Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning shruti revisited

SHRUTI: The Indian Imbroglio.

The Leap of Faith
-----------------
Zuckerkandl: For what is musically right, musically wrong, the court
of last resort is the ear of the musician, not the physicist's
apparatus.

Euler: Can one lock up an art, like music, in laws? Euler answers
that, as for all the fine arts, it is necessary to trust the opinion
of enlightened people, therefore in music those whose ear was exerted
and who will be able to see the right laws which dictates nature.

Dr Walter Piston: Theory must follow practice ..... it is the
deductions gathered by observing the practice of composers over a
long time .... it tells not how music will be written in the future,
but how music has been written in the past.

A saying in Sanskrit: "mahaajanaaH yena gataaH sa panthaanaH" |
[That, using which, the Great have travelled, is the Path]

Indian Music is a musical world of its own, with its own principles,
its own quite characteristic "ethos", with an underlying philosophy
and metaphysics, and its own theoretical lines of research as far as
musical structure and development are concerned.

Introduction
------------
Indian music is monophonic, modal, microtonal.

It is not that the scale of seven notes was expanded into twenty-two
microtones; it is that the seven notes were selected from those
twenty-two shruti-s.

The 'Sa', the reference note, can be any of the infinite number of
frequencies. I do not recollect that the synonimity between "octave"
and "doubling of register" has been mentioned in Bharat
Muni's "Natyashastra" or Sharngdeva's "Sangitaratnakara". Since the
terms used for notes designated 'graha', 'amsa', 'nyasa swara' etc.
are not used anymore in Hindustani music, we probably may have to
revive the study of those notes, to see if they were sub-tonal
centers in a raga, in addition to the Sa. Same applies to 'vadi'
and 'samvadi'. In other words, we want to find out if something akin
to re-distribution of intervals (called 'graha-bhedam'/graha-swara-
bhedam'/'shruti-bhedam') took place. It is only then that we can
study if 'octave' had always meant 2:1. Also, it is only then that
we can study if we had cases of "extended references" in Indian
music.

Historically, there was folk music before there was classical music.
And folk music has always been replete with shruti-s, kaku, alankara-
s, gamak-s and staya-s. [We will deal with these, later]. On the
other hand, the classical music formally developed with one tone,
then two tones, then three tones, and so on ,till we had seven tones
at a late Vedic period.
The question: in Indian music, when did OCTAVE = 2:1 happen? Or, did
it?

Haresh.

🔗ligonj@northstate.net

A standing ovation for Haresh is in order!

Thanks for this Haresh!

Jacky Ligon

--- In tuning@y..., "Haresh BAKSHI" <hareshbakshi@h...> wrote:
>
> SHRUTI: The Indian Imbroglio.
>
> The Leap of Faith
> -----------------
> Zuckerkandl: For what is musically right, musically wrong, the
court
> of last resort is the ear of the musician, not the physicist's
> apparatus.
>
> Euler: Can one lock up an art, like music, in laws? Euler answers
> that, as for all the fine arts, it is necessary to trust the
opinion
> of enlightened people, therefore in music those whose ear was
exerted
> and who will be able to see the right laws which dictates nature.
>
> Dr Walter Piston: Theory must follow practice ..... it is the
> deductions gathered by observing the practice of composers over a
> long time .... it tells not how music will be written in the
future,
> but how music has been written in the past.
>
> A saying in Sanskrit: "mahaajanaaH yena gataaH sa panthaanaH" |
> [That, using which, the Great have travelled, is the Path]
>
> Indian Music is a musical world of its own, with its own
principles,
> its own quite characteristic "ethos", with an underlying philosophy
> and metaphysics, and its own theoretical lines of research as far
as
> musical structure and development are concerned.
>
> Introduction
> ------------
> Indian music is monophonic, modal, microtonal.
>
> It is not that the scale of seven notes was expanded into twenty-
two
> microtones; it is that the seven notes were selected from those
> twenty-two shruti-s.
>

🔗Dave Keenan <D.KEENAN@UQ.NET.AU>

🔗Haresh BAKSHI <hareshbakshi@hotmail.com>

SHRUTI: The Indian Imbroglio II

Derth of study of Melody
--------------------------
Paul Hindesmith: It is an astonishing fact that instruction in
composition has never developed a theory of melody.

Paul Henry Lang: A study of melody construction is almost unknown.

"Even if dissonance and consonance were completely understood, they
are fundamentally harmonic phenomenon, so an important extension to
the tuning theory would be the consideration of melodic criteria."
Ben Denckla.

"Intonation has only been theorized extensively with respect to the
role that it can play in maximizing harmonic consonance. The role of
intonation in harmonic consonance is indeed important, but the degree
of theoretical attention that has been focused on it is also due to
the fact that intonation's other roles (key coloration, melodic
meaning) are far more difficult to theorize about."

My note: Study of shruti should, among other things, explain the
melodic meaning of intonation.

SHRUTI: The "Dynamic Intonation" in Indian music
------------------------------------------------

Shruti -- the "Dynamic Intonation" -- is the way frequencies are
assigned to shruti-s in the performance of a raga. It must operate
within flexible parameters that guarantee that the basic significance
and aesthetics of a raga will be preserved. While the term "dynamic
intonation" has a different meaning in the context of Western music,
I borrowed the term as it represents the concept of shruti better
than the word 'microtone'. This is, till somebody finds a still
better term for shruti.

Language and Music
------------------

The notion that there are kshetra-s (fields) in which the `kshetrgya'
(operators) function, is not applicable to mathematics alone. It is a
generic epistemic notion which can be interpreted for any type of
particulars. What is the meaning of `field' here? What does it refer
to? Whatever it refers to, it is in a similar sense that the term has
been used in Samkhya philosophy. In communication and transfer of
information within the field it was discovered that operations (meta-
rules) yielded determinate results, such as propositions or
statements, as well as indeterminate results, such as `dhatus', the
simplest elements of propositions. As for music within the field, it
was discovered that there were determinable shruti-s, `swara-s', as
well as indeterminate `shruti-s', on which operations had to be
performed to yield `raga-s'. It must be noted that these discoveries
were not a priori, but empirical. The numerous phonetic elements with
which texts of Sanskrit grammar, such as "Siddhantakaumudi", begins
were discovered after close scrutiny of language. Similarly, the
Natyashastra describes experiments with numerous `vinas' with diverse
lengths of strings to determine the smallest difference in pitch and
thus to determine the shruti-s.

In linguistics the most significant development arose from the
realisation that momentary syllablisation of sounds have the property
of adding into phonetically and semantically meaningful utterances.
The natural question to arise was: what are the simplest phonetic and
semantic elements, and how does the process of addition of (the being
of) these simplest elements take place to become meaningful
propositions? The `siksha' and `pratishakhya' class of literature
deal with the theoretical aspects of utterances. As for semantics,
the central problem, such as in Bharatrihari's "Vakyapadeeyam", is
not how propositions become true, but how a series of sound patterns
add up in time to become meaningful. The situation in music is
similar: how do the simplest elements of sound, shruti-s, add up in
time to produce `rasa' (emotions)? Rig Pratishakhya deals elaborately
with the meta-rules, `paribhasha', of how utterances are joined
together to yield meaningful results. Bharatmuni's "Natyashastra" and
Sarangadeva's "Sangitaratnakara", among other musicological texts,
deal elaborately with the question of appropriateness of meta-rules
to 'join' shruti-s together so as to yield melodies.

In `Pindotapattiprakarana' (2.2) chapter of "Sangitaratnakara",
Sharngadeva establishes a direct relation between the semantic meta-
rules of language and music. In musical terminology the `field' is
referred to as `nada-brahman'; Sharngadeva states in this section
that language and music are the results of the operations of
different operational meta-rules on the same `nada-brahman', hence
their foundations must be similar. Rig Pratishakhya has three
classes of meta-rules (`paribhashasutra-s') applicable to language,
(a) `samanya-sutra' (universal rules), (b) `apavada-sutra' (rules for
exceptions), and (c) `nipatana-sutra' (counter-rules).

There are six major aspects of intonation in American English:
(1) New Information (2) Contrast (3) Meaning (4) Pronunciation (5)
Mood or Personality (6) Cultural Understanding. Their similarities
with the question of intonation in music is quite apparent.

The study of [the language of] Indian music involves: alankara-s
("Sangitaratnakara" Chapter I), sthaaya ("Sangitaratnakara" Chapter
II, which includes 'kaku'), and gamaka-s ("Sangitaratnakara" Chapter
II). Without these, perhaps the only singing possible is that of the
thaat-s, which are never performed on the stage.

Haresh.

🔗ligonj@northstate.net

--- In tuning@y..., "Haresh BAKSHI" <hareshbakshi@h...> wrote:
> SHRUTI: The Indian Imbroglio II
>
> Derth of study of Melody
> --------------------------
> Paul Hindesmith: It is an astonishing fact that instruction in
> composition has never developed a theory of melody.
>
> Paul Henry Lang: A study of melody construction is almost unknown.
>
> "Even if dissonance and consonance were completely understood, they
> are fundamentally harmonic phenomenon, so an important extension to
> the tuning theory would be the consideration of melodic criteria."
> Ben Denckla.
>
> the degree
> of theoretical attention that has been focused on it is also due to
> the fact that intonation's other roles (key coloration, melodic
> meaning) are far more difficult to theorize about."
>
> My note: Study of shruti should, among other things, explain the
> melodic meaning of intonation.

Haresh,

Hello! I want to say that this is singularly one of the most
profound things I've seen posted to this list in the time I've been
here. It is a dose of *reality* from the *Real World of Music
Creation*. All that you have wrote here about the importance of
melody, is precisely why I love Indian music so much!

>
> SHRUTI: The "Dynamic Intonation" in Indian music
> ------------------------------------------------
>
> Shruti -- the "Dynamic Intonation" -- is the way frequencies are
> assigned to shruti-s in the performance of a raga. It must operate
> within flexible parameters that guarantee that the basic
significance
> and aesthetics of a raga will be preserved. While the
term "dynamic
> intonation" has a different meaning in the context of Western
music,
> I borrowed the term as it represents the concept of shruti better
> than the word 'microtone'. This is, till somebody finds a still
> better term for shruti.

I think it is an entirely appropriate term, because it is what one
does to adapt to the context of a real world music scenario. Very
little about the experience of actual music making, performing or
composing full compositions, will be revealed under the microscopes
of abstract theoretical analysis. Complex sound structures which
evolve over time, defy this, and create their own order and logic. It
is an ever shifting phenomenon where the rules of the game change
drastically dependent upon context. There may be general rules of
thumb, but I've seen and heard these very rules defied by the musical
context and choice of timbres used in the music. Much of what is said
about harmonic theory in this forum has minimal value to my music,
because of the reality of the context of my own music deals with much
use of inharmonic timbres, and Melody reigns supreme for me. I'm not
usually thinking about playing a 5 note chord on a metallophone
instrument, but seek to play something which is melodically and
stylistically appropriate to the timbres and musical context under
consideration.

One reality exists in the laboratory of dyadic analysis, but when the
theorist must roll up the sleeves of his lab coat, and actually
compose a compelling piece of music, which will inspire repeated
listening, then a whole new set of challenges reveals itself, which
were just too big and bulky to fit under the microscope. A feeling of
vertigo overwhelms him and he retires for a coffee break.

The truth is that, many times abstract theoretical work is like a big
water hose, continuously spewing forth an impressive shower of
abstract concepts and numerological fantasies; and such a profusion
of this can come forward as to dwarf, or minimize efforts toward the
final goal and ultimate verification in the form of living, breathing
and evolving *MUSIC*. This will likely never be explained by pure
mathematical means, since it is an activity filled with
mathematically unquantifiable phenomenon and human emotions.

>
> Language and Music
> ------------------
> The situation in music is
> similar: how do the simplest elements of sound, shruti-s, add up in
> time to produce `rasa' (emotions)? Rig Pratishakhya deals
elaborately
> with the meta-rules, `paribhasha', of how utterances are joined
> together to yield meaningful results. Bharatmuni's "Natyashastra"
and
> Sarangadeva's "Sangitaratnakara", among other musicological texts,
> deal elaborately with the question of appropriateness of meta-rules
> to 'join' shruti-s together so as to yield melodies.

It is obvious to me that India is the historical center of the most
systematic research into melodic phenomenon. And that the emotional
quality evoked by the simplest elements is an important facet of the
music, shows quite a divining line between an approach which is
totally mathematical, and removed from the realities of actual music
creation. Emotions are an uncomfortable reality for the abstract
mathematical theorist, yet the control over them is of supreme
importance to the musican/composer.

>
> In `Pindotapattiprakarana' (2.2) chapter of "Sangitaratnakara",
> Sharngadeva establishes a direct relation between the semantic meta-
> rules of language and music. In musical terminology the `field' is
> referred to as `nada-brahman'; Sharngadeva states in this section
> that language and music are the results of the operations of
> different operational meta-rules on the same `nada-brahman', hence
> their foundations must be similar. Rig Pratishakhya has three
> classes of meta-rules (`paribhashasutra-s') applicable to language,
> (a) `samanya-sutra' (universal rules), (b) `apavada-sutra' (rules
for
> exceptions), and (c) `nipatana-sutra' (counter-rules).
>

Thank you for this amazing post Haresh. Please bring forth more about
Indian melodic concepts. It is a fresh drink of water in a desert of
Dyads.

Melody is the primal vertebrae of all music. We never hear of people
going around humming or whistling the chord progressions in music. It
is the melodic line that commits to memory, and therefore it will
always and forever reign supreme. This is why it will always remain
the most exciting facet of microtonal music creation. That good
melody defies the logic of the abstract theoretician, and is
dependent upon musical context, is all the more reason to begin to
focus on it more in our music and tuning research, and discover the
wonder and mystery of unchained music creation outside the wish
fulfillment fantasies of the mathematician/abstract theorist. What
may be true in the lab, is abstract meaninglessness until proven in
the musical context of composition, performance and recording.
Anything else remains frozen, unverified and only audible in the
speech of the theorist voice.

Jacky Ligon

By The General Rules of Thumb, Something Wicked This Way Comes.

}: )

🔗jpehrson@rcn.com

--- In tuning@y..., ligonj@n... wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "Haresh BAKSHI" <hareshbakshi@h...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_18503.html#18521

> > SHRUTI: The Indian Imbroglio II
> >
> > Derth of study of Melody
> > --------------------------
> > Paul Hindesmith: It is an astonishing fact that instruction in
> > composition has never developed a theory of melody.
> >
> > Paul Henry Lang: A study of melody construction is almost unknown.
> >

>
> Haresh,
>
> Hello! I want to say that this is singularly one of the most
> profound things I've seen posted to this list in the time I've been
> here. It is a dose of *reality* from the *Real World of Music
> Creation*. All that you have wrote here about the importance of
> melody, is precisely why I love Indian music so much!
>

Hello Jacky and Haresh!

Thank you for this interesting material. Of course, when notables
like Hindemith and Paul Henry Lang make statements, people have a
tendency to listen. It it true that the ideas of melodic
construction have lagged behind harmony in the West, mostly due to
the scientifically-based fascination with simultaneity in the Western
mentality...

HOWEVER, significant work has been undertaken to remedy this
"deficiency." Heinrich Schenker, at the turn of the century,
although some on this list don't like him, I know, and many regard
him as a "quack," was one to emphasize the line in his "urlinie."

Of course, the entire school in Fountainbleu with Nadia Boulanger
very much emphasized the "long line" and how to construct it...

One of my former teachers, Elie Siegmeister, who studied with Nadia
Boulanger, emphasizes melody VERY much in his two-volume textbook set
"Harmony and Melody." UNLIKE many of the "traditional" harmony and
melody texts (I'm thinking Piston here, although I do admire him
pretty much as a composer), Siegmeister emphasizes the craft of
composition from a COMPOSERS'S angle... This includes, MUCH,
material on melodic construction. In fact, the first book of the two
volume set [Wadsworth Publishing Company, Belmont CA] almost entirely
deals with melody, so clearly Siegmeister, and many others, found it
"underrated" in Western music.

I'm not meaning to imply that the statement that harmony is
predominant in the West is incorrect... only that a good number of
people have been well aware of this for some time and have taken
significant steps to remedy it... And, for another thing, it is a
"new" tack to composition... since harmony has been so emphasized.
Composers have been thinking about melody and ALSO about "world music
melody" in their music for some time now. Lou Harrison comes
immediately to mind, but there are many many others... And these are
PRIMARILY "Western" composers, although they use pluralistic elements.

> The truth is that, many times abstract theoretical work is like a
big water hose, continuously spewing forth an impressive shower of
> abstract concepts and numerological fantasies; and such a profusion
> of this can come forward as to dwarf, or minimize efforts toward
the final goal and ultimate verification in the form of living,
breathing and evolving *MUSIC*. This will likely never be explained
by pure mathematical means, since it is an activity filled with
mathematically unquantifiable phenomenon and human emotions.
>

I appreciate your sentiments here, Jacky, and I essentially agree
with them, but what I don't really want to see is a kind of "us
against them" mentality evolving here. There are so many different
approaches to music right on this very list, that I wouldn't want to
try to definitively determine the significance of any one person's
(or two people, for that matter!) orientation.

As for me, I am fascinated by some of the abstract concepts because
most of them eventually lead to SCALES. Let's face it... that's
usually what it's all about. Even Dan Stearns (Hi Dan!) usually ends
up with various sets of frequencies that could finally make a scale...

Then, composers can use this material and, hopefully, come up with
something, but I am certainly glad that such investigations are
taking place. In fact, I know, Jacky that you, yourself undertake
such rigorous scale investigation procedures...so, really, there
shouldn't be any kind of "dichotomy" only, as Margo Schulter usually
wisely says, a "plurality."

None of the above, Jacky, is in any way a "criticism..." Only a
couple of observations that I hope that you and possibly somebody
else, might find of interest...

_________ ______ ______
Joseph Pehrson

🔗ligonj@northstate.net

🔗jpehrson@rcn.com

--- In tuning@y..., ligonj@n... wrote:

/tuning/topicId_18503.html#18529

>
> Joseph,
>
> Thanks for this great and relevant reply, and also for the recent
> composition "Stringing".
>
> I really loved your string writing here!!!! Great use of glissandi
in the melody lines. And was that a quarter-tone I detected in the
last few bars?
>
> Very cool chords on the piano too - even if 12 tET. Thanks for
> delivering this *audible* reality.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jacky Ligon

Thanks so much, Jacky for listening... Yes, there is actually one
quarter tone in this piece, right at the very end.

No, seriously, there are a few others but, yes, they ARE
quartertones...

I wrote in the program notes that this piece, from 1999, was my last
"conventional" piece before dropping off, (or up, perhaps) into
xenharmonity...

My publisher thinks I've gone "wacko." He is decidedly NOT a
microtonal supporter... but he's been selling quite a bit of my music
of late, so, of course, he can distribute the "traditional" stuff...
(In all fairness, he does handle a couple of extensively microtonal
-- just intonation, even, pieces).

So, I really don't know where I'm going from here... thanks to all
the questions and participation on this list. You guys have really
screwed me up... :)

No, seriously, the only thing that really interests me right now are
electronic pieces in alternate tunings (Will be presented at the
upcoming Microfest!) or electronic pieces in alternate tunings that
also combine live instruments.

Actually, a really viable form right now seems to me to be a SOLO
instrument with xenharmonic tape. I'm going to do a series of such
"music minus one" pieces...

Where do I go from there?? It's anybody's (or nobody's) guess.
HOWEVER, the fact that it's such a mystery is a GOOD development.

John Cage always said that when he sat down to compose he never
wanted to know ANYTHING about what he was doing. Well, I'm not so
extreme, but the fact that the future is a dark fog means to me that
I'm exploring unknown worlds...

_______ _____ ___ __
Joseph Pehrson

🔗PERLICH@ACADIAN-ASSET.COM

Hi Jacky and Joseph and thanks for your comments. As those of you who have been on the list
for a while will know, in my search for "generalizations" of the diatonic scale, I first look at a scale to
see if it looks useful from a melodic point of view. If so, it automatically becomes an interesting
scale to me. Then, lower in importance, are the scale's harmonic properties, and lower still, its
tonal properties. But I don't usually bother to check those out if the melodic properties don't look
good or at least interesting -- since I feel melody comes first. So yes, I feel Jacky is making a
false dichotomy, particularly if he puts me on the other side from himself.

Nonetheless, I'd be surprised if even Jacky is not aurally enchanted after a few hours playing
with the Keenan/Wilson tumbling dekany, despite the fact that it is completely amelodic (or, one
might say, the melody is completely incidental and accidental, much the way harmony is in many
melodically-oriented cultures). The field of microtonality is so wide open right now that there is
much to be gained from a plurality of approaches -- melodic and harmonic, intuitive and
mathematical, etc. . . . I will continue to speak out against numerology, particularly where I feel it
amounts to potentially misleading pseudo-science, but far more important to me is that we all
work toward the goal of making more microtonal music to be listened to, cross-pollinate one
another's ideas, and ultimately lead to an overthrow of the 12-tET prison that is stifling our culture
:)

By the way, Jacky, Dave Keenan is now officially a composer -- so I think we would all
appreciate it if you chilled out with your evocations of lab coats and other implications of
villainous "anti-musicians" on this list . . . the divisiveness clearly serves the interests of music
even less than publishing lists of 6-digit prime numbers . . . ;)

🔗jpehrson@rcn.com

🔗PERLICH@ACADIAN-ASSET.COM

🔗jpehrson@rcn.com

--- In tuning@y..., PERLICH@A... wrote:

/tuning/topicId_18503.html#18551

> --- In tuning@y..., jpehrson@r... wrote:
> >
> > I fully agree, for what it's worth, that Dave Keenan's
composition well ranks with similar efforts at slowly moving harmony
as an esthetic form...
>
> Change the "speed" parameter and it's an effort at rapidly moving
harmony.
>

Oh! That it does!

> > I personally like the idea of a music with no melody as a
> > possibility. I used to dream about that years ago when I first
became interested in microtonality and the realm of "infinite"
> > possibilities. Maybe that's why I find Harmonic Entropy so
> > intriguing...
>
> Well, not following the harmonic entropy angle, I posted an idea
which would extend Dave Keenan's work to allow the listener to roam
around the infinite JI lattice, not restricted to a small
> hyperspherical shell within it (which is what Dave's program
essentially does right now). Thus instead of just hearing the same 10
notes forever, one would eventually visit an infinite number
> of different pitches, though they would always be forming
concordant JI harmonies with their immediate neighbors. I wonder what
it would take to realize this idea -- I'd be willing to dispense
> with the visuals at this point.

Hmmm... Well, that's the "encore..." What a great idea!

________ _____ ____ _
Joseph Pehrson

🔗D.Stearns <STEARNS@CAPECOD.NET>

🔗ligonj@northstate.net

🔗David Beardsley <xouoxno@virtulink.com>

jpehrson@rcn.com wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@y..., PERLICH@A... wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_18503.html#18545
>
> evocations of lab coats and other implications of
> > villainous "anti-musicians" on this list ;)
>
> That's very funny. I always knew that the "men with the white coats"
> would ultimately appear on this list!
>
> I fully agree, for what it's worth, that Dave Keenan's composition
> well ranks with similar efforts at slowly moving harmony as an
> esthetic form... think La Monte Young and/or David Beardsley. The
> fact that there is science behind it, even enhances the effect more,
> as far as I am concerned...

I missed something here. Where's Dave Keenan's music?
Where's the Real Audio or MP3 file. I can't play a MIDI file (don't ask.
it's complicated.)

> I personally like the idea of a music with no melody as a
> possibility. I used to dream about that years ago when I first became
> interested in microtonality and the realm of "infinite"
> possibilities. Maybe that's why I find Harmonic Entropy so
> intriguing...

I've been over this "the music has to have a melody bit" with
many 12tet "musicians" over the past few years. A few days ago, the new
Jeff Beck album came out, but before I heard it a friend
told me it doesn't have any melodies. I'm listening to
the cd right now and it obviously has melodies.

Years ago I was at a local concert by Johnny Winter (1985/86?) and
was hanging with a bunch of friends and acquaintances.
As usual, I was talking about my recent record purchases.
I mentioned that I had a copy of Frank Zappas Shut Up and
Play Your Guitar (at that time unreleased in the states).
Somebody said that Zappas playing wasn't melodic. Subjective?

As far as drones and melody, I think La Montes music is very melodic.
The Well Tuned Piano? The Dream House? The sum and difference tones
of DH add to the melody.

Perhaps melody is in the ear of the beholder?

As for my owm music, maybe the melody is happening
so slowly, that it isn't perceived as a melody.?

ps: New new Jeff Beck cd: I'm having problems getting past JBecks
version of Rolling and Tumbling to evaluate the whole cd.
It is amazing. The cd is called You Had It Coming.
Imogen Heaps singing on R&T is amazing, as is JB's guitar.
He should do an album of blues tunes with this singer. It rocks.

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm
* http://mp3.com/davidbeardsley

🔗Dave Keenan <D.KEENAN@UQ.NET.AU>

🔗PERLICH@ACADIAN-ASSET.COM

🔗D.Stearns <STEARNS@CAPECOD.NET>

🔗Haresh BAKSHI <hareshbakshi@hotmail.com>

🔗ligonj@northstate.net

Haresh,

Hello! It is you I must thank for what I hope will open the doors to
more disscussion of melody. I wish I could become aware of
mathematical ways to understand the melodic validity for microtonal
scales in advance, but so far, I think the best way I've found is to
actually play them!

And sometimes I find that the ones which look like they might not
work melodically, turn out to be some of the most compelling of all!
The marvel of the pattern making ability of the human mind at work I
guess. Many times I ask my self how may I make this or that work,
rather than preconceiving that it will fail based on my calculations.

Allot of times my calculations tell me one thing and my ear another,
based upon musical context (Dan Stearns 13 tET comments reminded
here).

I want to say too that the importance of rhythmic Tala cycles, would
have to equally rank in importance in my adoration of Indian
Classical Music. And I harmonize with you and Paul on this point.

Indian music is wonderful in that it doesn't always necessarily
use "4" as it's base. We've got a real "4" fetish in our culture,
which goes hand in hand with the 12 tone ET scale (the Evil Twins of
Western Music).

I'm making it a personal musical goal to explore just about anything
outside of 4 these days too. I just love the challenge of writing
melodic parts and harmonic themes in cycles other than 4. It opens a
whole new phrasing logic.

Furthermore, I've been actively using prime polymeters in my music
for years, where many musical parts and singing voices are written in
simultaneous meters. One of my new compositions "Ten Thousand
Things", has polymetrical cycles of 5, 7, 11, and 13/4, where many
percussion, singing voices and metallophones are all playing in
polymeters. These pieces begin with rhythm as their generating
concept.

Can you tell me Haresh, if Indian music has examples of polymetric
cycles? I'd love to learn about it if there are examples. We've got
so much that we can glean from the rhythmic languages of India!

Thanks,

Jacky Ligon

--- In tuning@y..., "Haresh BAKSHI" <hareshbakshi@h...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., ligonj@n... wrote:
> > --- In tuning@y..., "Haresh BAKSHI" <hareshbakshi@h...> wrote:
> > > SHRUTI: The Indian Imbroglio II
>
> ................................
>
> Hi Jacky, thanks for your remarks on Melody -- they were
> spontaneous, succinct and of great relevance for me. Paul is
> absolutely right in putting rhythm even before melody: that is the
> way music must have evolved. In fact, rhythm reigns supreme even
> today, especially in the area of popular music. The "primitive"
folk
> music also heavily depends on the beat to which is rendered a
rather
> simple, short, lilting little melodic refrain.
>
> Regards,
> Haresh.

🔗Haresh BAKSHI <hareshbakshi@hotmail.com>

--- In tuning@y..., ligonj@n... wrote:
> Haresh,
>
> Hello! It is you I must thank for what I hope will open the doors
to
> more disscussion of melody. I wish I could become aware of
> mathematical ways to understand the melodic validity for microtonal
> scales in advance, but so far, I think the best way I've found is
to
> actually play them!
>
> And sometimes I find that the ones which look like they might not
> work melodically, turn out to be some of the most compelling of all!
> The marvel of the pattern making ability of the human mind at work
I
> guess. Many times I ask my self how may I make this or that work,
> rather than preconceiving that it will fail based on my
calculations.
-------------
Hi Jacky, Very true, once again. In this connection, a very apt and
pithy expression of our sentiments comes from the following well-
known Sanskrit saying, slightly modified:
The subject [of music] is so vast, that if the oceans form the ink
reservoir, if kalpavriksha [the tree that grants any wish made while
standing under it] acts as the pen for writing, if the Earth surface
becomes available as the sheet of paper, and if Ganesha [God of
Learning] Himself goes on writing forever [about music], even then
not enough can be written.

But, as James Thurber once said, "It's better to know some of the
questions than all of the answers." So all the present (and future)
participants have started discussions about melody, harmony, and
their interrelationship. This augers well for Indian music.

Haresh.

🔗jpehrson@rcn.com

🔗David Beardsley <xouoxno@virtulink.com>

🔗Haresh BAKSHI <hareshbakshi@hotmail.com>

--- In tuning@y..., ligonj@n... wrote:
>
>
> Indian music is wonderful in that it doesn't always necessarily
> use "4" as it's base. We've got a real "4" fetish in our culture,
> which goes hand in hand with the 12 tone ET scale (the Evil Twins
of
> Western Music).
>
> I'm making it a personal musical goal to explore just about
anything
> outside of 4 these days too. I just love the challenge of writing
> melodic parts and harmonic themes in cycles other than 4. It opens
a
> whole new phrasing logic.

My exposure to Western music is very limited (I am trying to know
more -- there is SO MUCH to learn and to keep on learning). If you
mean time signatures like 2/4, 3/4, etc., then, yes, we have many
more vatiations. Like 6/4, 7/4, 10/4, 12/4, 14/4, 16/4 and so on.
Actually, we do not have the concept like X/4; we report like X/4 so
that we can convey our meaning in terms of what is common in Western
music. We do not have anything resembling 4/4, 6/8 etc. We express
the number of beats, but not the duration value, or tempo.

>
> Furthermore, I've been actively using prime polymeters in my music
> for years, where many musical parts and singing voices are written
in
> simultaneous meters. One of my new compositions "Ten Thousand
> Things", has polymetrical cycles of 5, 7, 11, and 13/4, where many
> percussion, singing voices and metallophones are all playing in
> polymeters. These pieces begin with rhythm as their generating
> concept.
>
> Can you tell me Haresh, if Indian music has examples of polymetric
> cycles? I'd love to learn about it if there are examples. We've got
> so much that we can glean from the rhythmic languages of India!

We have the concept of polymetric cycles loosely expressed in two
ways: (1) The taala-vaadya-kachehri. Here, many percussion
instruments (tabla, dholak, mridangam, naal, ghatam) are played, one
by one, to the same taala. The polymetric effect comes from the
improvisation done by each player during his turn to play. This is,
strictly, not a case of polymetric cycles because all are playing the
same taala, and the variation comes from the improvisation on the
percussion instruments. (2) Again, this is not a case of polymetric
cycles, except, perhaps, loosely. Here, during accompaniment to the
main performer, the tabla player plays the bol-s (sounds) of a taala
other than the one in which the performer is performing. For
example, the table player plays the bol-s of jhaptaala (10 beats)
while the singer is singing in teentaala (16 beats). The tabla
player, of course, adjusts the tempo of the jhaptaala so that he
correctly joins the singer on the first beat. Thus, he would play
jhaptaala at a tempo such that he completes his 10-beat cycle exactly
when the singer (now, mentally) completes his 16-beat teentaala
cycle. The skill lies in both arriving on the first beat at the same
time, usually with some telling musical phrase.
>
Regards,
Haresh.

🔗ligonj@northstate.net

--- In tuning@y..., "Haresh BAKSHI" <hareshbakshi@h...> wrote:
> My exposure to Western music is very limited (I am trying to know
> more -- there is SO MUCH to learn and to keep on learning). If you
> mean time signatures like 2/4, 3/4, etc., then, yes, we have many
> more vatiations. Like 6/4, 7/4, 10/4, 12/4, 14/4, 16/4 and so on.
> Actually, we do not have the concept like X/4; we report like X/4
so
> that we can convey our meaning in terms of what is common in
Western
> music. We do not have anything resembling 4/4, 6/8 etc. We express
> the number of beats, but not the duration value, or tempo.

My apologies for the unintended ambiguity here. What I was meaning
was a cycle of 4 beats, or in Western terms "4/4 time". A very worn
out meter in our musics, if my opinion is of any worth.

> We have the concept of polymetric cycles loosely expressed in two
> ways: (1) The taala-vaadya-kachehri. Here, many percussion
> instruments (tabla, dholak, mridangam, naal, ghatam) are played,
one
> by one, to the same taala. The polymetric effect comes from the
> improvisation done by each player during his turn to play. This
is,
> strictly, not a case of polymetric cycles because all are playing
the
> same taala, and the variation comes from the improvisation on the
> percussion instruments. (2) Again, this is not a case of polymetric
> cycles, except, perhaps, loosely. Here, during accompaniment to
the
> main performer, the tabla player plays the bol-s (sounds) of a
taala
> other than the one in which the performer is performing. For
> example, the table player plays the bol-s of jhaptaala (10 beats)
> while the singer is singing in teentaala (16 beats). The tabla
> player, of course, adjusts the tempo of the jhaptaala so that he
> correctly joins the singer on the first beat. Thus, he would play
> jhaptaala at a tempo such that he completes his 10-beat cycle
exactly
> when the singer (now, mentally) completes his 16-beat teentaala
> cycle. The skill lies in both arriving on the first beat at the
same
> time, usually with some telling musical phrase.

I have heard what you speak of here (!), and it is quite beautiful.
I think one of the most amazing displays of alternating taala,
and "playing across the bar (to put it in a crudely Western way)",
was during a recent performance I saw of Shashank, an South Indian
Bansuri virtuoso. It was just breathtaking to behold! I pride myself
in being pretty good at counting complex meters, and I could count
well through most of the taala alternations, but sometimes I would
fall out. This was a hugely inspiring concert!

Haresh, I would like to ask a few questions here to perpetuate this
wonderful thread:

1. Could you speak about the melodic techniques of "meend"
and "gamak" (forgive if spelled incorrectly), where in the course of
a raaga improvisation, the performers may use - what we might
term "glissandi" or "melisima"? What are the differences here, and is
this allowed when one is learning to sing the raagas at first?

2. I have noticed that it is becoming increasingly popular in
Indian performances in the West, to use electronic tamboura boxes,
rather than a live tamboura. How widespread is this in India, and are
there "purist" schools of thought, that may not find this acceptable?

3. What instruments do you play? Or do you sing?

4. What raagas do you enjoy most, and perhaps why?

Thanks,

Jacky Ligon

🔗Dave Keenan <D.KEENAN@UQ.NET.AU>

🔗Haresh BAKSHI <hareshbakshi@hotmail.com>

--- In tuning@y..., ligonj@n... wrote:

.........

> Haresh, I would like to ask a few questions here to perpetuate this
> wonderful thread:
>
> 1. Could you speak about the melodic techniques of "meend"
> and "gamak" (forgive if spelled incorrectly), where in the course
of
> a raaga improvisation, the performers may use - what we might
> term "glissandi" or "melisima"? What are the differences here, and
is
> this allowed when one is learning to sing the raagas at first?

"meend" and "gamaka", along with some other embellishments, form the
heart of Indian music. To enable me to discuss them in proper
perspective, allow me to take them up in a separate posting.

>
> 2. I have noticed that it is becoming increasingly popular in
> Indian performances in the West, to use electronic tamboura boxes,
> rather than a live tamboura. How widespread is this in India, and
are
> there "purist" schools of thought, that may not find this
acceptable?

The electronic tamboura is definitely unacceptable. However, now a
far better product, the DIGITAL tamboura box, is available. It is
actual tamboura sound etched into EPROM. These boxes are popular not
only here, but also in India and elsewhere. The acoustic (physical )
tamboura is still the best, but delicate, cumbersome to carry,
difficult to maintain. [I belong to the orthodox school which
believes that only acoustic tamboura is suitable].

>
> 3. What instruments do you play? Or do you sing?

I am a singer of Hindustani (North Indian) classical music, Gwalior
gharana (school). Names of my guru-s: Pandit Eknath Padgaonkar and
Ustad Gulam Kader Khan. I also teach Sitar and Tabla playing (which I
learnt long, long time ago, during the 3-year period starting when my
voice began to change). I also "play" Indian raga-s on the keyboard
(and explain all the limitations and compromises that this would
require). .

>
> 4. What raagas do you enjoy most, and perhaps why?

A very difficult question! Every singer finds himself singing
certain raga-s more frequently than other raga-s. It is in
those 'favorite' raga-s that he probably instinctively feels that he
brings out the best, both of the raga-s and of himself. Really, I
have never given thought to this question! Some of my favorite raga-
s are: Bilaskhani Todi, Lalit, Shuddha Sarang, Bhimpalasi, Marwa,
Yaman, Bihag, Bageshri, Darbari Kanada, Malkaus, Maru Bihag, Miya
Malhar, Bhairavi. And some more .....!

Regards,
Haresh.
www.SoundOfIndia.com

🔗AMiltonF@aol.com

🔗PERLICH@ACADIAN-ASSET.COM

🔗AMiltonF@aol.com

Paul E. wrote:

>Yes, there is some "overflap" there, but one major difference is that we
disagree >with Monz on
>how the lattice should be constructed.

Ok, I didn't know that.
Who is "we"?

> I wonder what
> it would take to realize this idea -- I'd be willing to dispense
> with the visuals at this point.

I've mentioned DirectX before with no response, but I think that it would be
ideally suited for this purpose. I'll post more on that in a sec.

Andy

============
> >>
> >> Well, not following the harmonic entropy angle, I posted an idea
> which would extend Dave Keenan's work to allow the listener to roam
> around the infinite JI lattice, not restricted to a small
> >> hyperspherical shell within it (which is what Dave's program
> essentially does right now). Thus instead of just hearing the same 10
> notes forever, one would eventually visit an infinite number
> >> of different pitches, though they would always be forming
> concordant JI harmonies with their immediate neighbors. I wonder what
> it would take to realize this idea -- I'd be willing to dispense
> >> with the visuals at this point.
>
> >Hmmm... Well, that's the "encore..." What a great idea!
>
> I think this overflaps with Joe Monzo's VR/Lattice idea.

🔗PERLICH@ACADIAN-ASSET.COM

🔗ligonj@northstate.net

--- In tuning@y..., "Haresh BAKSHI" <hareshbakshi@h...> wrote:
> "meend" and "gamaka", along with some other embellishments, form
the
> heart of Indian music. To enable me to discuss them in proper
> perspective, allow me to take them up in a separate posting.

Haresh,

Hello!

I hope you will speak about "meend" and "gamaka", and other
embellishments, as I and many other lovers of Indian music on this
list, will stand to deepen our understanding from someone with your
great experience and background.

> The electronic tamboura is definitely unacceptable. However, now a
> far better product, the DIGITAL tamboura box, is available. It is
> actual tamboura sound etched into EPROM. These boxes are popular
not
> only here, but also in India and elsewhere. The acoustic
(physical )
> tamboura is still the best, but delicate, cumbersome to carry,
> difficult to maintain. [I belong to the orthodox school which
> believes that only acoustic tamboura is suitable].

The ones I've heard in concerts, seemed to have digital samples of a
real tamboura. I would agree that for serious recording/performance
though, it would seem there could be no compromise about not using
the real thing. It is such a lovely sound!

> I am a singer of Hindustani (North Indian) classical music, Gwalior
> gharana (school). Names of my guru-s: Pandit Eknath Padgaonkar and
> Ustad Gulam Kader Khan. I also teach Sitar and Tabla playing (which
I
> learnt long, long time ago, during the 3-year period starting when
my
> voice began to change). I also "play" Indian raga-s on the
keyboard
> (and explain all the limitations and compromises that this would
> require). .

It is really wonderful to have you here Haresh! And that you play all
of these and sing too! I'm just so impressed.

Could you please tell me if you have any CDs of your singing
available? I would immediately purchase one. I absolutely adore
Hindustani vocal music, and it would be delighted to hear your
performance.

Is it the Harmonium you speak of above when you mention playing raga-
s on the keyboard? Aren't they normally in 12 tET? Sometimes I ponder
how this could ever be acceptable in Indian music where there is so
much wonderful deviation from our Western 12 tET scale. Do you know
if any are manufactured which allow easy retuning to the desired
intervals?

Have you ever experimented with a microtonally tunable synthesizer? I
hear synthesizers in Indian pop, but I think usually in 12 tET.

Is it at all troubling to Indian music
scholars/practitioners/performers, that the Western 12 tET Scale may
become too accepted, by infiltrating its way into the popular music
by way of Western style keyboards? I really hope it never does! We
are still trying to work our way out of the ingrained tyranny of this
system.

> > 4. What raagas do you enjoy most, and perhaps why?
>
> A very difficult question!

Yes, I realized this after I sent it, and thanks for your patience.

Every singer finds himself singing
> certain raga-s more frequently than other raga-s. It is in
> those 'favorite' raga-s that he probably instinctively feels that
he
> brings out the best, both of the raga-s and of himself. Really, I
> have never given thought to this question! Some of my favorite
raga-
> s are: Bilaskhani Todi, Lalit, Shuddha Sarang, Bhimpalasi, Marwa,
> Yaman, Bihag, Bageshri, Darbari Kanada, Malkaus, Maru Bihag, Miya
> Malhar, Bhairavi. And some more .....!

Thanks for this! Please let me (and the list) know about the
availability of CDs. I would enjoy hearing you sing any of these!

Jacky Ligon