Remark about copyrights in music

By the way, in all the musical history, it seems to me that everybody has
always taken the material (scales or whatever material it can be) from
everybody. Handel has been accused to copy how many others ??

So those things of copyrights seems to me like another Adream of making
endless money upon the others. Why not share what is immortal (I mean of
course, music ! ;o) !

Scales and modes are the letters of a language, can we steal letters ???

Anyway... as others in here who share endlessly their wonderful knowledge,
I don't take this very seriouly as long as it remains unserious. For music
isn't to I or you, it's to us and all those who will come after us, feasting
upon our works !

:o)

Thanks to all, by the way for the enlightment and education of us all !
Someday (when I'll be grown as a composer), I hope I'll remember these and
share to the youngsters of art.

Vincent-Olivier.

--- In tuning@y..., "Vog" <dunael@a...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_19941.html#19941
>
> By the way, in all the musical history, it seems to me that
everybody has lways taken the material (scales or whatever material
it
can be) from everybody. Handel has been accused to copy how many
others ??
>
> Vincent-Olivier.

Thanks so much for your commentary. Of course, scales, primary
materials EVEN TITLES cannot be copyrighted...

________ ____ _____ ____
Joseph Pehrson

>> By the way, in all the musical history, it seems to me that
>> everybody has always taken the material (scales or whatever
>> material it can be) from everybody. Handel has been accused to
>> copy how many others ?

>> Vincent-Olivier.

> Thanks so much for your commentary. Of course, scales, primary
> materials EVEN TITLES cannot be copyrighted...
>
> ________ ____ _____ ____
> Joseph Pehrson

Hm. Yeah but isn't it true that there is a patent
category for musical tunings?

A good tuning has to be invented and designed by a clever
and artistic person who knows her/his math. If it was as
easy as coming up with a song title, how come there aren't
10 million tunings? When the US patent system was
invented, tunings could be *big* business! Meantone was
showing her age. (Can we agree that tunings are feminine
since they are temperamental -- ah ho ho, I kill me! :->)
Pianos were big purchase luxury items, yet huge numbers of
people in the merchant and genteel classes had them as
their primary entertainment device. Well temperaments were
just starting to appear on the scene. A clever piano maker
could cash in big time with their super expressive pianos
"tuned with our exclusive patented tuning -- available
only through our own certified tuning technicians in
Boston, Philadelphia and London." Celebrity endorsements
were inevitable too: "As a composer of popular operettas I
only rely upon Valotti and Young pianos with the exclusive
patented Valotti and Young Well Temperament Tuning System
-- the best and only tuning you'll ever need. Why settle
for the drivel being made by the indiscriminate when you
can have the very best!" "Now you can have in your home
a piano with the very same tuning as used by Mr. Magnus
Nomina."

- Jeff

Disclaimer: "The above statements are only hypothesis."

--- In tuning@y..., "J Scott" <xjscott@e...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_19941.html#19949
>
>
> Hm. Yeah but isn't it true that there is a patent
> category for musical tunings?
>
> A good tuning has to be invented and designed by a clever
> and artistic person who knows her/his math. If it was as
> easy as coming up with a song title, how come there aren't
> 10 million tunings? When the US patent system was
> invented, tunings could be *big* business! Meantone was
> showing her age. (Can we agree that tunings are feminine
> since they are temperamental -- ah ho ho, I kill me! :->)
> Pianos were big purchase luxury items, yet huge numbers of
> people in the merchant and genteel classes had them as
> their primary entertainment device. Well temperaments were
> just starting to appear on the scene. A clever piano maker
> could cash in big time with their super expressive pianos
> "tuned with our exclusive patented tuning -- available
> only through our own certified tuning technicians in
> Boston, Philadelphia and London." Celebrity endorsements
> were inevitable too: "As a composer of popular operettas I
> only rely upon Valotti and Young pianos with the exclusive
> patented Valotti and Young Well Temperament Tuning System
> -- the best and only tuning you'll ever need. Why settle
> for the drivel being made by the indiscriminate when you
> can have the very best!" "Now you can have in your home
> a piano with the very same tuning as used by Mr. Magnus
> Nomina."
>
> - Jeff
>
> Disclaimer: "The above statements are only hypothesis."

Good one... Jeff!

_______ ______ _____ _____ _
Joseph Pehrson

Hi Joseph!

Me:

>> ...isn't it true that there is a patent
>> category for musical tunings?

>> Disclaimer: "The above statements are only hypotheses."

Joseph:

> Good one... Jeff!

Hey Joe, I am having difficulty parsing that
ambiguous statement. What aspect of my post is a good one
and in what way? Do you mean I made a good point or that
you think I am pulling your leg or something else?
Although I put in that 'hypothesis disclaimer'...

+-------------------------------------------------------
|Sidebar: Hypothesis vs. Theory
+-------------------------------------------------------
|Which I think was inspired by your use of a theory
|disclaimer -- but I think that 'theory' is incorrect as
|far as its scientific meaning goes -- 'hypothesis' is a
|_possibility_ that *hasn't been tested* whereas a theory
|is a hypothesis that *has* been tested and no
|counterexamples have been found.)
+-------------------------------------------------------

...I am quite serious about the patentable tuning thing
and the economics of it all. And I do believe that if you
can patent a chair with a bell attached to the side for
use in calling your servants, you should definately be
able to patent tunings which are a lot more work in terms
of desigcn and cleverness. (The issue of whether *either*
should be patentable is a different issue.)

Of course enforcing tuning patents nowadays might be
well-nigh impossible, just as it was for patented chairs
with bells 150 years ago. But doing so could be a helluva
lot of fun from a vanity standpoint!!

And patents only last 17 years so the worst case scenario
(meganational tuning consortiums having the force of law
to tell us what we can and cannot compose) is not too
bad.... {BEGIN OT] Although they are trying to increase
this length dramatically by international treaty. Since
international law that is ratified as a treaty is legally
equivalent to a Constitutional Amendment in the US, this
could be a serious problem in many areas. By to way, to be
truly terrified by this whole treaty thing, go read the
ratified GATT treaty then check out the policing,
regulatory and legislative powers granted to the WTO --
folks, this document supercedes the US Constitution
because it is a treaty! The entire Bill of Rights has been
nullified and it is only a matter of time before the US
Supreme Court confirms that! Your Congressmen who passed
this BS are traitors who should hanged if I wasn't a
pacifist! [END OT]

Hey -- the May 14, 1996 / June 30, 1994 Yamaha patent on
19 tone equal temperament (US5516981: "Musical instrument
tuned in nineteen note temperament scale") will run out in
2013 so we can start using it then without licensing
fees!!! (No kidding - they also patented the standard
historical 19 note split key keyboard and put what could
be a diagram of a 16th century instrument in their patent
application as if no one had ever seen such a thing
before!! Be sure to check out their patent claims on the
19tET trumpet, flute and guitar!!!!)

- Jeff

Disclaimer: "Although the above is true to the best of my
knowledge and limited understanding, I am not a licensed
attorney and none of this should be construed as legal
advice. Consult an attorney before proceeding."

Appendix:

Don't worry friends, Yamaha will never be able to enforce
their claim since their claim that there was no prior art
can easily shown to be false.

And it is a really good thing that such a manufacturer of
really great instruments (rather than musical toys) has an
interest in alternative tunings.

However it is likely that all this means is that if any
little guys try to resurrect the split key keyboard,
they'll get their pants sued off by Yamaha. I just wish
Yamaha would get off their butt and use their damn patent
because I would start saving immediately to buy a cool
19-tone split key MIDI keybord, especially if it had
Yamaha's smooth and fast as a harpsichord key action
combined with the ergonomically far superior Roland style
lateral pitch bend lever...)

--- In tuning@y..., "J Scott" <xjscott@e...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_19941.html#19958

> Hi Joseph!
>
> Me:
>
> >> ...isn't it true that there is a patent
> >> category for musical tunings?
>
> >> Disclaimer: "The above statements are only hypotheses."
>
> Joseph:
>
> > Good one... Jeff!
>
> Hey Joe, I am having difficulty parsing that
> ambiguous statement. What aspect of my post is a good one
> and in what way? Do you mean I made a good point or that
> you think I am pulling your leg or something else?
> Although I put in that 'hypothesis disclaimer'...
>

I think there is virtually no question that one cannot patent a
tuning. If it were not the case, don't you think someone would have
tried to patent 12-tET??

Someone can call Volunteer Lawyers for the Arts or a copyright lawyer
to find out for certain... (I have neither the time nor the interest
at the moment) but I have never heard of such a thing...

best,

_________ _____ >>>...____))))+++
Joseph Pehrson

The above post, like science, is of questionable veracity...

La Monte Young told me, when I worked as an archivist for him, that one could
not legally patent a tuning. Besides the huge expense for patents anyway, it
seemed to me a strange utterance. But it does explain why La Monte kept
precise tuning information for his works hidden. That is, until Kyle Gann
used his ears to remove the veils.

Johnny Reinhard

--- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:

/tuning/topicId_19941.html#19963

> La Monte Young told me, when I worked as an archivist for him, that
one could not legally patent a tuning. Besides the huge expense for
patents anyway, it seemed to me a strange utterance. But it does
explain why La Monte kept precise tuning information for his works
hidden. That is, until Kyle Gann used his ears to remove the veils.
>
> Johnny Reinhard

Thanks, Johnny. I am certain this is correct, and La Monte Young
would certainly be a person who would know about it...

__________ _______ _____
Joseph Pehrson

When i was interviewing him in November, I mentioned to Pandit Young that we had done extensive tests of his installations
here in Florida after the Kyle Gann article :Outer edges of consonance; He smiled, nodded and then slowly looked at Marian.

I mentioned to him that we used Soundforge to generate the 16 some odd sines for what i called "the modified ocelot"
as i used the basic frequencies from "The Ocelot........" then placed the sines into ACID and looped the whole shebang, i then added
some of my favorite freqs

I do not blame him one bit.

Pat Pagano, Director
South East Just Intonation Society
http://indians.australians.com/meherbaba/
http://www.screwmusicforever.com/SHREESWIFT/
----- Original Message -----
From: Afmmjr@aol.com
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 3:06 PM
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Remark about copyrights in music

La Monte Young told me, when I worked as an archivist for him, that one could
not legally patent a tuning. Besides the huge expense for patents anyway, it
seemed to me a strange utterance. But it does explain why La Monte kept
precise tuning information for his works hidden. That is, until Kyle Gann
used his ears to remove the veils.

Johnny Reinhard
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I see the terms Bohlen-Pierce, Werckmiester etc....
why do you all fear the Pagano-Beardsley scale?

Do i have to be dead for you all to appreciate my tuning genius???!!!!

hahahaha

love and light to all

Pat Pagano, Director
South East Just Intonation Society
http://indians.australians.com/meherbaba/
http://www.screwmusicforever.com/SHREESWIFT/