Re: [tuning] Digest Number 1110

From: jpehrson@rcn.com

"So basically, as I mentioned in my reply to Graham Breed, a system of
1/3 syntonic comma fifths at approximately 695 cents value each will
create a 19-tone scale... (??) If I'm getting this."

Yes, and if your player has any early music experience it should be a snap.

"So, certainly, the enharmonics are part of the larger picture,
including the meantones. Wow. Why don't they teach these important
concepts in music school??"

Inertia. They don't call them conservatories for nothing.

"Regarding your "interpretation" of the 19-tET enharmonic notation
into 12-tET, the only problem I have is that it really seems to
"compound" matters by going from what I see as an unfamiliar notation
BACK into a familiar one with unfamiliar elements... like different
pitches for the enharmonics."

You should try learning to think/hear in 19 instead of comparing it with 12. The
learning curve is not steep: minor third almost exact 6:5s, good major thirds
and lower leading tones, meantone fifths/fourths and major seconds, and most
importantly: augmented unisons are smaller than minor seconds. Once you have 19
under control, I'm sure you'll have a far greater appreciation for the
resourcefulness of the standard (pythagorean) notation.

"At this moment, it seems more direct for me to just use the ORIGINAL
12-tET (no enharmonics) with cents deviation values, but thank you so
much for the helpful, and rather astonishing...for me anyway...
overview!"

Fine, but if you do, please try to use the ordering I gave in my 12tet+cents
table and don't use any 12tet equivalencies. If your music uses mostly tonal
collections, you probably won't run into any conflicts anyways. At least in this
way the players or analysts can later have a better shot at recovering your
19tet structure.

By the way, if you use a notation program like Finale, you can write the score
in 19tet and then add the cent modifiers for the 12tet version just by applying
them as global articulations to each appearance of a given pitch. Or write it
in 12 with modifiers and then delete them for the 19tet score. In either way
you can then provide your players with a choice of scores.

DJW

--- In tuning@y..., "Daniel Wolf" <djwolf1@m...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_18756.html#18756

> From: jpehrson@r...
>
> "So basically, as I mentioned in my reply to Graham Breed, a system
of 1/3 syntonic comma fifths at approximately 695 cents value each
will create a 19-tone scale... (??) If I'm getting this."
>
> Yes, and if your player has any early music experience it should be
a snap.
>
>
> "So, certainly, the enharmonics are part of the larger picture,
> including the meantones. Wow. Why don't they teach these important
> concepts in music school??"
>
> Inertia. They don't call them conservatories for nothing.
>

You know, this does seem a little peculiar, though. If all these
systems were in existence in the past, what happened to them? How
did they all get thrown out so completely and 12-tET iron over
everything?? It seems a bit exceptional...

>
> "Regarding your "interpretation" of the 19-tET enharmonic notation
> into 12-tET, the only problem I have is that it really seems to
> "compound" matters by going from what I see as an unfamiliar
notation BACK into a familiar one with unfamiliar elements... like
different pitches for the enharmonics."
>
> You should try learning to think/hear in 19 instead of comparing it
with 12. The learning curve is not steep: minor third almost exact
6:5s, good major thirds and lower leading tones, meantone
fifths/fourths and major seconds, and most importantly: augmented
unisons are smaller than minor seconds. Once you have 19 under
control, I'm sure you'll have a far greater appreciation for
the resourcefulness of the standard (pythagorean) notation.
>

Well, that would certainly be the way to approach it! I still can't
get over some of the basic notational changes, like the fact that C#
is only 63 cents higher than C. Frankly, it "bothers" me to use
notation like that... but certainly that is just more inertia from my
"basic training..."

Thanks for the tips...

_________ _____ _____ _
Joseph Pehrson

Joseph wrote,

>You know, this does seem a little peculiar, though. If all these
>systems were in existence in the past, what happened to them? How
>did they all get thrown out so completely and 12-tET iron over
>everything?? It seems a bit exceptional...

I guess not enough musicians wanted to deal with 19 or 31 notes, and then
the modulatory practices of Bach and his successors required that if fewer
than 19 notes were used, it would have to be a 12-tone well-temperament . .
. which then evolved (or regressed, depending on your viewpoint) to 12-tET .
. . see Jorgenson for the latter part of the story, and Barbour for a more
general view of the history . . .