interesting question

My wife just asked me an interesting question that I can't
answer....(2 demerits...)

What is the reaction of a person who has "perfect pitch" to just
intonation?

I'm assuming that so-called "perfect pitch" is a LEARNED response to
12-tET... or *IS* it??

Any studies been done of such individuals with alternate tunings??

What happens??

__________ ______ ____
Joseph Pehrson

>What is the reaction of a person who has "perfect pitch" to just
>intonation?
>
>I'm assuming that so-called "perfect pitch" is a LEARNED response to
>12-tET... or *IS* it??
Nope, at least, not necessarily. My ability has nothing to do with tunings,
it is simply, a nearly literal memory for sound. Of course, as with any
human skill, it has its limit as to "absoluteness." Exposure is also a
factor. Some sounds to which I've been exposed more than others, such at
electronic test signals or, say, the A and C of our standard pitch, I can
nail with greater accuracy than, say the frequency of an A on a 15th
century Italian organ, but even that sort of thing will stay in my memory
with, I'd guess, an error of no more than 2%. Just a guess, though.
Jay
>Any studies been done of such individuals with alternate tunings??
>
>What happens??
>
>__________ ______ ____
>Joseph Pehrson
>
>
>
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At 06:58 AM 2/28/01 -0700, you wrote:
>>What is the reaction of a person who has "perfect pitch" to just
>>intonation?
>>
>>I'm assuming that so-called "perfect pitch" is a LEARNED response to
>>12-tET... or *IS* it??
>>Any studies been done of such individuals with alternate tunings??
>>
>>What happens??
Thanks, Ed, for those further clarifications. There's also the deleterious
effect of the amount of exposure. I've tried a few time, tuning a
temperament by going up the series of 12 notes and relying on my sense of
pitch. Yeah, it was all over the map! Myh Middle C and A were within 1 hz,
but that, only after giving my ears a rest and trying to correct the thing.
Otherwise, trying to tune a temperament like that without a break, well,
the tin content of the ear increases dramatically.
Jay
>>__________ ______ ____
>>Joseph Pehrson
>>
>>
>>
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--- In tuning@y..., Jay Williams <jaywill@t...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_19530.html#19543

> >What is the reaction of a person who has "perfect pitch" to just
> >intonation?
> >
> >I'm assuming that so-called "perfect pitch" is a LEARNED response
to
> >12-tET... or *IS* it??

> Nope, at least, not necessarily. My ability has nothing to do with
tunings,it is simply, a nearly literal memory for sound. Of course,
as with any human skill, it has its limit as to "absoluteness."
Exposure is also a factor.

Well, I guess that makes sense... but how "flexible" is the
"classifying" process?? In other words, if you were to hear an "E"
which is a 5/4, do you still think "E" based upon your 12-tET
experience, or is that irrelevant...??

Also, of course, we have to take into account that you are INTERESTED
in alternate tunings. A musician with perfect pitch who has ONLY
encountered 12-tET MIGHT have trouble with them, yes??

I'm just asking... I don't know...

_________ _____ _____ ____
Joseph Pehrson

The above is theory and, therefore, quite possibly is very wrong.

At 03:09 PM 2/28/01 -0000, you wrote:
>--- In tuning@y..., Jay Williams <jaywill@t...> wrote:
>
>> Nope, at least, not necessarily. My ability has nothing to do with
>tunings,it is simply, a nearly literal memory for sound. Of course,
>as with any human skill, it has its limit as to "absoluteness."
>Exposure is also a factor.
>
>Well, I guess that makes sense... but how "flexible" is the
>"classifying" process?? In other words, if you were to hear an "E"
>which is a 5/4, do you still think "E" based upon your 12-tET
>experience, or is that irrelevant...??
Not sure. I think it varies with different folks. Thing is, I just always
loved sounds for their own sakes, so I was "cataloguing" the specifics of
anything from birds to jack hammers along with pianos. My sister, though,
has functional pitch recognition only for piano sounds, and I bet they're
pretty much geared to 12-tet. I think she hears that an intonation
difference has happened, but I seriously doubt she could tellya what it is.

>Also, of course, we have to take into account that you are INTERESTED
>in alternate tunings. A musician with perfect pitch who has ONLY
>encountered 12-tET MIGHT have trouble with them, yes??
Quite so.
Jay
>I'm

--- In tuning@y..., Jay Williams <jaywill@t...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_19530.html#19548

> Not sure. I think it varies with different folks. Thing is, I just
always loved sounds for their own sakes, so I was "cataloguing" the
specifics of anything from birds to jack hammers

Jay!

Yo be a "sampling machine..."

______ _____ _____ ___
Joseph Pehrson

The above *IS* wrong...

At 03:22 PM 2/28/01 -0000, you wrote:
>Yo be a "sampling machine..."
Well, maybe, but with an old analog tybe-type oscillator for a frequency
standard, not a crystal. <grin>
Jay
>
>______ _____ _____ ___
>Joseph Pehrson
>
>The above *IS* wrong...
>
>
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On Wed, 28 Feb 2001 05:27:09 -0000, jpehrson@rcn.com wrote:

>My wife just asked me an interesting question that I can't
>answer....(2 demerits...)
>
>What is the reaction of a person who has "perfect pitch" to just
>intonation?
>
>I'm assuming that so-called "perfect pitch" is a LEARNED response to
>12-tET... or *IS* it??

I learned on an old piano that happened to have been tuned a quarter tone
flat. When my family finally got a new piano, I could easily tell the
difference. Even today, I still think a C quarter-tone flat sounds more
like a C than a C quarter-tone sharp. 256 Hz is a perfectly good C as far
as I can tell, but it _is_ just noticeably flat. So my experience has
probably blurred my perception of pitches somewhat. If I practiced, I could
probably identify pitches to within a quarter tone, but distinctions finer
than that just sound like slight variations of the same note. Both 9/8 and
10/9 above C sound like a D; the only way I can tell the difference is to
hear one after the other.

The reaction of people with perfect pitch is usually
"stop that, it will ruin my ear"

Pat Pagano, Director
South East Just Intonation Society
http://indians.australians.com/meherbaba/
http://www.screwmusicforever.com/SHREESWIFT/
----- Original Message -----
From: Herman Miller <hmiller@IO.COM>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 10:34 PM
Subject: Re: [tuning] interesting question

> On Wed, 28 Feb 2001 05:27:09 -0000, jpehrson@rcn.com wrote:
>
> >My wife just asked me an interesting question that I can't
> >answer....(2 demerits...)
> >
> >What is the reaction of a person who has "perfect pitch" to just
> >intonation?
> >
> >I'm assuming that so-called "perfect pitch" is a LEARNED response to
> >12-tET... or *IS* it??
>
> I learned on an old piano that happened to have been tuned a quarter tone
> flat. When my family finally got a new piano, I could easily tell the
> difference. Even today, I still think a C quarter-tone flat sounds more
> like a C than a C quarter-tone sharp. 256 Hz is a perfectly good C as far
> as I can tell, but it _is_ just noticeably flat. So my experience has
> probably blurred my perception of pitches somewhat. If I practiced, I
could
> probably identify pitches to within a quarter tone, but distinctions finer
> than that just sound like slight variations of the same note. Both 9/8 and
> 10/9 above C sound like a D; the only way I can tell the difference is to
> hear one after the other.
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
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>
>

--- In tuning@y..., Herman Miller <hmiller@I...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_19530.html#19577

but distinctions
finer than that just sound like slight variations of the same note.
Both 9/8 and 10/9 above C sound like a D; the only way I can tell the
difference is to hear one after the other.

Thanks, Herman, for your "take" on this question...

______ ______ _____ ___
Joseph Pehrson

--- In tuning@y..., "shreeswifty" <ppagano@b...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_19530.html#19579

> The reaction of people with perfect pitch is usually
> "stop that, it will ruin my ear"
>

Thanks, Swifty... I thought I had "heard" that someplace... maybe
Johnny Reinhard was talking about it...

________ _______ _____
Joseph Pehrson

Herman Miller wrote:

> I learned on an old piano that happened to have been tuned a quarter tone
> flat. When my family finally got a new piano, I could easily tell the
> difference. Even today, I still think a C quarter-tone flat sounds more
> like a C than a C quarter-tone sharp. 256 Hz is a perfectly good C as far
> as I can tell, but it _is_ just noticeably flat. So my experience has
> probably blurred my perception of pitches somewhat. If I practiced, I could
> probably identify pitches to within a quarter tone, but distinctions finer
> than that just sound like slight variations of the same note. Both 9/8 and
> 10/9 above C sound like a D; the only way I can tell the difference is to
> hear one after the other.

This topic of identifiable tones is an interesting one. What I'm interested in are the singable
tones. At the end of W. A. Mathieu's excellent Harmonic Experience, a good bridging text for
12-tetters, a glossary of singable tones is given, 36 in all, not counting equal tempered half
steps and quarter tones that split various just intervals. When I first saw this I said something
unrepeatable and went on to try to sing some of them against a drone. I'm still at it and probably
will be for the rest of my present incarnation. I know now that it would take supreme skill to be
able to produce these tones at will against a drone, C or Sa, as you wish.

Which is precisely my point. A lot of discussion has taken place on this list regarding the
perception of various diads. I can , and I'm sure most of you could, tell on hearing in comparison
that a 7:6 is ever so slightly flatter than a 75:64, about 7 cents in fact. But how many of us
could spontaneously pitch these two vocally against a drone? (Please don't say you all can or I'll
have a self-esteem problem). Although none of this is particularly valid in a scientific
experimental set-up sense I often wonder if a truer measure of the perception of pitch might be
the ability to produce. It's like native or foreign language competence. You have a passive
vocabulary (syntax, etc.) , or that which you recognise which far exceeds your active vocabulary
or that which you can utter. If anyone has done any research into the musical equivalent of this
I'd be grateful for a lead or two.

And it's such a shame to see Paul leave, albeit temporarily. His scholarship, discrimination and
ruthless spirit of inquiry have inspired me immensely. Like the farmer who wanted to win the Nobel
Prize he was out standing in his field ....... :-)

On Thu, 01 Mar 2001 21:20:30 +0000, Alison Monteith
<alison.monteith3@which.net> wrote:

>Which is precisely my point. A lot of discussion has taken place on this list regarding the
>perception of various diads. I can , and I'm sure most of you could, tell on hearing in comparison
>that a 7:6 is ever so slightly flatter than a 75:64, about 7 cents in fact. But how many of us
>could spontaneously pitch these two vocally against a drone?

I'd be lucky if I could sing a *unison* against a drone. But it would be an
interesting experiment to see if I could train myself to produce accurate
pitches with my WX7 (MIDI wind controller).

Herman Miller wrote:

> I'd be lucky if I could sing a *unison* against a drone.

Sorry to wallow in another's misfortune but that makes me feel a bit better : -)

Alison!
I will agree that most people would find it hard to sing a 9/8 then
a 10/9 above a drone on command. In a musical context though the
dynamics of a melodic line can make such things happen without it being
a conscious choice. Boomsliter and Creel showed how commatic shifts are
common in even simple melodies. Unfortunately, their research was cut
short before they really carried their idea further. As far as singing
unison, if one has a good tuner that tells you where you are compared to
the pitch, one gets used to hearing what "locking in" sounds like and it
becomes unmistakable. Such distinctions of commas are common in ragas.

It just so happens that I am in the process of putting up the
bagpipe tunings of Theodore Podnos. Including a proposed tuning for the
highland pipes by McDonald Wilson. (Erv's family name)

It just so happens that I played a brief cut from the Bothy band on
the radio on Wednesday, which included many of the great musicians you
have mentioned. Have you heard the recording of the daughter of the
Domhnaill's? I have only seen it and her name escapes me for the moment.

Alison Monteith wrote:

>
>
> Herman Miller wrote:
>
> > I'd be lucky if I could sing a *unison* against a drone.
>
> Sorry to wallow in another's misfortune but that makes me feel a bit
> better : -)
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

Kraig Grady wrote:

>
> It just so happens that I am in the process of putting up the
> bagpipe tunings of Theodore Podnos. Including a proposed tuning for
> the highland pipes by McDonald Wilson. (Erv's family name)
>
> It just so happens that I played a brief cut from the Bothy band
> on the radio on Wednesday, which included many of the great musicians
> you have mentioned. Have you heard the recording of the daughter of
> the Domhnaill's? I have only seen it and her name escapes me for the
> moment.
>

Hello Kraig

Just caught the sneak preview in time. I'll have a go at figuring it out
. I wonder how this tuning would cross over to other instruments.
It just struck me that there are a couple of institutions here that
might be interested in your piping research. Both are based in Glasgow
(Scotland as opposed to Iowa or Utah or whatever). The first is the
Piping Centre at www.thepipingcentre.co.uk.
They might even have done some research of their own. I imagine them to
be quite conservative but fiendishly dedicated to their craft. The other
is the Scottish Music Information Centre (SMIC) at www.smic.org.uk .
They are a clearing house and information centre for all genres of
Scottish music and might hold databases of research and possible links.

To my shame I am quite ignorant of Highland pipe tuning though I have a
big repertoire of pieces arranged for guitar. I know that the thirds are
unusual and I often find the octaves to be compressed in some way but
maybe that's just the playing of the journeymen on the streets of
Edinburgh.

The Dhomnaill daughter is Maighread Ni Dhomnaill and she had a Christmas
song with Donal Lunny called Third Carol For Christmas Day. No doubt
another fine young musician from the Emerald Isle.