Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup metatuning Manhunt in Iraq: Israel Trains U.S. Assassination Squads

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "John A. deLaubenfels" <jdl@a...>
wrote:
> http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=03/12/09/162219

John, thanks for this post. I see no reason to doubt the truthfulness
of what this article says.

I'm trying to come to terms with the timing of this post, and the
subject line you chose for it, given recent and very painful events
here on these lists.

You and I are both opposed to the war in Iraq and to the right-wing
regimes of the countries that are supporting it, including Israel.

There is no question that human rights violations have occured in the
name of the Israeli state.

Why not mention that Israel's Supreme Court has repeatedly overruled
the army and the government and made them operate under the rule of
law, something that cannot be said for any other Middle Eastern
nation? That Isreal's Supreme Court has repeatedly upheld the legal
rights and due process of its country's attackers, something without
remote parallel in the region?

Or that it utterly overshadows the rest of the Middle East, and
indeed the vast majority of the world, in its regard for the rights
of women, homosexuals, the disabled, and in its upholding of the
freedom of speech, press, dissent, association, and of course
religion?

You've posted about Israel over and over again. I guess it's silly
for me to expect that one of these posts will be positive. Why not,
on this very difficult day on these lists, make a post on behalf of
the victims, whose complaints have poured into the UN over the years
with no raft of condemning resolutions resulting, of human rights
abuses in Bahrain, Chad, China, Liberia, Malawi, Mali, Pakistan,
Saudi Arabia, Syria, United Arab Emirates, Yemen, and Zimbabwe
(perhaps they're spared such resolutions because these countries,
like the Palestinian Authority but unlike Israel, are part of the
UN's private strategic and information-sharing sessions in the five
UN regional groups)?

How about a post mentioning that after the Tiananmen Square killings,
Yasser Arafat was the first to congratulate the killers, writing,

'On behalf of the Arab Palestinian people, their leadership and
myself, I . . . take this opportunity to express extreme
gratification that you were able to restore normal order after the
recent inicidents in People's China. I wish you, close friends, more
progress in your endeavor to achieve the hopes, goals, aspirations,
stability and security of our friends, the Chinese people'

Israel, and seemingly only Israel, is under your microscope, the
microscope of the UN, and the microscope of the world media. Maybe
just today, on this one very difficult day, you can point your gaze
somewhere else?

-Paul

🔗kraig grady <kraiggrady@...>

This is a new one on me . guess we know now for sure where he is getting his
support

Paul Erlich wrote:

>
>
> How about a post mentioning that after the Tiananmen Square killings,
> Yasser Arafat was the first to congratulate the killers, writing,
>
> 'On behalf of the Arab Palestinian people, their leadership and
> myself, I . . . take this opportunity to express extreme
> gratification that you were able to restore normal order after the
> recent inicidents in People's China. I wish you, close friends, more
> progress in your endeavor to achieve the hopes, goals, aspirations,
> stability and security of our friends, the Chinese people'
>
> ?
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

🔗Paul Erlich <PERLICH@...>

China, and other distant states, are the source of the majority of
Arafat's personal wealth (he makes the Forbes list at $300,000,000),
while the Palestinian health care system, for example, lies bleeding.

About China . . . Since everyone's so outraged by occupation, how
about a post about China's occupation of Tibet? Longer, more brutal,
less justified by protective considerations, affecting more people,
people who comprise the majority in no state, far more settlements,
and settlements far more encouraged by the occupier (to the point of
making the Tibetans a minority in their own land!), and yet not a
single condemnation from the UN! No, China gets the 2008 Olympics!

Maybe I've seen Tibet mentioned here once. How about the Armenians in
Turkey? One post on the tuning list described the assertion of
Armenian identity as "racism" -- that was about it. The Kurds --
maybe they're unpopular here because their enemy was Saddam Hussein.
Do the Chechens have observer status at the UN? The Basques? Come on
John, expand your horizons, if only for one day.

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, kraig grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:
> This is a new one on me . guess we know now for sure where he is
getting his
> support
>
> Paul Erlich wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > How about a post mentioning that after the Tiananmen Square
killings,
> > Yasser Arafat was the first to congratulate the killers, writing,
> >
> > 'On behalf of the Arab Palestinian people, their leadership and
> > myself, I . . . take this opportunity to express extreme
> > gratification that you were able to restore normal order after the
> > recent inicidents in People's China. I wish you, close friends,
more
> > progress in your endeavor to achieve the hopes, goals,
aspirations,
> > stability and security of our friends, the Chinese people'
> >
> > ?
> >
>
> -- -Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
> http://www.anaphoria.com
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

🔗John A. deLaubenfels <jdl@...>

Paul,

I post links critical of the government of Israel because I think the government of Israel is leading the U.S. by the nose, and both are leading the world down the toilet.

Both display an arrogance in which everyone else is to be held to a standard which they themselves are not. Israel, for example, has nukes aplenty, but is threatening to bomb Iran just on the possibility that THEY might develop nukes some time in the future. The U.S. has Weapons of Mass Destruction out the wazoo, but demands that nobody else (other than trusted friends) possess them.

My quarrel is not with the citizens of either Israel or the United States, except to the extent that they support self-destructive policies of their respective governments.

It would display a lack of love for American people not to criticize the Bush regime. It would display a lack of love for the people of Israel not to criticize Sharon and his band of thugs.

The last thing I want for Israel is that it and its people are erased from the face of the earth. On its present course, that is the only future I can see.

JdL

🔗monz <monz@...>

hi paul,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <PERLICH@A...> wrote:

> About China . . . Since everyone's so outraged by occupation,
> how about a post about China's occupation of Tibet? Longer,
> more brutal, less justified by protective considerations,
> affecting more people, people who comprise the majority in
> no state, far more settlements, and settlements far more
> encouraged by the occupier (to the point of making the
> Tibetans a minority in their own land!), and yet not a
> single condemnation from the UN! No, China gets the 2008
> Olympics!

exactly the same thing happened as a result of the Soviet
(read: Russian) annexation of the Baltic states.

i remember having read that at the time Latvia became
an independent country for the second time (1991), Latvians
made up only 40% of the population, the other 60% being
mostly Russians.

... but those figures appear to be off a bit:

http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/latvia/latviaaf1.htm

>> "During subsequent years immigration reduced the
>> Latvian proportion of the population to only 52%.
>> In the 1980s, this fact fostered increasing nationalist
>> feeling, and eventually led to the formation of groups
>> dedicated to establishing independence. When Lithuania
>> and Estonia challenged Soviet authority, Latvia's
>> Supreme Soviet followed suit by declaring sovereignty
>> on 28 July 1989. In February 1990, the Latvian parliament
>> voted to work towards independence. On 4 May 1990 Latvia's
>> 1940 union with the USSR was declared illegal.

but even if Latvians remained a majority, 52% sure doesn't
make very much of a majority.

-monz

🔗Peter Wakefield Sault <sault@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "John A. deLaubenfels" <jdl@a...>
wrote:
> Paul,
>
> I post links critical of the government of Israel because I think
> the government of Israel is leading the U.S. by the nose, and both
> are leading the world down the toilet.
>
> Both display an arrogance in which everyone else is to be held to a
> standard which they themselves are not. Israel, for example, has
> nukes aplenty, but is threatening to bomb Iran just on the
> possibility that THEY might develop nukes some time in the future.

Indeed you are right John. However, Israel only attacks the weak and
the defenceless, the child and the woman, the innocent and the
unprepared. There are now Russian missiles in Iran, pointing at
Israel, and just waiting for the frothy-mouthed hypocrites to launch
their attack.

>The U.S. has Weapons of Mass Destruction out the wazoo, but demands
that nobody else (other than trusted friends) possess them.
>
> My quarrel is not with the citizens of either Israel or the United
States, except to the extent that they support self-destructive
policies of their respective governments.
>
> It would display a lack of love for American people not to
criticize the Bush regime. It would display a lack of love for the
people of Israel not to criticize Sharon and his band of thugs.
>
> The last thing I want for Israel is that it and its people are
erased from the face of the earth. On its present course, that is
the only future I can see.
>
> JdL

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wakefield Sault"

/metatuning/topicId_6342.html#6438

It would display a lack of love for the
> people of Israel not to criticize Sharon and his band of thugs.
> >

***You know, I have real questions about Sharon. Wasn't he the one
that marched everybody up to that holy mount (please fill me in here
on specifics) a couple of years ago, and it really started the entire
infantida (am I spelling that right??)

And then he got himself elected in order to quell the whole thing...

That seems like a real premeditated "cause and effect..."

Am I reading that right??

Joseph Pehrson

🔗Peter Wakefield Sault <sault@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
wrote:
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wakefield Sault"
>
> /metatuning/topicId_6342.html#6438
>
> It would display a lack of love for the
> > people of Israel not to criticize Sharon and his band of thugs.
> > >
>
>
> ***You know, I have real questions about Sharon. Wasn't he the one
> that marched everybody up to that holy mount (please fill me in
here
> on specifics) a couple of years ago, and it really started the
entire
> infantida (am I spelling that right??)
>
> And then he got himself elected in order to quell the whole thing...
>
> That seems like a real premeditated "cause and effect..."
>
> Am I reading that right??
>
> Joseph Pehrson

It certainly was in bad taste as the last Jewish person to barge into
a mosque was that mass-murderer from Brooklyn, Bernie Goldstein - who
is now a hero of the Israeli loony right, left and center.

As anybody with half a brain must surely be aware, 9/11 was an inside
job.
http://www.911review.org/Wiki/about.htm

Peter

🔗Afmmjr@...

🔗monz <monz@...>

hi Johnny,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 12/14/03 5:27:56 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> sault@c... writes:
>
>
> > As anybody with half a brain must surely be aware, 9/11 was an
inside
> > job.
> > http://www.911review.org/Wiki/about.htm
> >
> >
>
> The link didn't work for me. I'm not sure what percentage
> of a brain I possess, but wasn't 9/11 an al Qeda attack,
> admitted to by bin Laden on videotape?
>
> best, Johnny

i'm pretty sure that link *did* work for you but you
just didn't look at it closely enough. try again.
i think it's great satire.

-monz

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

/metatuning/topicId_6342.html#6486

> hi Johnny,
>
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:
>
> > In a message dated 12/14/03 5:27:56 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> > sault@c... writes:
> >
> >
> > > As anybody with half a brain must surely be aware, 9/11 was an
> inside
> > > job.
> > > http://www.911review.org/Wiki/about.htm
> > >
> > >
> >
> > The link didn't work for me. I'm not sure what percentage
> > of a brain I possess, but wasn't 9/11 an al Qeda attack,
> > admitted to by bin Laden on videotape?
> >
> > best, Johnny
>
>
>
> i'm pretty sure that link *did* work for you but you
> just didn't look at it closely enough. try again.
> i think it's great satire.
>
>
> -monz

***Oh... that's hilarious. I didn't "get it" the first time,
either...

🔗Afmmjr@...

🔗Peter Wakefield Sault <sault@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 12/14/03 5:27:56 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> sault@c... writes:
>
>
> > As anybody with half a brain must surely be aware, 9/11 was an
inside
> > job.
> > http://www.911review.org/Wiki/about.htm
> >
> >
>
> The link didn't work for me.

Oh yes it did, Johnny. You just didn't take the time to read it. Try
again.

> I'm not sure what percentage of a brain I
> possess, but wasn't 9/11 an al Qeda attack, admitted to by bin
> Laden on videotape?

Oh yeah - that videotape that US forces 'found' lying on table in a
bombed house in the middle of Afghanistan. What a 'lucky' find hat
was! Like Mohammad Atta's 'passport' - the only piece of paper to
survive the collision between a 757 and the WTC. Of course, *every*
suicide bomber carries his passport, right? Must need it to get into
Paradise. Oh and I mustn't forget the 'Flying a Jumbo Jet for
Beginners' video found with a copy of the Koran in a car in the
parking lot at Boston Logan.

None of this was planted, of course. The CIA (one-time boss = the
President's dad) never forged anything ever in its entire career,
right? It just stuck to trafficking heroin and cocaine - and training
Osama bin Laden, who as the inconvenient facts would have it and
quite unlike G.W.Bush and Richard Cheney, never played golf with
Saddam Hussein.

How well it all worked out for Larry Silverstein, who, after buying
the a 99-year lease on the Twin Towers only a matter of weeks before
they were demolished, took the 'wise' precaution of insuring them
against collapse and also of additionally negotiating the right to
rebuild on the same spot should they ever do that. Why else would a
successful billionaire businessman buy a dead loss? The Towers were
never more than 50% tenanted and the running costs far exceeded the
rents. And what an unfortunate coincidence that his own building,
WTC#7, also 'collapsed' in what can only be described as a textbook
controlled demolition, despite not having been struck by anything but
a few beams from the 'collapsing' Towers.

The truth is not always pleasant but it is always for the best. Have
you ever asked how many skyscrapers in the USA have been built by the
bin Laden family construction company? And why won't the government
act on the information possessed by the SEC identifying the 'lucky'
investors who shorted AA and UA during the weeks leading up to 9/11?
An what about all that gold ($100 million +++) which has been shifted
out of one of the Towers into a service tunnel and which therefore
survived the collapses without a scratch.

It's alright. You can go back to sleep now, Johnny.

Peter

>
> best, Johnny
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗kraig grady <kraiggrady@...>

Two of my favorites after the supposed plane hitting the pentagon
that one sees no plane or debris and they shoot water on a supposed gasoline
fire and everyhing melts to a liquid except they could identify all the
victims, not to mention the 7 foot hole that goes through 3 layers of the
building supposedly done by the cockpit, Something as soft as a pinto, and
the color of the blast does not match the color or shape or length of
any of
the other plane blasts. mor does the heat remain in the building
or that the bid laden family opened their web site on 9/11 but the year
preceeding
or that John O Neil was given that job in those buildings after being
stopped to investigate the links between the bush's and the oil companies.
This after they failed to brand him as a double spy when a breif case
containing all the security plans for the city of new york were stolen.
Or that a plane can disappear for 45 minutes off of all radar over the US
THEN reappear all of a sudden outside washing DC. Travelling in what not
even recognized as a plane by those watching because o the way it moves and
navigated.
And Bush had to read goat stories to Kids, something he never did before
or after,

Peter Wakefield Sault wrote:

And what an unfortunate coincidence that his own building,

> WTC#7, also 'collapsed' in what can only be described as a textbook
> controlled demolition, despite not having been struck by anything but
> a few beams from the 'collapsing' Towers.
>
> And why won't the government
> act on the information possessed by the SEC identifying the 'lucky'
> investors who shorted AA and UA during the weeks leading up to 9/11?
>
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

🔗Afmmjr@...

There is no doubt to me that both Peter and Kraig are quite creative. There
is some plausible stuff here and there that certainly put into question what
the authorities have to say about 9/11. Much of it is familiar to me.

However, I still have trouble believing that the US would destroy its own
monument to capitalism, the twin towers.

Kraig, the fact that Arabs were or weren't listed seems to pale before all
the innocent Arabs that were killed by al Queda in Saudi Arabia. I see little
evidence that al Queda is protecting ... "its own" as they are in a strike mode
that cares little for fellow moslems, in fact equating many of them as
non-muslim (such as the shiites and Turks).

best, Johnny

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Peter Wakefield Sault <sault@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> There is no doubt to me that both Peter and Kraig are quite
creative.

What are you implying, Johnny? That we made it all up?

> There
> is some plausible stuff here and there that certainly put into
> question what the authorities have to say about 9/11.
> Much of it is familiar to me.
>
> However, I still have trouble believing that the US would destroy
> its own monument to capitalism, the twin towers.

"the US"??? Who they?

>
> Kraig, the fact that Arabs were or weren't listed seems to pale
> before all the innocent Arabs that were killed by al Queda in
> Saudi Arabia.

You're getting a little garbled here, Johnny. However, not only were
the 'Arabs' not listed but they were INVISIBLE. They walked past the
airport security cameras without being seen - unlike everyone else
who got on those planes.

> I see little
> evidence that al Queda is protecting ... "its own" as they are
> in a strike mode that cares little for fellow moslems, in fact
> equating many of them as
> non-muslim (such as the shiites and Turks).
>

You appear to read too many newspapers and watch too much TV. Surely
you must be aware that any information obtained via those means must
be pretty much entirely negated if you want to get any semblance of
the truth?

> best, Johnny
>

And to you
Peter

🔗Afmmjr@...

In a message dated 12/15/2003 11:57:53 AM Eastern Standard Time,
sault@... writes:

> You appear to read too many newspapers and watch too much TV. Surely
> you must be aware that any information obtained via those means must
> be pretty much entirely negated if you want to get any semblance of
> the truth?
>
>

We are all trying to get at the truth the best way we know how and with all
means possible. Sometimes I think I watch and read too much news...it is
rather depressing you know.

best, Johnny

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Peter Wakefield Sault <sault@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 12/15/2003 11:57:53 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> sault@c... writes:
>
> > You appear to read too many newspapers and watch too much TV.
Surely
> > you must be aware that any information obtained via those means
must
> > be pretty much entirely negated if you want to get any semblance
of
> > the truth?
> >
> >
>
> We are all trying to get at the truth the best way we know how and
with all
> means possible. Sometimes I think I watch and read too much
news...it is
> rather depressing you know.
>
> best, Johnny
>

I find it best not to read newspapers and I do not have a TV. I go to
the movies (with my brainwashing filter switched to MAX) and concerts
for entertainment. Articles actually worth reading generally get
posted on the Web and I find fewer ulterior motives in the writings
of Web journalists than in those of Rupert Murdoch's (not to say
Conrad Black's, Edgar Bronfman's etc etc etc) overpaid and
sycophantic lackeys.

Chuang Tzu points out that no matter what is happening it is what
should be happening but he was a bit of an extreme non-
interventionist.

"The Tao is in the shit and in the piss" - Chuang Tzu

Peter

🔗kraig grady <kraiggrady@...>

Afmmjr@... wrote:

>
>
> However, I still have trouble believing that the US would destroy its own
> monument to capitalism, the twin towers.

That a group can gain control of the US does not mean that they represent the US.
There is also the possibility there was a 'coup" attempt that they are trying to
cover up. maybe Bush is a prisoner

>
>
> Kraig, the fact that Arabs were or weren't listed seems to pale before all
> the innocent Arabs that were killed by al Queda in Saudi Arabia. I see little
> evidence that al Queda is protecting ... "its own" as they are in a strike mode
> that cares little for fellow moslems, in fact equating many of them as
> non-muslim (such as the shiites and Turks).

I still am not sure just who Al Queda is, and not sure everything credited to
them is them.
(kind of like the CIA)
Interestingly they got one of their main demands, that we get out of Saudi Arabia.

>
>
> best, Johnny
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

🔗Afmmjr@...

In a message dated 12/15/03 9:42:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,
kraiggrady@... writes:

> That a group can gain control of the US does not mean that they represent
> the US.
> There is also the possibility there was a 'coup" attempt that they are
> trying to
> cover up. maybe Bush is a prisoner
>

This is what I mean by creativity. Kraig, you missed a calling...have your
tried writing for a story for film? I suspect it is more believable to accept
that maybe we are all prisoners of Bush. Everyone and no one represents the
U.S. Perhaps it is the American Festival of Microtonal Music that truly
represents the U.S. Does the AFMM have cause to eradicate WTC for that reason?
Linear connections of logic do not a truth make.

> >
> >
> > Kraig, the fact that Arabs were or weren't listed seems to pale before all
> > the innocent Arabs that were killed by al Queda in Saudi Arabia. I see
> little
> > evidence that al Queda is protecting ... "its own" as they are in a strike
> mode
> > that cares little for fellow moslems, in fact equating many of them as
> > non-muslim (such as the shiites and Turks).
>
> I still am not sure just who Al Queda is, and not sure everything credited
> to
> them is them.
> (kind of like the CIA)
> Interestingly they got one of their main demands, that we get out of Saudi
> Arabia.

Well, they do have a recognizable theme: hit two different but related
targets within minutes of each other. Also, they do not admit execution until they
feel like telling, usually a week or more later than the attacks.

While there is plenty of bad stuff to go around, al Queda is likely exactly
what it seems to be, as in acts like a duck, etc. Their hatred for women and
their Nazi like attitude to people in general is rather unique to other
organizations. I'm not sure the Saudi Arabian exodus for the US is for the reasons
you might think.

I suspect bin Laden's Koran reading of Medina and Mecca has more to do with
it: first try to get the infidel's to evolve into the preferred way of
thinking, and when that fails, surround them and drive them (Saudi leadership) out.

I feel I can smell bin Laden, even from here.

best, Johnny

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗kraig grady <kraiggrady@...>

Afmmjr@... wrote:

> In a message dated 12/15/03 9:42:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> kraiggrady@... writes:
>
> > That a group can gain control of the US does not mean that they represent
> > the US.
> > There is also the possibility there was a 'coup" attempt that they are
> > trying to
> > cover up. maybe Bush is a prisoner
> >
>
> This is what I mean by creativity. Kraig, you missed a calling...have your
> tried writing for a story for film? I suspect it is more believable to accept
> that maybe we are all prisoners of Bush. Everyone and no one represents the
> U.S. Perhaps it is the American Festival of Microtonal Music that truly
> represents the U.S. Does the AFMM have cause to eradicate WTC for that reason?
>

If there are things that don't add up at all, it forces me to examine 'creatively' in
what possible way it can. It is closer to the methods of crimology. this is what the
police must use when hunting criminals. i am surethat the reality is quite possibly
nothing like i imagine, but at the same time, it being nothing i am told.
Like i said i am not completely sure who is who as I have reasons to believe that he
had an attempted assassination on 9/11 when an unidentified camera crew tried to
interview hin in florida. It seeme to resemble what they had just pulled on the
northern alliance leader they had killled the day before.

> >
> > I still am not sure just who Al Queda is, and not sure everything credited
> > to
> > them is them.
> > (kind of like the CIA)
> > Interestingly they got one of their main demands, that we get out of Saudi
> > Arabia.
>
> Well, they do have a recognizable theme: hit two different but related
> targets within minutes of each other. Also, they do not admit execution until they
> feel like telling, usually a week or more later than the attacks.
>
> While there is plenty of bad stuff to go around, al Queda is likely exactly
> what it seems to be, as in acts like a duck, etc. Their hatred for women and
> their Nazi like attitude to people in general is rather unique to other
> organizations. I'm not sure the Saudi Arabian exodus for the US is for the reasons
> you might think.

i just thought it was funny rthey got what they wanted anyway and don't think they
are the ones responsible for getting it. That the nazi had strong ties with saudi
arabia possibly should not be overlooked

>
>
> I suspect bin Laden's Koran reading of Medina and Mecca has more to do with
> it: first try to get the infidel's to evolve into the preferred way of
> thinking, and when that fails, surround them and drive them (Saudi leadership) out.

i knew you were creative too

>
> I feel I can smell bin Laden, even from here.

well don't get TOO creative, it is scary and i think he is way smarter than saddam,
but i just don't se his organization , in that good of shape anymore, at least here,
in smelling distance. (usually when i say such things, i get a rude awakening)

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

🔗Paul Erlich <PERLICH@...>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wakefield Sault"
<sault@c...> wrote:
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <PERLICH@A...>
wrote:
> > Or that it utterly overshadows the rest of the Middle East, and
> > indeed the vast majority of the world, in its regard for the
rights
> > of women, homosexuals, the disabled, and in its upholding of the
> > freedom of speech, press, dissent, association, and of course
> > religion?
>
> Perhaps, but only if you're a Jew.

Check again. These freedoms extend to *all* religious groups.
Including Muslims, who according to some estimates (extrapolating
current trends), comprise the demographic future of Israel.

It's true that there is some discrimination there compared with, say,
the United States. But this is on the decline. The Israel Supreme
Court ruled in 2002: "The principle of equality prohibits the state
from distinguishing between its citizens on the basis of religion of
nationality. The principle also applies to the allocation of state
land . . . The Jewish character of the state does not permit Israel
to discriminate between its citizens." Compare this to the rest of
the Middle East, where non-Muslims, particular Jews, are little more
than dirt in the eyes of the law.

It's also true that all non-criminal Jews are automatically entitled
to citizenship in Israel. This is essentially why Israel became a
state in 1948 in the first place, because the simultaneous fronts of
German and Arab Nazism left surviving Jews with nowhere to go (turned
away even by the USA). Jordan, which makes up the majority of
Palestine, also has a "right of return", which explicitly denies
citizenship to all Jews (and only to Jews), even those who lived
there for generations. Saudi Arabia is a similar case, as are most
Muslim states. Germany and China have "right of return" laws for
members of those nationalities. Yet you never hear these countries
singled out as "racist" or "apartheid".

> Only Jews are allowed to immigrate
> to this wonderful example of enlightened civilization.

Another falsehood. For example, many non-Jewish Soviet emigres,
Muslims who escaped from the Bosnian Civil War in 1993, and Albanian
refugees rescused from Kosovo in 1999, have been given first-class
citizenship in Israel.

> Surely that's
> a bit of an anachronism in the modern world, 21st century and all
> that, wouldn't you say?

Perhaps, but Israel's neighbors (outnumbering it in population by 60-
to-1) look even less like this ideal of the modern world, and hate
Isreal for its -- believe it or not -- comparitavely progressive
social environment.

🔗Paul Erlich <PERLICH@...>

It was definitely a wrong-headed provocation. But the visit was
negotiated in advance with Palestinian leaders. Meanwhile, the
evidence shows the violence had been carefully planned well before
Sharon's visit. Arafat's rejection of Barak's peace offer was
carefully planned to coincide with an outbreak of terrorism (I can
explain more fully if you wish). As the communications minister of
the Palestinian Authority candidly acknowledged (to the Jerusalem
Post):

'The PA had begun to prepare for the outbreak of the current Intifada
since the return from the Camp David negotiations, by request of
President Yasser Arafat, who predicted the outbreak of the Intifada
as a complementary stage to the Palestinian steadfastness in the
negotiations, and not as a specific protest against Sharon's visit to
[Temple Mount] . . . The Intifada was no surprise for the Palestinian
leadership. The leadership had invested all of its efforts in
political and diplomatic channels in order to fix the flaws in the
negotiations and the peace process, but to no avail. It encountered
Israeli stubbornness and continuous renunciation of [Palestinian]
rights . . . The PA instructed the political forces and factions to
run all the materials of the Intifada.'

The Mitchell commission came to a similar conclusion: "The Sharon
visit did not cause the Al-Aksa Intifada."

Still, Sharon did not behave like a 21st century hero -- far from it.
Nevertheless, it would be very suprising indeed if neither side
stages such another such provocation in the near future. Are we to
accept violence as a legitimate response to such provocations? Or can
the 21st century (actually much older) concept of freedom of
expression eventually take hold in this troubled region? I hope so.