Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning "The Cliff"

Dear All,

Right now, although the mathematical part of my mind (one of my favourite
bits)
is fascinated by the wonderful constructions envisioned, FAQd, and
constructively controversialised
on the list (and me too, I've designed scales for improvising in up to
13-limit
so far), an issue I'm also much concerned with right now is the process
where
the numbers and the technology and instrument design/speculation stops and
the
creative or spiritual side comes in.

QUESTIONS:

1)What is your take on creative work, in particular the process of initial
ideas/forms leading to your eventual adoption of a direction, scale, track
or album?

2)How important for you are conscious ideas from previous projects, themes
from previous work or tunings/analyses, and how much do you "jump off the
cliff" when it comes to launching into creation?

(Through playing music (on Turkish) for Sufi meditation groups in the mid
70s, it has seemed to me from that point very possible to create with much
less pre-thought).

3. How large of a part does improvisation play in your creative process,
and inform of the qualities of a given tuning system?

gracious greetings

Lawrence Ball

"The Creative spirit of the list?"
"The Aerodynamics Of Intuition?"

🔗jpehrson@rcn.com

--- In tuning@y..., "Lawrence Ball" <Lawrenceball@p...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_19290.html#19290

> Dear All,
>
>
> QUESTIONS:
>
> 1)What is your take on creative work, in particular the process of
initial ideas/forms leading to your eventual adoption of a direction,
scale, track or album?
>

Hello Lawrence. Thank you so much for your interesting commentary.
I would like to take a somewhat "heretical" viewpoint and state that
I don't believe one's forms or previous music leads one to a
particular scale at all...except in the most general sense that one
feels a "need" for "something different" from 12-tET due to its
overuse.

I believe, from my admittedly limited experience, that it goes the
OTHER way. One is presented with a "given," a certain scale, a
certain set of conditions or restrictions and THEN one fits one's
previous musical experiences, both conscious and unconscious into the
"given" framework...

> 2)How important for you are conscious ideas from previous projects,
themes from previous work or tunings/analyses, and how much do you
"jump off the cliff" when it comes to launching into creation?
>

Someone who has been composing say 30 years CAN'T really jump off the
cliff. He's already off it! I mean, there is much SUBCONSCIOUS
material and methodology in the gray membrane and it doesn't go away
so easily! For those with a bit more "traditional" bent, this is
what, ultimately results in the "style" of the music. I would like
to think, for example, that my own music would be recognizable in
12-tET, 19-tET, 19-un-edo-just, 6-note hexany, whatever... Maybe
it's not true, but I would like to think that! (Some have said they
find it so...) However, as I have mentioned before, more
"experimental" composers, such as John Cage like to think they are
starting completely from a tabula rasa every time they sit down to a
blanksheet of music paper, or whatever is being used. Can they do
that? I think not, but some wouldn't ask me for my opinion, or care
what I ventured even if they *DID* hear my opinion. I'm not
complaining... Why *should* they...?

> (Through playing music (on Turkish) for Sufi meditation groups in
the mid 70s, it has seemed to me from that point very possible to
create with much less pre-thought).
>

It's possible to do a whole lot with very little thought. Most
people do that... Seriously, though... there is so much subconscious
"stuff" back there, especially if one has been composing for awhile,
that the CONSCIOUS "pre-thought" that you are talking about may not
be as significant as the "pre-thought" that your brain synapses or
whatever remember from your prior composing!

> 3. How large of a part does improvisation play in your creative
process, and inform of the qualities of a given tuning system?
>

Again, improvisation does not necessarily have to be "of the moment."
Generally speaking, when I am composing, I do not improvise. I
listen to the scale carefully and then pull "our of the air" as it
were the pitches I want. I hear them in my HEAD first... They're in
there because of all the composing I have done in the past... and I
can readily ADAPT my previous 12-tET work to the new scales... the
thinking just needs to be "adjusted" a bit... and that's the "fun"
part, since I am so sick and tired of 12-tET...

___________ ______ _____ _
Joseph Pehrson

🔗shreeswifty <ppagano@bellsouth.net>

1.)Why do you choose to stop @ 13 ?
I have a similar vibe but chose to go to 17 for the 17/16 (shankar's SA)
and then on to 31 for the Major 7
2.) Protecting the old ways from being abused protecting the new ways for me
and for you.
Well the crux of the biscuit is the apostrophe ---so one must have a
Conceptual continuity.
3.) Improvisation is a tricky subject
i recommend "no sound is innocent" by Eddie Prevost
for a proper mindset.
i think that preparing to improvise is jazz hell IMHO
I like Maps

Pat Pagano, Director
South East Just Intonation Society
http://indians.australians.com/meherbaba/
http://www.screwmusicforever.com/SHREESWIFT/
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence Ball <Lawrenceball@planettree.demon.co.uk>
To: tuning <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 6:23 PM
Subject: [tuning] "The Cliff" - how do you deal with free fall?

> Dear All,
>
> Right now, although the mathematical part of my mind (one of my favourite
> bits)
> is fascinated by the wonderful constructions envisioned, FAQd, and
> constructively controversialised
> on the list (and me too, I've designed scales for improvising in up to
> 13-limit
> so far), an issue I'm also much concerned with right now is the process
> where
> the numbers and the technology and instrument design/speculation stops and
> the
> creative or spiritual side comes in.
>
> QUESTIONS:
>
> 1)What is your take on creative work, in particular the process of initial
> ideas/forms leading to your eventual adoption of a direction, scale, track
> or album?
>
> 2)How important for you are conscious ideas from previous projects, themes
> from previous work or tunings/analyses, and how much do you "jump off the
> cliff" when it comes to launching into creation?
>
> (Through playing music (on Turkish) for Sufi meditation groups in the mid
> 70s, it has seemed to me from that point very possible to create with much
> less pre-thought).
>
> 3. How large of a part does improvisation play in your creative process,
> and inform of the qualities of a given tuning system?
>
> gracious greetings
>
> Lawrence Ball
>
> "The Creative spirit of the list?"
> "The Aerodynamics Of Intuition?"
>
>
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>
>
>

🔗ligonj@northstate.net

--- In tuning@y..., "Lawrence Ball" <Lawrenceball@p...> wrote:
> Dear All,
>
> Right now, although the mathematical part of my mind (one of my
favourite
> bits)
> is fascinated by the wonderful constructions envisioned, FAQd, and
> constructively controversialised
> on the list (and me too, I've designed scales for improvising in up
to
> 13-limit
> so far), an issue I'm also much concerned with right now is the
process
> where
> the numbers and the technology and instrument design/speculation
stops and
> the
> creative or spiritual side comes in.

Lawrence,

Hello! I would say that I also find great resonance with you in
seeing the full cycle of creation come about. It's a sort of Creative
Quadernity here: math, sound design, creative direction and the
mysterious spiritual element!

> QUESTIONS:
>
> 1)What is your take on creative work, in particular the process of
initial
> ideas/forms leading to your eventual adoption of a direction,
scale, track
> or album?

If I answer this in a literal way, I'd say that my musical concepts
can originate from a number of points:

1. Inspired by the theory behind the particular scale under
consideration.
2. Rhythmic concepts. These days my focus has returned to deeper
exploration of prime poly-meters.
3. Melody, which seems to naturally emanate from a given tuning
system.
4. Harmonies resulting from melodic simultaneities on different
timbres.
5. Timbres alone sometimes inspire the direction of a composition. A
good example of this is a piece I'm working on now, with bowed gong
harmonics (will have choir singing in spectra scales).
6. Wild flights of musical fantasy and conceptual creation. I always
liked Zappa's "conceptual continuity", and like to conceive of
unifying concepts for entire suites of compositions.

If I answer in a less literal way, I have to say that it is entirely
mysterious how it all fuses into the moment of musical creation.
Sometimes I feel varying degrees and proportions of influence over
the direction of compositions and suites, coming from all of the
above basic elements, but it is the ultimate process of how it is all
unified into the final act of music creations, which almost seems to
be going on outside of the control of my conscious mind. I fancy that
the facet of our consciousness which drives the cycle of musical
creation through to its final fulfillment, deals little with the
rational/organizational side. It's the union of the rational (which
dutifully performs the "dirty" work in a collaboration toward music),
and the "non"-rational, which takes blissful flights from the cliffs,
that makes it all reach the final stages. It's almost as though there
are complimentary forces at work within ourselves, and the end
product of the union of the creative poles is - music.

> 2)How important for you are conscious ideas from previous projects,
themes
> from previous work or tunings/analyses, and how much do you "jump
off the
> cliff" when it comes to launching into creation?

It seems for me, that during each creative phase, something new is
revealed, which always leads into the next area of tuning theory and
musical investigation. The first tunings I ever tried were equal
temperaments (24, 36, 19, 31), which led to just intonations, then
NJNE..etc, now spectral temperaments, which are totally dependent
upon the spectra of the instrumental ensembles used in each
composition.

Truthfully, I must say that allot of time-consuming planning on the
level of tuning theory, and sound design must happen leading up to
the moment where I can take flight from the cliff tops. But when I
get to this point; where all is tuned and timbres in place for music
creation, I proceed largely without preconceptions. This way I allow
my music making sensibilities to dictate the direction in a way that
my rational mind (the organizer of the magic moment) would not allow.
Whatever it is that "takes over" in the moment - that "inner" ear -
is what seems to reveal the soul of a tuning for me. In a way it's
laughable to try to speak about the ineffable experience of how one
writes a compelling melody, chord progression or complete music
compositions, but all that it takes before the creation begins
(theory, sound design, etc), totally takes a back seat when it's time
to play and compose. One must call on other forces for this!

> (Through playing music (on Turkish) for Sufi meditation groups in
the mid
> 70s, it has seemed to me from that point very possible to create
with much
> less pre-thought).
> 3. How large of a part does improvisation play in your creative
process,
> and inform of the qualities of a given tuning system?

This is a very interesting question - almost as if you were thinking
my thoughts! It is hugely important, and it is from this activity
that the musical nature of scales are revealed for me. For instance,
in a scenario where I am improvising in a JI scale, I may be
accompanied by a harmonic drone (similar in sound and purpose to that
of the tamboura in Indian music), and perhaps a little Bodhran, Tar
or Riq; and when I place the tuning into this multi-dimensional space
where the inspiration of rhythmic motion and timbre come into play,
then it takes on a life and energy all its own. As above, at this
point there is "less pre-thought" - all of that has happened leading
up to the moment of the improvisation and underlies it. When the muse
speaks though, it is in the language of music and emotions.

> "The Creative spirit of the list?"

Absolutely! Our life blood! We do see fresh fruit being born from
the union of math and music - bliss. I say let's continue to nurture
the tree!

> "The Aerodynamics Of Intuition?"

The fuel for all discovery.

Thanks for this rare post,

Jacky Ligon

🔗jpehrson@rcn.com

🔗ligonj@northstate.net

--- In tuning@y..., jpehrson@r... wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., ligonj@n... wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_19290.html#19463
>
> Hi Jacky! (!!!!)
>
> As usual, I'm at great empathy with your creative posts...

Thanks! Same here.

>
> > unified into the final act of music creations, which almost seems
> to be going on outside of the control of my conscious mind. I fancy
> that the facet of our consciousness which drives the cycle of
> musical creation through to its final fulfillment, deals little
with
> the rational/organizational side.
>
> You didn't actually mention the word "memory," but I am certain it
is
> implied in your post... "Memory" (no, please no one start singing
> "Cats" if you will) takes various forms and, most probably, is
> somewhere between the conscious and subconscious. Probably a lot
of
> the work is done while we are sleeping. That's
great "multitasking"
> as far as I am concerned...

I completely agree here! Many nights I will go to sleep in
contemplation of some creative question - theoretical/musical - and
the next day, the answer will be revealed.

Or even having struggled with performing some difficult musical
passages, and then coming back the next morning and being able to
play it like you had been doing it for years.

This is an interesting suggestion, and verifiable on a personal level.
Music of Dreams? That we may work on music and theory while sleeping
really does speak to your "Memory" and my feeling of something larger
than feeble ego consciousness controlling all. It does in the end
become quite difficult to describe it.

I like Jung's analogy of consciousness being like a light shining on
the area of focus (major paraphrase). It is the effort to shine the
light in the corners which interests me most.

Are you familiar with Dali's practice of working in half-conscious
states?

I do enjoy quite modal improvisations in the morning.

Thanks,

Jacky Ligon

🔗jpehrson@rcn.com

🔗ligonj@northstate.net

🔗jpehrson@rcn.com

🔗Seth Austen <klezmusic@earthlink.net>

on 2/26/01 10:38 PM, tuning@yahoogroups.com at tuning@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> From: ligonj@northstate.net

> This is an interesting suggestion, and verifiable on a personal level.
> Music of Dreams? That we may work on music and theory while sleeping
> really does speak to your "Memory" and my feeling of something larger
> than feeble ego consciousness controlling all. It does in the end
> become quite difficult to describe it.

Hi Jacky,

Over the years I've had a couple of profound dreams that pointed the
direction my music was to follow (or my life for that matter). It was all
completely obvious in the dream, I could hear the music, see how it was
played, and on what strange, exotic instrument that I'd never seen before.
Then after waking, it can take months, or even years in some cases, to learn
what is needed, be it instruments, techniques or tunings, to be able to
realize the music of the dream. And I enjoy every step, even the occasional
months of frustration in not being able to manifest what I heard/saw/felt.

> I do enjoy quite modal improvisations in the morning.

I agree, furthermore, I like modal improvs any time of day or night...

Seth

--
Seth Austen

http://www.sethausten.com
email; seth@sethausten.com

"Music is far, far older than our species. It is tens of millions of years
old, and the fact that animals as wildly divergent as whales, humans and
birds come out with similar laws for what they compose suggests to me that
there are a finite number of musical sounds that will entertain the
vertebrate brain."

Roger Payne, president of Ocean Alliance, quoted in NY Times

"The Cliff" - how do you deal with free fall?

🔗Lawrence Ball <Lawrenceball@planettree.demon.co.uk>

🔗jpehrson@rcn.com

🔗shreeswifty <ppagano@bellsouth.net>

🔗ligonj@northstate.net

🔗jpehrson@rcn.com

🔗ligonj@northstate.net

🔗jpehrson@rcn.com

🔗ligonj@northstate.net

🔗jpehrson@rcn.com

🔗Seth Austen <klezmusic@earthlink.net>

🔗MONZ@JUNO.COM

🔗MONZ@JUNO.COM