for the information on 72-tET... I am adding it to my "saved"
materials...

________ ______ ____ _
Joseph Pehrson

Monz wrote:

> > jpehrson@r... wrote:
> >
> > > Also, I wish somebody on the list would refresh my memory
> > > as to all the advantages of 72-tET.
>
> I was looking for the Consistency Table (by Paul Erlich or Hahn,
> I forget which) that was stored at the Mills College FTP site,
> and it doesn't seem to exist any more. I believe that's what
> Kraig means here: it's consistent in terms of notation to
> 16-limit or somewhere around there.

This isn't what you were looking for, but it is a chart by Paul E. (actually data by Paul, converted to
chart by me) that makes 72 look mighty doggone appealing:

http://personal.bna.bellsouth.net/bna/d/f/dfin/DefectsETs.htm

--
David J. Finnamore
Nashville, TN, USA
http://personal.bna.bellsouth.net/bna/d/f/dfin/index.html
--

> I was looking for the Consistency Table (by Paul Erlich or Hahn,
> I forget which) that was stored at the Mills College FTP site,
> and it doesn't seem to exist any more.

It's still there:

ftp://ella.mills.edu/ccm/tuning/papers/consist_limits.txt

and Paul Hahn's (easier to read) are at

http://library.wustl.edu/~manynote/music.html