Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Re: learning to sing in alternative tunings

> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:04:42 -0000
> From: "Jim Cole" <thejimcole@yahoo.com>
> Subject: learning to sing in alt. tunings

> I am interested in learning to sing in different tunings and am
> wondering what equip. would be useful to help me hear and sing them
> accurately. I'm hoping there are ways to do this inexpensively. Is
> there share/free ware that I could use with computer to have all the
> notes of a particular tuning available for me to check my voice
> with? I started using Mathieu's (sp?) harmony book that has
> excellent info/methods for learning to sing particular intervals -
> and I realize this stuff takes time. Any suggestions on how to
> proceed?

> Thanks,

> ~Jim Cole
> http://www.spectralvoices.com

Dear list members,

Some historical quotes on this [and/or related] from practitioners of
the mid-18th century.

It is interesting that the emphasis is mainly on the difference of the
major and minor semitone, though circulating temperament prevails!
The "comma" is here most often the "small diesis".

Kind regards
Ibo Ortgies

[hope, my translation is understandable]:

----------------------
Johann Friedrich Agricola's
"Anleitung zur Singkunst", Berlin, 1757
["Manual of the Art of Singing"]
(facs. ed. by Erwin. R. Jacobi. Celle: Hermann Moeck Verlag, Celle),

which was a enlarged, commented translation of
Pier Francesco Tosi's
"Opinioni de'cantori antichi e moderni o sieno Osservazioni sopra il
canto figurato"
Bologna, 1723

[Capitalization by me]

I. Hauptstï¿½ck, p. 1 f.
[translated from Tosi]
The teaching in the beginning should be carried out by a mediocre
singer, until the pupil sing exactly from sight without mistake. ... He
[the teacher] has to have an ease in his voice, some insight into good
taste, an ability to make his thoughts easily understood to others, a
PERFECTLY PURE INTONATION, and finally a patience which can resist the
greatest troublesomeness of one of the most annoying preoccupations." (a)
(a) [Agricola's comment]:
He must thus himself be able to sing, if he wants to teach others
singing. It will be a great advantage to him and his subordinates, if he
is able to accompany on the "Claviere" [harpsichord, clavichord]:
because the pupils can master the PURE INTONATION double the better, if
the can hear, besides the bass, the associated pure harmony as well.
The first of these two main items [to be able to sing] is missing
nowadays [1757] in German teachers, the second [to be able to accompany
on the Clavier] in many Italian, alleged singing teachers.

p. 17 ff.
Tosi:
The teacher should take care, that the notes will be rendered by the
pupil PERFECTLY PURE, when he sings their [respective solmization]
syllables. He, WHO HAS NOT A GOOD EAR, SHOULD NEITHER undertake to
TEACH, NOR to SING: because the defect of a voice, which rises and falls
like ebb and flood, is simply intolerable. The teacher should really pay
highest attention to this. Because a singer, who doesn't sing pure,
certainly looses one of the most beautiful virtue which he might
possess. Without that anyone could blame me for lying I can claim that
(with the exception of a few singers) the new-fashioned intonation
[1723] is very bad.
...
He has to render the semitones after the TRUE RULES. It is not known to
everyone, that there are major and minor semitones: because you cannot
hear this difference on an organ or the harpsichord, if they don't have
split keys (h).
(h) [Agricola's comment]:
In some old organs and harpsichords were several/many of the upper keys
cut apart from each other, of which one part [key] let sound somewhat
lower pipes or strings, the other [part] somewhat higher ones; and these
were called "broken keys". Usually there were two in each octave: the
key between G and A; and the one between D and E. The first one has to
discern between G# and A-flat, the latter between D# and E-flat. In our
times these broken keys have been completely abolished, because of the
difficulties in playing the Clavier, and instead to strive for a better
concordance of the temperament or "beating tuning".
...[follows a short discussion of the division of the whole tone in nine "commas"]
Tosi: [p. 19]
If one would always sing to the accompaniment of the previously
mentioned two instruments (organ, harpsichord): this insight would be
redundant. But since the composers invented the custom to let hear many
arias in each opera, which are accompanied only by the strings, (i) an
insight in this is very necessary.
(i) [Agricola's comment]:
This fashion is nowadays not flourishing so much as thirty or mor years
ago, when Tosi lived. But it has not perished either.
Tosi:
For example, if a [male] soprano singer sings the d#'' like the eb'',
everyone who has ears can hear that he sings impure: because the latter
[eb''] should be somewhat higher. If this, what I said, is not enough,
read different authors which deal with it (k), or consult the most
famous violinists. In the middle parts this [difference] is not as easy
to observe: though I think, that all can be observed [=heard] which can
be "divided". I will write more about this two [different] semitones, in
the chapter on "Vorschlï¿½ge", and will show that they should not be
mistaken for each other.
(k) [Agricola's comment]:
All authors belong who write about the temperament and the interval
systems, for example Telemann, in the 3rd volume of the "Mitzlersche
musikalische Bibliothek", p. 713 p. Sorge in the calculation of ratio,
and other famous men. Since in our time more intervals have come into
use: therefore the singers have to make more serious efforts to render
even the smallest differences of the intervals pure and safely, as much
as possible to them.
(l) [Agricola's comment]:
Also flute-players. For example Quantz in the 'Versuch einer Anweisung
die Flï¿½te traversiere zu spielen", p. 35, 37, 243 and 244.
Tosi [p. 20]
The singing teacher must teach his pupil to sing all leaps in scales,
with PERFECTLY PURE INTONATION, SAFETY and ABILITY. He may teach him in
this highly necessary exercise, even ad nauseam, if he wants that he
[the pupil] should be able to find the notes in short time.

------------

Johann Joachim Quantz:
Versuch einer Anweisung die Flï¿½te traversiere zu spielen
Berlin, 1752
Facs. Wiesbaden: Breitkopf & Hï¿½rtel, 1988.

5. ï¿½., p. 35f.
You can see from this, that the notes with a b [flats] are a comma
[=small diesis] higher, as notes written with a #. Therefor the keys
which are between D and E or between G and A, when they are in minor
[d#-minor resp. eb-minor, g#-minor resp. ab-minor], as well as the key
between C and D, when it is a major key [C#-major resp. Db-major], which
are sometimes written with a b, sometimes with a #, played in a
different way, so that D-flat is a comma [=small diesis] higher than C#,
E-flat a comma [=small diesis] higher than D#; and A-flat a comma
[=small diesis] higher than G#.
8. ï¿½., p. 37
The reason why I invented a second "key" for the flute, previosly not
existing, is becuase of the difference of the large and small semitones.
If a note on the same line or the same space is raised by a #, or
lowered by a flat, the difference between these and the main note is a
small semitone. But if a note is placed on a line, the other one step
higher in a space and lowered by a flat, or if a note is placed on a
line, and is raised by a #, but the other [note] staying natural and on
the space one step higher: then the difference between these two notes
is a major semitone. The major semitone has 5 commata, the minor has 4
[commata]. Therefore the E-flat must be a comma [=small diesis] higher
than D#.
... To observe this difference and TO RENDER THESE NOTES IN THEIR PURE
RATIO, IT WAS NECESSARY TO ADD ANOTHER KEY to the flute. ...
It is true, [that] this difference can not be made on the Clavier, where
you play all the notes on *one key, which are here [on the flute]
different from each other. Not regarding this, since it is founded in
the nature of the flute: because singers and bowed instruments can make
this [difference] without effort [!], therefore it is reasonable to make
this [difference] on the flute as well; which can not happen without the
second key. He who will refine his ear, must have knowledge of this.

---------
Leopold Mozart
Versuch einer grï¿½ndlichen Violinschule
Augsburg, 1756
facs. ed. Greta Moens-Haenen. Kassel: Bï¿½renreiter, 1995

p. 67-68, footnote (b)
On the Clavier are G# and A-flat, D-flat and C#, F# and G-flat, etc.,
the same. This comes from the temperament. But following the correct
ratio are all notes lowered by a (b) a comma [=small diesis] higher than
the notes which are raised by a #. For example is D-flat higher than C#,
A-flat higher than G#, G-flat higher than F#, etc. In this the good ear
must be judge: and it were, however, good, when the pupils would be
shown the sound-measuring instrument (Monochordon).

[on page 255 L. Mozart gives the valuable advice that the 4 strings of the
violin have to be tuned according to the harpsichord or organ]

🔗jpehrson@rcn.com

🔗monz <MONZ@JUNO.COM>

🔗wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com>

🔗Dante Rosati <dante.interport@rcn.com>

isn't it normal on strings to raise leading tones and lower flat sevenths in
dominant chords? they must have done that back then too. so a C# in an A7
chord would be played higher than a Db in an Eb7, no?

Dante

> -----Original Message-----
> From: wallyesterpaulrus [mailto:wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 3:57 PM
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [tuning] from the horse's mouth (l. mozart)
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Ibo Ortgies <ibo.ortgies@m...> wrote:
> > Leopold Mozart
> > Versuch einer grï¿½ndlichen Violinschule
> > Augsburg, 1756
> > facs. ed. Greta Moens-Haenen. Kassel: Bï¿½renreiter, 1995
> >
> > p. 67-68, footnote (b)
> > On the Clavier are G# and A-flat, D-flat and C#, F# and G-flat,
> etc.,
> > the same. This comes from the temperament. But following the correct
> > ratio are all notes lowered by a (b) a comma higher than
> > the notes which are raised by a #. For example is D-flat higher
> than C#,
> > A-flat higher than G#, G-flat higher than F#, etc. In this the
> good ear
> > must be judge: and it were, however, good, when the pupils would be
> > shown the sound-measuring instrument (Monochordon).
> >
> > [on page 255 L. Mozart gives the valuable advice that the 4 strings
> of the
> > violin have to be tuned according to the harpsichord or organ]
>
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
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>
>

🔗wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante.interport@r...>
wrote:
> isn't it normal on strings to raise leading tones and lower flat
sevenths in
> dominant chords? they must have done that back then too. so a C# in
an A7
> chord would be played higher than a Db in an Eb7, no?
>
> Dante

no dante, as you can read below, quite the opposite was done in
leopold mozart's day -- for one thing the aesthetic standard of
purity in the thirds was far more precise than today (or even than
the end of the 18th century), as jorgensen shows. the idea of
reversing these tendencies, and reverting to the opposite pythagorean
tendencies that were in play before 1420, is known as "expressive
intonation" and came into play in the 19th century. the intervening
aesthetic shifts are well-documented by jorgensen, and you can go
deeper and read some of the first-hand sources yourself, if you have
access to a really good library.

>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: wallyesterpaulrus [mailto:wallyesterpaulrus@y...]
> > Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 3:57 PM
> > To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [tuning] from the horse's mouth (l. mozart)
> >
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Ibo Ortgies <ibo.ortgies@m...>
wrote:
> > > Leopold Mozart
> > > Versuch einer gründlichen Violinschule
> > > Augsburg, 1756
> > > facs. ed. Greta Moens-Haenen. Kassel: Bärenreiter, 1995
> > >
> > > p. 67-68, footnote (b)
> > > On the Clavier are G# and A-flat, D-flat and C#, F# and G-flat,
> > etc.,
> > > the same. This comes from the temperament. But following the
correct
> > > ratio are all notes lowered by a (b) a comma higher than
> > > the notes which are raised by a #. For example is D-flat higher
> > than C#,
> > > A-flat higher than G#, G-flat higher than F#, etc. In this the
> > good ear
> > > must be judge: and it were, however, good, when the pupils
would be
> > > shown the sound-measuring instrument (Monochordon).
> > >
> > > [on page 255 L. Mozart gives the valuable advice that the 4
strings
> > of the
> > > violin have to be tuned according to the harpsichord or organ]
> >
> >
> >
> > You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe
through
> > email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> > tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> > tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - unsubscribe from the
tuning group.
> > tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - put your email message delivery
> > on hold for the tuning group.
> > tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to
> > daily digest mode.
> > tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to
> > individual emails.
> > tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >

🔗monz <monz@attglobal.net>

>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Ibo Ortgies <ibo.ortgies@m...> wrote:
> Leopold Mozart
> Versuch einer grï¿½ndlichen Violinschule
> Augsburg, 1756
> facs. ed. Greta Moens-Haenen. Kassel: Bï¿½renreiter, 1995
>
>
> p. 67-68, footnote (b)
> On the Clavier are G# and A-flat, D-flat and C#,
> F# and G-flat, etc., the same. This comes from the
> temperament. But following the correct ratio are
> all notes lowered by a (b) a comma higher than
> the notes which are raised by a #. For example
> is D-flat higher than C#, A-flat higher than G#,
> G-flat higher than F#, etc. In this the good ear
> must be judge: and it were, however, good, when
> the pupils would be shown the sound-measuring
> instrument (Monochordon).

thanks, Ibo!

Johnny, is that satisfactory evidence to back
up what i wrote a couple of weeks ago?

> [on page 255 L. Mozart gives the valuable advice
> that the 4 strings of the violin have to be tuned
> according to the harpsichord or organ]

hmm ... that's interesting advice.

if one assumes that Werckmeister III was the
harpsichord tuning, then the 5ths G:D and D:A will
be "meantone-style" (narrow by 1/4 Pythagorean comma),
but A:E will be a 3/2 ratio. i wonder how well that
would work.

in Kirnberger III, on the other hand, all three of the
5ths on the violin's open strings would be tuned in
1/4-comma meantone, and in fact the 5th C:G in the
cellos and violas would also be 1/4-comma meantone.
in addition, 1/4-meantone would likely be the tuning
of the organ during L. Mozart's lifetime.

i could be wrong here, but i assume that one would
be more likely to want all of the open strings of the
string family to be tuned to similar intervals.

this leads me to draw the conclusion that L. Mozart
must have had in mind a tuning in which this was the
case. assuming that he preferred a well-temperament
for the harpsichord, Kirnberger III happens to fit
this description.

does anyone think this is persuasive enough to argue
that L. Mozart's preferred harpsichord tuning was
like Kirnberger III (which wasn't published until
1779 ... L. Mozart's violin method was 1756)?

what other historical well-temperaments give C:G:D:A:E
all with the same size?

i'm really interested in this, because i've been
putting together a little argument that Kirnberger III
was the piano tuning which Beethoven would have
probably become accustomed to hearing before he
became deaf.

if i'm on the right track about L. Mozart, then
a preference for a well-temperament where the
"string 5ths" C:G:D:A:E were all equally narrow
eventually culminated in Kirnberger III.

feedback appreciated.

-monz

🔗wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Ibo Ortgies <ibo.ortgies@m...>
wrote:
> > Leopold Mozart
> > Versuch einer gründlichen Violinschule
> > Augsburg, 1756
> > facs. ed. Greta Moens-Haenen. Kassel: Bärenreiter, 1995
> >
> >
> > p. 67-68, footnote (b)
> > On the Clavier are G# and A-flat, D-flat and C#,
> > F# and G-flat, etc., the same. This comes from the
> > temperament. But following the correct ratio are
> > all notes lowered by a (b) a comma higher than
> > the notes which are raised by a #. For example
> > is D-flat higher than C#, A-flat higher than G#,
> > G-flat higher than F#, etc. In this the good ear
> > must be judge: and it were, however, good, when
> > the pupils would be shown the sound-measuring
> > instrument (Monochordon).
>
>
>
> thanks, Ibo!
>
> Johnny, is that satisfactory evidence to back
> up what i wrote a couple of weeks ago?
>
>
>
> > [on page 255 L. Mozart gives the valuable advice
> > that the 4 strings of the violin have to be tuned
> > according to the harpsichord or organ]
>
>
> hmm ... that's interesting advice.
>
> if one assumes that Werckmeister III was the
> harpsichord tuning, then the 5ths G:D and D:A will
> be "meantone-style" (narrow by 1/4 Pythagorean comma),
> but A:E will be a 3/2 ratio. i wonder how well that
> would work.
>
>
> in Kirnberger III, on the other hand, all three of the
> 5ths on the violin's open strings would be tuned in
> 1/4-comma meantone, and in fact the 5th C:G in the
> cellos and violas would also be 1/4-comma meantone.
> in addition, 1/4-meantone would likely be the tuning
> of the organ during L. Mozart's lifetime.
>
>
> i could be wrong here, but i assume that one would
> be more likely to want all of the open strings of the
> string family to be tuned to similar intervals.
>
> this leads me to draw the conclusion that L. Mozart
> must have had in mind a tuning in which this was the
> case. assuming that he preferred a well-temperament
> for the harpsichord, Kirnberger III happens to fit
> this description.
>
> does anyone think this is persuasive enough to argue
> that L. Mozart's preferred harpsichord tuning was
> like Kirnberger III (which wasn't published until
> 1779 ... L. Mozart's violin method was 1756)?

no, the evidence is that the violin fifths, and hence the
corresponding keyboard fifths, were tempered by something more like
1/6 pythagorean comma, thus resembling the fifths of 55-equal.
remember all that?

Re: learning to sing in alternative tunings

🔗Ibo Ortgies <ibo.ortgies@musik.gu.se>

🔗jpehrson@rcn.com

🔗monz <MONZ@JUNO.COM>

🔗wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com>

🔗Dante Rosati <dante.interport@rcn.com>

🔗wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com>

🔗monz <monz@attglobal.net>

🔗wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com>