Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup metatuning various thoughts

Wow...this is, indeed, a lively list...glad I joined. I just have a
few thoughts about some of the posts I've seen here lately, in no
particluar order. On the subject of cloning, I hate to say it, but I
haven't yet seen compelling evidence that we, as a race, have the
intelligence to attempt such a profound project. I mean, we can't even
time our traffic lights properly; to be responsible for the creation of
human life requires, as I see it, a bit more wisdom than we possess at
this time. Maybe we need to evolve for a few million more years
first...and, the way we're going, that ain't going to happen. Speaking
of evolution, it's simple, to me...the Creator created the Universe, and
then let it evolve. I have never had a problem reconciling the two
concepts (the Urantia book is real interesting reading on this subject).
I'm amazed at all the hostility that has been generated, over the years,
concerning this subject. And, of course, there are those who do not
believe in a Creator...why, I do not understand, for a simple reason:
anything that exists, in the Universe, was obviously created by someone
(thing?). If an automobile cannot appear accidently, if it must be
created by some sort of intelligent means, then a galaxy sure isn't an
accident, either. Neither is life. And, when scientists figure out how
to create a planet, than I'll be real impressed. But, you know, some of
my best compadres are athiests, and are some very moral and honorable
beings...while a large number of those who profess a belief in God are
rather scummy...go figure. I've always thought that the best way to get
along in life was to not try and dominate others, either on a personal
level, or in national relations...pretty simple, really. For example,
although the early American pioneers professed a belief in Christ, their
behavior towards the Natives said otherwise...I cannot imaging Christ
commiting genocide on a whole continent of people. Ah, but they were
"savages," it was said, who didn't have the sense to manage the mineral
wealth of the land...so, "we," the settlers, from our loftier vantage
point in the hierarchy of life, created "Manifest Destiny," to justify
the taking of the land, which "we" would know how to "develop" properly.
It wasn't supposed to happen that way, and if we had done what we were
supposed to do, which was share the gifts of each culture with each
other, perhaps, just perhaps, those two towers might still be standing
now. We'll never know, of course, which is truly a horrendous
shame...but, I often think of what might have been, had not the desire
to dominate others been the course of events in this land. And, unless
this current tragic turn of events gives us the wisdom to, perhaps,
reassess our way of dealing with the world (and I mean all cultures,
here, not just the USA), I fear we've just witnessed the beginning salvo
of an unimaginable horror that will touch us all. I do not want that to
occur, and I truly pray that we, as a planet, find a way to turn this
around, and quick...Hstick

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

--- In metatuning@y..., "Neil Haverstick" <STICK@U...> wrote:

> Wow...this is, indeed, a lively list...glad I joined.

Hi Neil!

> I just have a
> few thoughts about some of the posts I've seen here lately, in no
> particluar order. On the subject of cloning, I hate to say it, but I
> haven't yet seen compelling evidence that we, as a race, have the
> intelligence to attempt such a profound project. I mean, we can't
even
> time our traffic lights properly; to be responsible for the
creation of
> human life requires, as I see it, a bit more wisdom than we possess
at
> this time.

Too bad many of us were conceived by accident.

> Maybe we need to evolve for a few million more years
> first...and, the way we're going, that ain't going to happen.
Speaking
> of evolution, it's simple, to me...the Creator created the
Universe, and
> then let it evolve. I have never had a problem reconciling the two
> concepts

Or maybe our concept of "time" is exceedingly limited, due to our
corporeal natures . . . surely spiritual matters can involve
relationships that transcend the cause-effect ones of common
experience (as do certain quantum mechanical phenomena).

>(the Urantia book is real interesting reading on this subject).
> I'm amazed at all the hostility that has been generated, over the
years,
> concerning this subject. And, of course, there are those who do not
> believe in a Creator...why, I do not understand, for a simple
reason:
> anything that exists, in the Universe, was obviously created by
someone
> (thing?).

Who created the creator?

> I've always thought that the best way to get
> along in life was to not try and dominate others, either on a
personal
> level, or in national relations...pretty simple, really.

Go Neil!

> For example,
> although the early American pioneers professed a belief in Christ,
their
> behavior towards the Natives said otherwise...I cannot imaging
Christ
> commiting genocide on a whole continent of people.

Neither can I!

> It wasn't supposed to happen that way, and if we had done what we
were
> supposed to do, which was share the gifts of each culture with each
> other, perhaps, just perhaps, those two towers might still be
standing
> now.

Interesting that Manhattan was one of the few pieces of land bought,
rather than brutally conquered, from Native Americans . . . how much
was it, $25?

> And, unless
> this current tragic turn of events gives us the wisdom to, perhaps,
> reassess our way of dealing with the world (and I mean all cultures,
> here, not just the USA), I fear we've just witnessed the beginning
salvo
> of an unimaginable horror that will touch us all. I do not want
that to
> occur, and I truly pray that we, as a planet, find a way to turn
this
> around, and quick...Hstick

I'm praying too . . . just because I don't take the Bible in
pedestrian, literal terms doesn't mean I don't have a spiritual side.

🔗Afmmjr@...

In a message dated 9/28/01 4:48:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
paul@... writes:

> Interesting that Manhattan was one of the few pieces of land bought,
> rather than brutally conquered, from Native Americans . . . how much
> was it, $25?
>
>

I've enjoyed reading you, Neil. But I don't find the above interesting at
all. The world was attacked and the susceptible think this has to do with
Israel. I hope that you religious folk read the religious stuff in the Koran
which has U.S. painted as the Great Satan at the Hour of Doom, when dear
Islamic martyrs (terrorists) are resurrected from the dead. One thing that
is clear to me is that if Israel never existed, if Palestine was all there
was today, the event of 9/11 would still have happened. (I bet the Intifada
was encouraged because this 4 year plan needed to be played out; peace was
never truly considered.)

This is not a crusade...I wouldn't know how to properly use this term for
others. This is self-defense, and the whole world was attacked. Just read
the lists of people who are actually lost. Religious or moral relativism
doesn't do justice.

Though this isn't music, per se, a composer's worth has much to do with their
character, life experiences, and openness to different perspectives.
Religion is interesting in how much it colors judgment.

Best, Johnny Reinhard

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

--- In metatuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 9/28/01 4:48:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> paul@s... writes:
>
>
> > Interesting that Manhattan was one of the few pieces of land
bought,
> > rather than brutally conquered, from Native Americans . . . how
much
> > was it, $25?
> >
> >
>
> I've enjoyed reading you, Neil. But I don't find the above
interesting at
> all.

Well, don't blame Neil . . . I was the one who wrote that.

> The world was attacked and the susceptible think this has to do
with
> Israel.

Many do, due to the usual anti-Semitic propaganda going around. That
is terrifying.

> I hope that you religious folk read the religious stuff in the
Koran
> which has U.S. painted as the Great Satan at the Hour of Doom,

The Koran mentions the U.S.? Wow.

> One thing that
> is clear to me is that if Israel never existed, if Palestine was
all there
> was today, the event of 9/11 would still have happened.

Sounds reasonable . . . did anyone here suggest otherwise?

🔗Afmmjr@...

🔗Neil Haverstick <STICK@...>

Yow again...I think this list is something else...glad I joined. A
few thoughts...I agree that humans are animals physically; but, the
difference is that humans have a spirit, a spark of the Creator, if you
will. This spirit is eternal, can live many times, and passes through
the Universe as a student in a rather vast school. This is, of course, a
mighty mighty old and common view among most cultures in the world...it
sure isn't anything new or unusual I'm saying here. And, for what it's
worth, one does not have to belong to any sort of "organized" religion
to have deep faith, and strong moral values. And there are certainly
those, such as the late Paramahansa Yogananda, who were able to see the
essential similarities between seemingly different world religions, and
the Lakota sage Black Elk, who remarked in his book that Christianity
and the Lakota way were one and the same at heart... I couldn't agree
more. Here's a quote from the Book of the Hopi that sums it up well, as
Sotuknang, the creator of the Universes, tells the recently created
humans: "There is only one thing I ask of you. To respect the Creator at
all times. Wisdom, harmony, and respect for the love of the Creator who
made you. May it grow and never be forgotten among you as long as you
live." Simple, indeed...but, judging from the state of world affairs,
not so easy to practice.
Those words really touch me, and if folks were living in such a
fashion, the world wouldn't be in such a fix right now. And, on a
related subject, the same Book of the Hopi talks about 3 previous worlds
that, when they got too far away from the original teachings and plan of
the Creator, were destroyed, and things started over again, to see if
humans could do better in a new world. Accordingly we are in the 4th
world, and there are, indeed, those folks who believe that, perhaps,
another purification day is on the horizon...unless, as we say in street
talk, we can somehow get our shit together, and remember those ancient
and beautiful teachings of the Creator, and live accordingly. The recent
birth of a white buffalo (actually, there's been several) was, according
to a number of Native American folks, a sign that things are going to
change soon...these are teachings of this land we inhabit, and I am
disappointed that they are not more widely known. Again, as I read the
papers regarding the WTC horror, I see a lot of religious talk, but I
have yet to see the ancient ways of this land mentioned...I feel that's
a mistake. Unfortunately, when the white guys moved over here, there
wasn't much of an attempt to understand the folks who were already here,
their beliefs, and their myths and histories...actually, there was a big
push to try and eliminate their very culture, and it almost succeeded.
Thanks to the Creator that it did not, because there's a lot of wisdom
in our own backyard, if we just look a bit. (I highly recommend an
article, by Russell Means, in "Mother Jones" magazine, about 1981. I
don't know which issue, but it's well worth checking out, especially in
these troubled days).
I am glad we can chat about these things, in an atmosphere of respect
and understanding. We are surely not all going to agree, but to hear
divergent views, spoken by a bunch of (dare I say it) really sharp
folks, is a worthy endeavor. I'd like to think that now's the time for
some deep and honest talks, and some deep and profound art. I do,
indeed, believe that artists are visionaries, and that we can make a
difference...hopefully, we will do just that, and soon...because, this
is a serious time we've entered, and there's no going back...Hstick

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

🔗jpehrson@...

--- In metatuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:

/metatuning/topicId_557.html#728

> --- In metatuning@y..., "Neil Haverstick" <STICK@U...> wrote:
>
> > Yow again...I think this list is something else...glad I
joined.
> A
> > few thoughts...I agree that humans are animals physically; but,
the
> > difference is that humans have a spirit, a spark of the Creator,
if
> you
> > will.
>
> My personal opinion is that there is not much difference between
> humans and, say, gorillas . . . one of the main differences being
the ability of humans to practice deception. I'm hoping that someday,
> humans' horrible treatment of animals today will be viewed much the
> way we now look upon the white man's horrible treatment of the
black man and red man in the history of the U.S. . . . rather than
being upheld with the rhetoric of "we have souls and they don't".

I believe that the DNA of the primate line and our own is more than
99% identical...

That might make a monkey out of a *lot* of us!

________ ________ _______
Joseph Pehrson

🔗Afmmjr@...

🔗Neil Haverstick <STICK@...>

I saw, on the news, folks in Indonesia demonstrating against the
USA...the women (Muslims, I'm assuming) had their faces showing; of
course, under the Taliban, who they were supporting, they would be
executed...in fact, they wouldn't even be out of their houses
demonstrating. Is that the kind of society they really want to be
supporting? Where are their brains?
I'm reading a history of Islam (by H.M. Balyuzi)...Muhammad married a
wealthy merchant woman that he was working for, who was 15 years his
senior. They had 8 kids together...again, under the Taliban, as we know,
women cannot work, much less do anything at all. Why is the Taliban
treating women totally different than the head of their religion did?
I read an editorial by in the Rocky Mountain News by Mike Rosen, our
local Rush Limbaugh...he was talking about why the USA deserves to be
#1, and he says..."The difference between us and the deranged bin Ladens
of the world is that we can disapprove of a people or culture without
wanting to exterminate it." I was astonished that he could say this,
given our history of very deliberate genocide with the Native Americans.
In fact, it's precisely this kind of narrow, elitist thinking, I
believe, that allows the USA to kick people's butts all over the world,
and we never stop to think that, perhaps, we are wrong, and we're making
lots of enemies as we blunder through other folk's countries and
cultures, all the while thinking WE have the correct way of life, and
we're going to make sure everyone else has our values, too. If this
nonsense doesn't stop soon, things are only going to get much worse.
And, now is a perfect time for this country to re-examine it's past,
it's record of dealing with others, and how we could change in the
future. There is nothing un American about doing that....it could be the
best thing we, as a culture, have ever done. And, needless to say, it
might not hurt for all governments around the world, to do the exact
same thing...
And, speaking of Native Americans, and all tribal cultures around the
world, why are they always overlooked in the march of progress, and
development? Why are their religious views seldom, if ever, mentioned
with the more well known organized religions, such as Judaism,
Christianity, etc? And, why can't people realize that they didn't/don't
want to be a part of the "developed," "civilized" world? They were
pretty much minding their own business when the Europeans showed up,
uninvited, and proceeded to try and wipe them off the face of the Earth.
This is, of course, not just in the past...for example, the folks who
live in the rainforests all over the world are fighting a desperate
battle to maintain their way of life at this present time. I believe we,
as a "civilized" world, need to realize that not all people want to live
as we do, and let these folks alone. I truly believe we are making a
tremendous mistake to continue destroying our natural resources, and the
tribal cultures who want only to live as they have lived for many
thousands of years...Hstick

🔗Afmmjr@...

Neil, isn't it mainly point of view? I had always connected Christianity
with putting the human above nature. Yet, clearly, many Christians, and
others, are sympathetic to the imbalances of man and nature. (Here I would
keep man rather than man and women. Women have a better sense of proper
balances, IMO).

Frankly, there will be great time for thinking, maybe in year from now. We
can check from our head to our toes, like for ticks in New York State's
Dutchess County. But in war there can't be too many motifs, or it would
lead to distraction, and loss.

Once the bombing stops, and it is man to man in Afghanistan, there will be
even less protest (I hope). What I would advise against is panicking. The
flight I take to Holland was canceled last Friday due to terror fears. If my
life is now a potential target, I'd rather be focusing on other things right
about now.

Best, Johnny Reinhard

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗monz <joemonz@...>

> From: Neil Haverstick <STICK@...>
> To: <metatuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 9:27 AM
> Subject: [metatuning] various thoughts
>
>
> <snip>
>
> I read an editorial by in the Rocky Mountain News by Mike Rosen, our
> local Rush Limbaugh...he was talking about why the USA deserves to be
> #1, and he says..."The difference between us and the deranged bin Ladens
> of the world is that we can disapprove of a people or culture without
> wanting to exterminate it." I was astonished that he could say this,
> given our history of very deliberate genocide with the Native Americans.
> In fact, it's precisely this kind of narrow, elitist thinking, I
> believe, that allows the USA to kick people's butts all over the world,
> and we never stop to think that, perhaps, we are wrong, and we're making
> lots of enemies as we blunder through other folk's countries and
> cultures, all the while thinking WE have the correct way of life, and
> we're going to make sure everyone else has our values, too. If this
> nonsense doesn't stop soon, things are only going to get much worse.

In fact, even in Europe, for at least a decade and perhaps far longer,
many people have been viewing the USA in this way, thinking of us
as big bullies forcing our opinions and lifestyle on people all over
the rest of the world. We Americans are often not aware of the
widespread nature of this perspective. Sure, it's come home to us
now from certain quarters, but the European nations are our allies
in this conflict for political reasons, and if Americans were smart
we'd realize that many Europeans and people from other parts of the
world (meaning other than central Asian and other Muslim countries)
share the view of America that is being propouned in the demonstrations
in Indonesia, Maylasia, Pakistan, etc., and have their own reservations
about extending a helping hand to our empire-building.

love / peace / harmony ...

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

🔗Neil Haverstick <STICK@...>

The events of Sept 11 have sure changed things, and one of the
positive changes, I believe, is that a lot of people are talking,
writing, and generally expressing their views on events. I've seen very
intelligent commentary, very dumb ideas, and people talking about deep
issues. I hope this continues, and I expect it will. The people on this
list are generally very sharp, and their posts get me to examining my
own views. It's tricky saying what you feel about profound issues,
because it leaves you wide open to criticism and ridicule, so I surely
respect those who bare their inner views. Here's some thought and
comments regarding things I've read and heard lately...

We are now involved in a war with a very serious, ruthless bunch of
folks; I've read that the Afghans skin prisoners alive. Their leaders
have ridiculed American soldiers in the papers, saying they are too soft
to fight effectively in this war. I don't believe for a minute that the
US is going to achieve much by bombing...it's going to take sending a
lot of soldiers in, on the ground, to root the Taliban out. Then,
there's the added problem of fighting an enemy on their ground; these
Afghans are fighting for their country, for their way of life, and I
believe that goes a long way. It's one thing to train for mountain
fighting, and quite another to be in the mountains of someone else's
country, that they know intimately, and that they are fighting to
defend. I truly believe we are in some deep shit here, and now it's too
late to back out without appearing like losers in the eyes of the world.
I believe that this scenario is exactly what the folks behind the
terrorist bombings wanted to happen, and we walked (blundered?) right
into it, according to the enemy's plan.
Kathleen Parker wrote a great editorial recently, which addressed the
related issue of patience, how this is an enemy who can hold a grudge
for a thousand years, while we get pissed at having to wait at a
stoplight...it's worth thinking about. She pointed out how the cultures
of the US and the Islamic folks approach life from totally diffferent
viewpoints, and that is indeed true. We are now in a battle, as I see
it, that involves totally different ways of viewing life, and the very
concept of time, as well. I'm not sure that the US govt fully
appreciates what's happening here..and if we don't atempt to understand
the differences, we're in for some humbling experiences.

I agree with those that say we need to eliminate the people
responsible for Sept 11..they are going to do something again, and
again, if they are not stopped. Problem is, just who and where are
"they?" This is not a war like any other we've ever been involved in.
And, although I feel they need to be stopped, I do, indeed, think that
trying to understand why 9-11 happened is a very sensible thing to do.
Yes, if someone harmed my family I would want them eliminated; but, one
can, and should, always try to understand why things happen. If your
wife wants a divorce, perhaps you should examine your behavior, to see
if it had anything to do with it...I think that's sensible. Blind hate
is debilitating to the one who hates, and often makes for poor
judgement. A rabid dog has to be put out because it's a danger; but, we
put it out because we NEED to, not out of internal rage. I read once
that Native American warriors could love their enemies as they killed
them...that makes sense to me, but it's not an easy thing to accomplish.
You discipline your kids because they need it, not because you hate
them. I read in tne NY Times last year, about a Turkish woman who was
kidnapped and tortured to death, by some Islamic group that did not like
her writings on the subject of equality for women. She had 5 kids, and
had done nothing to warrant such a death. The ones who killed her are
exactly like the ones who destroyed the Towers, and they are serious,
sick folks, who feel like they have the will of God on their side. What
we need now is great wisdom and insight to combat such an enemy, because
they are not afraid of death, indeed, they welcome it...can we say, as a
country, that we have the same kind of resolve to eliminate them? If
not, we're going to be very ineffective, to say the least. And, of
course, if we do not try and understand our own violent history, our
tendency to take whatever we feel is ours ("Manifest Destiny" again)
because we are meant to have it, regardless of what we do to other
cultures, then we are not going to achieve much at all. Because there is
such a thing as karma (or, you must reap what you sow...a very old
teaching, to be sure, a correct teaching, and one that we would all do
well to heed at this time), and it's a basic part of the Universal
structure. Hate breeds hate, and attracts it as well. I think it's past
time for all countries around the world to look at their policies, their
concepts of life, and see if they promote love and understanding, or
greed and destruction. Only then, I feel, are things going to change in
any significant way...Hstick

🔗John A. deLaubenfels <jdl@...>

Thanks, Neil, for another very thoughtful post. I find little do
disagree with, but do have a few comments.

>We are now involved in a war with a very serious, ruthless bunch of
>folks; I've read that the Afghans skin prisoners alive.

I've heard that too! "They neither give nor expect quarter if
captured." Very chilling. On the other hand, also common practice
amongst Native Americans, whom you praise as "loving their enemies".
The way Joseph Campbell tells it, if you were captured by a rival tribe,
you were treated as a god, and felt it, but part of being a god was to
be tortured to death over a period of several days, if possible without
flinching. I truly don't know if this was more "loving" than the
practices of the Afghan fighters, but either way it sounds pretty
gruesome.

>Their leaders have ridiculed American soldiers in the papers, saying
>they are too soft to fight effectively in this war.

Which may or may not be true. The U.S. is loathe to sacrifice lots of
men and women, but when courage is required, we have no lack compared
to any nation. Regardless of origin or religion, every man and every
woman is capable of courage, I believe; given the right circumstances,
any one of us would lay down his or her life willingly. In the sense
that we may lose will as Americans are killed, this may be true.

>I don't believe for a minute that the
>US is going to achieve much by bombing...it's going to take sending a
>lot of soldiers in, on the ground, to root the Taliban out. Then,
>there's the added problem of fighting an enemy on their ground; these
>Afghans are fighting for their country, for their way of life, and I
>believe that goes a long way. It's one thing to train for mountain
>fighting, and quite another to be in the mountains of someone else's
>country, that they know intimately, and that they are fighting to
>defend. I truly believe we are in some deep shit here, and now it's too
>late to back out without appearing like losers in the eyes of the
>world. I believe that this scenario is exactly what the folks behind
>the terrorist bombings wanted to happen, and we walked (blundered?)
>right into it, according to the enemy's plan.

Could well be. Bush is doing what he believes is politically necessary
in the short term (i.e., blasting away at _something_ that he can paint
as a plausible target), but the long-term results may be very bad for
us.

> Kathleen Parker wrote a great editorial recently, which addressed the
>related issue of patience, how this is an enemy who can hold a grudge
>for a thousand years, while we get pissed at having to wait at a
>stoplight...it's worth thinking about. She pointed out how the cultures
>of the US and the Islamic folks approach life from totally different
>viewpoints, and that is indeed true. We are now in a battle, as I see
>it, that involves totally different ways of viewing life, and the very
>concept of time, as well. I'm not sure that the US govt fully
>appreciates what's happening here..and if we don't atempt to understand
>the differences, we're in for some humbling experiences.

Very true. We do need to understand how tough our foes are. These may
be about the toughest people in the world by any reasonable measure.
Willing to die, willing to endure extreme hardships, willing to pass the
battle on to generation after generation. Of course, the Vietnamese
were pretty tough, too, and we paid dearly there as well.

>I read in tne NY Times last year, about a Turkish woman who was
>kidnapped and tortured to death, by some Islamic group that did not
>like her writings on the subject of equality for women. She had 5 kids,
>and had done nothing to warrant such a death.

Yes, I remember that story; it is particularly horrible. She was held
for months and tortured constantly till it finally killed her. One of
those stories that it hurts so much to take in. All I can think is that
those who were responsible must inevitably pay some price for their
sins; surely nothing that evil can go unpunished.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

JdL

🔗Afmmjr@...

In a message dated 11/3/01 11:02:01 AM Eastern Standard Time,
STICK@... writes:

> We are now involved in a war with a very serious, ruthless bunch of
> I've read that the Afghans skin prisoners alive.

So did the Persians to the Kurds, and hang them over the tops of their forts.
Didn't work. Weren't the Nazis "a very serious, ruthless bunch of folks"
that had to be stopped decisively? And didn't the US enter WWII late?

> have ridiculed American soldiers in the papers, saying they
> are too soft
> to fight effectively in this war.

Neil, you are responding to propaganda even as you are aware of its
existence. We are all succumbing to fear even it is the natural result of
terrorism.

> is going to achieve much by
> bombing...it's going to take sending a lot of soldiers in, on
> the ground, to root the Taliban out.

The Russians are preparing a million-man army for use in April. There are
more coming. All governments realize it is now or never.

> there's the added problem of fighting an enemy on their ground;
> these
> Afghans are fighting for their country, for their way of life, and I
> believe that goes a long way. I

Neil (shaking him by his metaphorical shoulders) so are we!

It's one thing to train for mountain
> fighting, and quite another to be in the mountains of someone else's
> country, that they know intimately, and that they are fighting to
> defend. I truly believe we are in some deep shit here, and now it's too
> late to back out without appearing like losers in the eyes of the world.
>

It is not so much the macho because we could stop right now and have weakened
"the enemy" but there would be a later, even more vicious attach to arrive
afterwards.

> believe that this scenario is exactly what the folks behind the
> terrorist bombings wanted to happen, and we walked (blundered?) right
> into it, according to the enemy's plan.
>

Here I agree. We walked into a trap. It was obvious. But we had, too. We
have to commit to preventing future massacres on US soil. Have you asked
native Americans what they think of the present day's actions? I'm curious.
jr

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