Cage's _Organ2_ in Halberstadt, Germany

LENGTHY GERMAN RECITAL IS A REAL ORGAN GRIND

John Cage Inspires Pipe Dreams in Humble German Town

Performance of Late Composer's Piece to Run 639 Years; Intermission in 2319

By Annick Moses

And Neal E. Boudette

HALBERSTADT, Germany - Six years ago, Heinz-Klaus Metzger gave a

short talk about a long, potentially very long, piece of music -

Organ2/ASLSP - by John Cage.

Speaking at a conference on organ music, Mr. Metzger wondered

what the late avant-garde composer meant by ASLSP, his designation

for "as slow as possible." Mechanical organs, like the ones Europeans

have built in churches for centuries, can hold notes indefinitely.

"One could imagine playing the organ piece so slowly that it would

take years to come to an end," mused Mr. Metzger, a music theorist

who knew Mr. Cage.

"Does that mean the concert ends when the organist dies?" a

voice in the audience asked. Perhaps it would be when the organ

itself finally gives out, another ventured.

Mr. Metzger and a group of supporters are now seeking an

answer in the forlorn eastern German city of Halberstadt. Here, in a

crumbling medieval church used as a pigsty until a few years ago,

they have started a performance or Organ2 so slow that it is supposed

to continue for at least six centuries - until the year 2640.

Fans of Mr. Cage haven't missed much so far. The concert

officially started on September 5, 2001, but since Organ2 begins with

a rest, or silence, there was nothing to hear for the first 17 months

except for the wheezing of the organ's solar-powered bellows. In

fact, at the time, the bellows were the only part of the organ that

existed. It is being assembled as the recital proceeds.

The first three notes started on Feb. 5 of this year, when

the organizers hung weighted sacks from the organ's bare, wooden

levers. Within the church's crude stone walls, a steady, unvarying

chord can be heard 24 hours a day. Two more notes will be added in

July 2004.

Many experts on Mr. Cage's work applaud the project. Mr.

Cage's "ethos as a composer was to bring people's attention to the

present, and to use whatever means necessary to accomplish that,"

says Lawrence Rinder, curator of contemporary art at New York's

Whitney Museum of American Art. "Boredom was one of his tools to

push people past the conventional sense of time."

"It's in the spirit of Cage," adds William Duckworth, a

composer of contemporary music who knew Mr. Cage well and wrote

several books about Mr. Cage's work. "I think John would find it

amusing."

Gerd Zacher, the German organist for whom Mr. Cage wrote

Organ2, disagrees. He says Mr. Cage told him the piece should be

played slowly but also like a "soft morning" and the "should be gone."

A nondescript city of 40,000 people and a 20% unemployment

rate, Halberstadt hopes the concert will bring some renown. "If it

lasts a long time, it will gain importance that will have a positive

marketing effect for the city," says the outgoing mayor, Hans-Georg

Busch.

Born in Los Angeles in 1912, Mr. Cage believed random notes

or ambient noise could be music. He wrote some music by laying music

paper over astronomical maps, and placing notes where stars stood.

One of his best-known pieces, "4'33"," is performed by a musician

sitting silently at a piano for four minutes and 33 seconds.

Occasionally, he gave eccentric instructions to performers. One

composition was to be sung preferably by 12 American men who had

become Canadian citizens.

In 1985, Mr. Cage wrote a piano composition to be played as

slowly as possible. Two years later, Mr. Zacher asked him to write a

version for the organ. Mr. Cage's only written instruction besides

ASLSP was that one of its eight movements had to be repeated. When

Mr. Zacher first played Organ2 at a contemporary music festival in

France, it lasted 29 minutes. Mr. Cage died in 1992.

Mr. Metzger, a 71-year-old music theorist, met Mr. Cage in

1958 and once had him write a score for the Frankfurt Opera. In

1997, a music institute in southern Germany asked him to give a talk

on Organ2. It electrified the dozen or so attendees. Soon a few began

trying to arrange a performance lasting years or decades.

One supporter, Jacob Ullmann, lobbied for Halberstadt, a

former East German city that has a collection of 18,000 stuffed birds

and is the unheralded home of canned sausage, which was invented here

in 1896. Halberstadt also has a place in music history. An organ

built here in 1361 was the first to arrange its keys as they are

today, organized according to musical scales with the black notes

raised.

The city also had an old monastery with a possible venue.

The St. Burchardi church was built in the 11th century and turned

into a barn around Napoleon's time. During the Cold War, it housed

pigs. After German reunification, the pigs moved out, though their

troughs, hay and stench remained. The city council agreed to turn

over St. Burchardi to a newly-formed John Cage Foundation, as long as

the project didn't cost the city anything.

Halberstadt inspired the concert's length. Messrs. Metzger,

Ullmann and other Foundation members counted the years back from 2000

to when the city's famous organ was built, and decided that the

concert would last that long: 639 years. Stretching Mr. Cage's

composition fell to a Swedish music professor, Hans-Ola Ericsson, 44.

Each movement lasts 71 years. The shortest notes last six or seven

months, the longest about 35 years. There is an intermission in 2319.

Since Mr. Cage put no limits on how many of the movements can

be repeated, the concert could conceivably last longer than 639

years, Mr. Ericsson says. "It's really limited by how long the organ

holds up, if worms eat into the wood, or the lead pipes begin to

decompose."

The biggest challenge is fund raising. A full church-sized

organ costs more than $500,000. Michael Betzle, a local physicist

whose firm builds tunnels, stepped forward as a benefactor. He says

he was moved by the concept and saw it as a tonic for business

executives, in these frenetic times.

The recent accounting scandals, the collapse of Germany's

Neuer Markt stock exchange, failed mergers, ruinous investments in

third-generation cellular telephone networks - "all these were done

because of decisions that were made too quickly," Mr. Betzle, 60,

explains. "My wish is that this project causes people to slow down

and think out decisions more."

He donated about $45,000 to the Foundation. That was enough

to clean up the church and to start building the organ. On Sept. 4,

2001, about 350 people paid $17 each to attend the start of the

concert. At midnight - Sept. 5 marked what would have been Mr.

Cage's 89th birthday - two bare-chested men began pumping the

bellows, the way it was done centuries ago. The solar-powered motor

later took over.

Since then, the foundation has raised money by selling

commemorative coins, and letting donors sponsor particular years.

Eighteen years have been sold at 1000 Pounds each. The year 2222 has

been taken, but plenty of other round years, like 2100 and 2500, are

still available.

The foundation was also applied for grants and asked big

companies like Volkswagen, AG, which has headquarters in nearby

Wolfsburg. So far, the only corporate sponsor is Thyga, AG, a Munich

electric company, Mr. Betzle says. It has pledged 1000 Pounds a year

for the duration of the concert.

At the moment the foundation has about $17,000, but needs to raise

more that $100,000 within two or three years. In addition to

building the organ, it was plans to turn a building next to the

church into a contemporary music center named the John Cage Academy.

Mr. Betzle would like to link the concert to museums around the

world. "There could be a room where people could hear a tone from

Halberstadt," he said. "It would be like an eternal flame."

---
Hanuman Zhang, musical mad scientist (no, I don't wanna take over the world,
just the sound spectrum...)

"What strange risk of hearing can bring sound to music - a hearing whose
obligation awakens a sensibility so new that it is forever a unique, new-born,
anti-death surprise, created now and now and now. .. a hearing whose moment
in time is always daybreak." - Lucia Dlugoszewski

"The wonderousness of the human mind is too great to be transferred into
music only by 7 or 12 elements of tone steps in one octave." - shakuhachi master
Masayuki Koga

"There's a rabbinical tradition that the music in heaven will be microtonal"
-annotative interpretation of Schottenstein Tehillim, 92:4, the verse being:
"Upon a ten-stringed * instrument and upon lyre, with singing accompanied by
harp." [* utilizing new tones]

NADA BRAHMA - Sanskrit, "sound [is the] Godhead"

"God utters me like a word containing a partial thought of himself." -Thomas
Merton

LILA - Sanskrit, "divine play/sport/whimsy" - "the universe is what happens
when God wants to play" - "joyous exercise of spontaneity involved in the art
of creation"

Man, just think, a perfectly good (solar!) organ going to
waste, unavailable to the starving organists of the world,
for 40 years! Cage is doing damage to humanity even in
death. I'd like to resurrect the bastard and kill him
again myself.

-Carl

I really think Cage did some very beautiful music. i think he understood a level of optimism, that in the hands of
others seems to sway into the rhelm of 'manic-ness' he was gracious enogh to avoid. Still maybe it is such acts
that keep the world going, like the tibetians who keep prayer wheels spinning to prevent the destruction of the
universe.

Carl Lumma wrote:

> Man, just think, a perfectly good (solar!) organ going to
> waste, unavailable to the starving organists of the world,
> for 40 years! Cage is doing damage to humanity even in
> death. I'd like to resurrect the bastard and kill him
> again myself.
>
> -Carl
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:

/metatuning/topicId_5538.html#5539

> Man, just think, a perfectly good (solar!) organ going to
> waste, unavailable to the starving organists of the world,
> for 40 years! Cage is doing damage to humanity even in
> death. I'd like to resurrect the bastard and kill him
> again myself.
>
> -Carl

***Carl, many of Cage's ideas were "tongue in cheek" philosophical
parodies. If people are dumb enough to carry them all out, that's
their *own* problem... :)

Cage was a sweet and kind kinda guy, so I doubt you'd feel that way
if you ever had a chance to meet him, as I did a few times...

J. Pehrson

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
wrote:

/metatuning/topicId_5538.html#5542

> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
>
> /metatuning/topicId_5538.html#5539
>
> > Man, just think, a perfectly good (solar!) organ going to
> > waste, unavailable to the starving organists of the world,
> > for 40 years! Cage is doing damage to humanity even in
> > death. I'd like to resurrect the bastard and kill him
> > again myself.
> >
> > -Carl
>
>
> ***Carl, many of Cage's ideas were "tongue in cheek" philosophical
> parodies. If people are dumb enough to carry them all out, that's
> their *own* problem... :)
>
> Cage was a sweet and kind kinda guy, so I doubt you'd feel that way
> if you ever had a chance to meet him, as I did a few times...
>
> J. Pehrson

***What's more, now that I read the article even more carefully, the
old church in question was basically a pigsty until they cleaned it
up for this project. Additionally there was *no organ* there until
this project started.

It appears, as well, that it's a boon for tourism, and is filling the
city coffers.

So, Cage is more a humorist and creator of popular curiousities which
seem, at least in this case, to be doing a fair amount of good!

J. Pehrson

P.S. The article is quite entertaining and funny.

In a message dated 2003:08:27 11:47:20 AM, kraiggrady@... writes:

>I really think Cage did some very beautiful music.

Esp'ly his Number series toward the end of his life - lovely meditative
works, truly contemporary Buddhistic-like. I am quite taken with his early
Percussion/Prepared Piano/Imaginary Landscapes Period works as well ... then again
I started off as percussionist, so I am a lil biased ;)
In Texas of all places, my sister's piano teacher got me into Cage's
Percussion/Prepared Piano/Imaginary Landscapes Period works as well as Cowell,
Varese, Partch and Lou Harrison. She introduced me to contemporary percussion and
microtonality cuz I couldn't sit still at the piano and since I was already
seekin' the path of my own peculiar, hypercolourful sense of
tonality/timbrality.
As a lesson on _Klangfarbenmelodie_ and drones, she once played for me
her absolutely delightful re-interpretation of a Webern chamber piece
transcribed to toy piano and harmonium! :)

> i think he understood
>a level of optimism, that in the hands of
>others seems to sway into the rhelm of 'manic-ness' he was gracious enogh
>to avoid. Still maybe it is such acts
>that keep the world going, like the tibetians who keep prayer wheels spinning
>to prevent the destruction of the
>universe.

:) Well said.

---
Hanuman Zhang, musical mad scientist (no, I don't wanna take over the world,
just the sound spectrum...)

"There's a rabbinical tradition that the music in heaven will be microtonal"
-annotative interpretation of Schottenstein Tehillim, 92:4, the verse being:
"Upon a ten-stringed * instrument and upon lyre, with singing accompanied by
harp." [* utilizing new tones]

NADA BRAHMA - Sanskrit, "sound [is the] Godhead"

"God utters me like a word containing a partial thought of himself." -Thomas
Merton

LILA - Sanskrit, "divine play/sport/whimsy" - "the universe is what happens
when God wants to play" - "joyous exercise of spontaneity involved in the art
of creation"

czhang23@... wrote:

> In a message dated 2003:08:27 11:47:20 AM, kraiggrady@... writes:
>
> >I really think Cage did some very beautiful music.
>
> Esp'ly his Number series toward the end of his life - lovely meditative
> works, truly contemporary Buddhistic-like. I am quite taken with his early
> Percussion/Prepared Piano/Imaginary Landscapes Period works as well ... then again
> I started off as percussionist, so I am a lil biased ;)

exactly my taste too

>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

> ***Carl, many of Cage's ideas were "tongue in cheek"
> philosophical parodies. If people are dumb enough to
> carry them all out, that's their *own* problem... :)

I saw Cage on PBS once. He was having people dance to
looped recorded whispers. He was getting paid for this.
He's guilty as sin for taking money in exchange for
this crapola, I do not buy the tongue-in-cheek bit at
all.

-Carl

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:

/metatuning/topicId_5538.html#5551

> > ***Carl, many of Cage's ideas were "tongue in cheek"
> > philosophical parodies. If people are dumb enough to
> > carry them all out, that's their *own* problem... :)
>
> I saw Cage on PBS once. He was having people dance to
> looped recorded whispers. He was getting paid for this.
> He's guilty as sin for taking money in exchange for
> this crapola, I do not buy the tongue-in-cheek bit at
> all.
>
> -Carl

***Carl, Cage lived in near poverty for most of his life, and he was
responsible for getting people to think of things in a different
way. You can think of him more as a *philosopher* or *poet* than as
a composer, if you don't care for his music.

J. Pehrson

In a message dated 2003:08:27 11:04:59 PM, kraiggrady@... writes:

>czhang23@... wrote:
>
>> In a message dated 2003:08:27 11:47:20 AM, kraiggrady@... writes:
>>
>> >I really think Cage did some very beautiful music.
>>
>> Esp'ly his Number series toward the end of his life - lovely meditative
>> works, truly contemporary Buddhistic-like. I am quite taken with his
>early Percussion/Prepared Piano/Imaginary Landscapes Period works as well ...
>then again I started off as percussionist, so I am a lil biased ;)
>
>exactly my taste too

I noticed ;) or at least I somehow got that impression intuitively.

---
Hanuman Zhang, musical mad scientist (no, I don't wanna take over the world,
just the sound spectrum...)

"What strange risk of hearing can bring sound to music - a hearing whose
obligation awakens a sensibility so new that it is forever a unique, new-born,
anti-death surprise, created now and now and now. .. a hearing whose moment
in time is always daybreak." - Lucia Dlugoszewski

"The wonderousness of the human mind is too great to be transferred into
music only by 7 or 12 elements of tone steps in one octave." - shakuhachi master
Masayuki Koga

"There's a rabbinical tradition that the music in heaven will be microtonal"
-annotative interpretation of Schottenstein Tehillim, 92:4, the verse being:
"Upon a ten-stringed * instrument and upon lyre, with singing accompanied by
harp." [* utilizing new tones]

NADA BRAHMA - Sanskrit, "sound [is the] Godhead"

"God utters me like a word containing a partial thought of himself." -Thomas
Merton

LILA - Sanskrit, "divine play/sport/whimsy" - "the universe is what happens
when God wants to play" - "joyous exercise of spontaneity involved in the art
of creation"

In a message dated 8/28/03 4:15:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, clumma@...
writes:

> I saw Cage on PBS once. He was having people dance to
> looped recorded whispers. He was getting paid for this.
> He's guilty as sin for taking money in exchange for
> this crapola, I do not buy the tongue-in-cheek bit at
> all.
>
> -Carl

Carl, it only takes one great novel for a writer to be a great writer.
Likewise, Cage has more than one great piece, other than "Sonatas and Interludes
for Prepared Piano" (e.g., Daughters of the Lonesome Isle). He is guilty of
nothing other than being clever. No one is required to buy his music, or buy
into his music. And yes, he was a nice guy in a sea of sharks.

best, Johnny Reinhard

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> I saw Cage on PBS once. He was having people dance to
> looped recorded whispers. He was getting paid for this.
> He's guilty as sin for taking money in exchange for
> this crapola, I do not buy the tongue-in-cheek bit at
> all.

Your statement belies a rather incredible ignorance of the body of work - and thought - of one of the 20th century's great artists. No, I don't think everything that Cage did was of equal or huge significance. But I can easily acknowledge not only his accomplishments but the vast group of artists that benefited from his open thinking and pure, innocent, and fresh ways of thinking of art, sound, and the world around us.

Especially the world around us.

Cheers,
Jon

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

/metatuning/topicId_5538.html#5577

I can easily acknowledge not only his accomplishments but the vast
group of artists that benefited from his open thinking and pure,
innocent, and fresh ways of thinking of art, sound, and the world
around us.
>
> Especially the world around us.
>
> Cheers,
> Jon

***I was thinking about this, and it occurred to me that almost
*every* living composer would acknowledge the extraordinary influence
of Cage, even the *most conservative* composer, whether they
particularly cared for his music or methods or not!

J. Pehrson

we are of a different generation too, and so often what effects one , has little meaning to later ones. I have
friends who have no interest in ANY orchestral music, or really acoustic music in general unless it is the garbled
free improv stuff. i bet we could find a few cage pieces he might like though. If fact from what i can tell, music
started with the tape recorder. One recent Cage piece i got was one based on William Billings pieces and it has to
be the most tonal thing he did. Quartets I-VIII. ( or course this really offended those i mentioned above). Quartet
in four parts i have always loved (one string was tuned to get 7th harmonics too if memory serves me right)
Concepts are funny things though in that there is always the opposite concept. while it is possible to hear just
about anything as music, it is also possible to hear music (especially if unwanted) as Noise. Beethoveen's 9th in
central park became just that -noise.
but i simplify Cages philosophy

Joseph Pehrson wrote:

> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
>
> /metatuning/topicId_5538.html#5577
>
> I can easily acknowledge not only his accomplishments but the vast
> group of artists that benefited from his open thinking and pure,
> innocent, and fresh ways of thinking of art, sound, and the world
> around us.
> >
> > Especially the world around us.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Jon
>
> ***I was thinking about this, and it occurred to me that almost
> *every* living composer would acknowledge the extraordinary influence
> of Cage, even the *most conservative* composer, whether they
> particularly cared for his music or methods or not!
>
> J. Pehrson
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

> ***I was thinking about this, and it occurred to me that
> almost *every* living composer would acknowledge the
> extraordinary influence of Cage, even the *most
> conservative* composer, whether they particularly cared
> for his music or methods or not!

It's his extraordinary influence that I'm complaining
about!

> Carl, it only takes one great novel for a writer to be a
> great writer.

I agree, and so as always I am waiting to hear it and
ready to correct myself.

> Likewise, Cage has more than one great piece, other than
> "Sonatas and Interludes for Prepared Piano" (e.g.,
> Daughters of the Lonesome Isle). He is guilty of nothing
> other than being clever. No one is required to buy his
> music, or buy into his music.

Monty Python is clever; Cage was a tit. I sat through a
"prepared" piano piece of his once, which amounted to
torture -- and no, I do not consider torture valid artistic
content. Art need not be positive, but it should not be
torture.

I also had a chance to see a performace of 4:33 with a
group, none of us knowing the gag. How pretentious, for
him to assume that we didn't already hear everything as if
it were music! In any case this kind of awareness can not
be nurtured with tricks like this.

Nobody is required to buy his music, but the distilation of
the matter is: clever or not, there's nothing about what
Cage did that requires or belongs with traditional musical
forms. He called himself a composer, and packaged his "music"
in with other music in concerts. This creates a scene or
spectacle where it is difficult for people to leave or speak
out -- you get 'The Emperor Wears No Clothes' effect.

There's no sense in poking fun of traditional musical forms.
It's to create a 'conspiracy of traditional music', which
doesn't exist. There are artists who take themselves too
seriously and there are artists who achieve perfection. Cage
is, ironically, the ultimate example of someone who takes his
work too seriously -- he thought it deserved to be published!
Once you see 'this is not a pipe' the cat is out of the bag.
Gimme a break, Cage.

-Carl

>Your statement belies a rather incredible ignorance of the
>body of work - and thought - of one of the 20th century's
>great artists.

Is that so? Then maybe you'd care to turn me on to some of
it instead of waxing about it?

-Carl

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> Is that so? Then maybe you'd care to turn me on to some of
> it instead of waxing about it?

Carl, your harrumphing of the accomplishments of John Cage parallel your past complaining about opera when you later admitted you hadn't even heard anything by Puccini. It is great to have opinions, and you are welcome to yours, but you seem to have a profound tendency to trash things when you haven't fully investigated them, and I think that you have a better brain than that.

I've often thought, for me, that Cage occupies a somewhat unique place: he is one of those people for whom I am grateful that they lived and created, almost separate from *what* they created. For a person who truly loves the theoretical act, I find it odd that you can't (or won't, or haven't) find a small admiration for his artistic and philosophical adventures.

The biggest problem is that you aren't looking at Cage in context. If one were to go to a performance of 4"33' (I forget the correct way to type min/sec) these days, it indeed would seem quaint, silly, or some other. But when that piece was done, it indeed created and then crossed a boundary that musicians (and audiences) had not acknowledged. That you and I listen to the sounds around us, and are aware of all that can be had in an aural experience - well, back then it was not the case. The *fact* of the piece, that it addressed an attitudinal shift for how to listen to the world, is a fairly profound statement. And now it needn't be repeated.

Yet, for all those more esoteric explorations, his earlier work is most definitely grounded in what you would consider 'composition'. Have you not listened to "Sonatas and Interludes"? Are you aware of the John Cage / Lou Harrison collaborative piece "Double Music"? The ground-breaking "Constructions" series?

Many of the early compositions came with the great serendipity of a creative act merging with implicated practicality: a percussion orchestra to accompany dance, because it would be easiest to assemble and train; a prepared piano for a variety of sonic effect, putting a 'sound orchestra' in the hands of one performer. Many of these early developments came at the Black Mountain school, where similar envelope-pushing was going on in the other arts, esp. dance.

And the fact that Cage was one of the very first to attempt to reconcile and engage both Western and Eastern aesthetics and philosophies can't be pettily ignored. These things were being done at a time when it was not conceivable for Western artists to utilize the sounds and philosophies of other cultures and thought-paths. That we live in a very globally-accepting artistic world today does not mean that it was always so, and if you can't realize that while something might seem whacked now but 50, 60 years ago was the kind of event that opened doors of perception, well... But I think you can.

Frankly, there is a lot of Cage that is either too out-there, too non-deterministic, or simply just too vapid for my interest. But the world of music would have been a far more conservative, contipated, and non-fun place without his journey.

I've read quite a number of things on Cage, including most all of his writings. I recently read a quite balance and informative bio of him by a British author: "The Roaring Silence - John Cage: A Life" by David Revill.

If you know more about Cage, about the context of his work *in his time*, and the arc of his development as both an artist and a person, you might find something of value. If nothing else, your opinions would be more informed.

Cheers,
Jon

>Carl, your harrumphing of the accomplishments of John Cage
>parallel your past complaining about opera when you later
>admitted you hadn't even heard anything by Puccini.

That was a discussion about the operatic style of singing,
not opera composition! I've been a huge fan of Monteverdi,
Mozart, and Verdi operas for years. And I've seen operas
in many of the great opera houses in Europe, and in Sydney.

>It is great to have opinions, and you are welcome to yours,
>but you seem to have a profound tendency to trash things
>when you haven't fully investigated them, and I think that
>you have a better brain than that.

Well, if one listens to anything voluntarily for long enough
he'll tend to like it. That's basic pyschology. How do
you know how much Cage I've heard? My composition teacher
at IU happened to be a huge Cage fan.

>Yet, for all those more esoteric explorations, his earlier
>work is most definitely grounded in what you would
>consider 'composition'. Have you not listened to "Sonatas
>and Interludes"?

Why yes, Jon, I have. In my previous post I discuss how
I found it to be a torturous waste of time.

>Are you aware of the John Cage / Lou Harrison collaborative
>piece "Double Music"? The ground-breaking "Constructions"
>series?

I'm aware of it, though I haven't heard it. Though I have
heard *many* Lou Harrison recordings, and I'm afriad I don't
much care for his music either. Some of it is ok. Medium,
maybe.

> And the fact that Cage was one of the very first to attempt
> to reconcile and engage both Western and Eastern aesthetics
> and philosophies can't be pettily ignored.

Spare me. I don't know of any Eastern aesthetic, but I have
studied Eastern philosophy in depth, and I fail to see any
connection with Cage. I can claim a connection to the King
of Spain but that does not create one. I can pedal philosophy
to New York yuppies but that does not make me a philosopher.

>These things were being done at a time when it was not
>conceivable for Western artists to utilize the sounds and
>philosophies

Exactly how does an artist utilize a philosophy?

> If you know more about Cage, about the context of his work
> *in his time*, and the arc of his development as both an
> artist and a person, you might find something of value. If
> nothing else, your opinions would be more informed.

I've considered things in their time... in some sense, the
Beatles were more advanced musically in their time than say,
Phish is today, even though Phish's music is in some absolute
sense more complex. But real art is timeless. Landini or
Bach sound as good now as they did in their day. You can't
change a note. Philosophy is timeless (at least the hortatory
stuff). The Cynics addressed the same issues in Classical
Greece that we face today.

As a fan of Partch, I wonder what you think of Harry's remarks
about Cage. Guys like Partch and Nancarrow lived and still
exist in the shadow of Cage, while theirs is the true century-
class work. Want to talk about artists living in poverty and
obscurity to create works of genius, don't expect me to shed a
tear for Cage.

-Carl

In a message dated 8/30/03 7:38:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, clumma@...
writes:

> Have you not listened to "Sonatas
> >and Interludes"?
>
> Why yes, Jon, I have. In my previous post I discuss how
> I found it to be a torturous waste of time.
>
>

Carl, this is only your opinion, one I and many others do not share.
"Sonatas and Interludes" is a brilliant work for piano, one I continue to enjoy time
and time again. You remind me of how I hated some of the avante art at the
Whitney museum, thinking how bad some of it was because I thought..."I could do
that!" But as time marched on, I realized I hadn't. You may hate Andy Warhol
for similar reasons, while I don't "get" Picasso. But this is still all just
personal opinion. Cage did us all a huge favor, even you.

best, Johnny Reinhard

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:

/metatuning/topicId_5538.html#5581

> > ***I was thinking about this, and it occurred to me that
> > almost *every* living composer would acknowledge the
> > extraordinary influence of Cage, even the *most
> > conservative* composer, whether they particularly cared
> > for his music or methods or not!
>
> It's his extraordinary influence that I'm complaining
> about!
>

***But, that's the thing, Carl! Do you think if everything he said
or did had no value he would have that kind of influence??

If so, you must be thinking that people are incredibly gullible.

[I'm learning in my "advancing..." :( years to not underestimate
people the way I used to...]

J. Pehrson

> > Why yes, Jon, I have. In my previous post I discuss how
> > I found it to be a torturous waste of time.
> >
> >
>
> Carl, this is only your opinion, one I and many others do not
> share.

Of course. It's just discussion.

-Carl

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> That was a discussion about the operatic style of singing,
> not opera composition!

Nonetheless, you sit up and offer big-time opinionating without having a breadth of knowledge of the art form of which you are speaking, and it tends to weaken the import of your pronouncements. To claim knowledge of opera, and operatic styles, while never having investigated one of the pinnacle composers of opera, is fairly lame. Or audatious, at the least.

> And I've seen operas
> in many of the great opera houses in Europe, and in Sydney.

And no Puccini? Astounding.

> Well, if one listens to anything voluntarily for long enough
> he'll tend to like it.

What does that have to do with anything?

> That's basic pyschology. How do
> you know how much Cage I've heard?

I don't. But you show a rather pronounced lack of background to be slamming him the way you are.

>> Have you not listened to "Sonatas and Interludes"?
>
> Why yes, Jon, I have. In my previous post I discuss how
> I found it to be a torturous waste of time.

You said: "I sat through a "prepared" piano piece of his once, which amounted to torture..."

You did not say that you had listened to S and I, and I am not a mind-reader. For many people, myself included, I find S and I to be compelling and important musical creations.

> >Are you aware of the John Cage / Lou Harrison collaborative
> >piece "Double Music"? The ground-breaking "Constructions"
> >series?
>
> I'm aware of it, though I haven't heard it. Though I have
> heard *many* Lou Harrison recordings, and I'm afriad I don't
> much care for his music either. Some of it is ok. Medium,
> maybe.

Hmmm.

> Spare me. I don't know of any Eastern aesthetic, but I have
> studied Eastern philosophy in depth, and I fail to see any
> connection with Cage.

You have now put in plain text confirmation that you know very little about Cage. Zen Buddhism became a huge influence on his creative path.

> >These things were being done at a time when it was not
> >conceivable for Western artists to utilize the sounds and
> >philosophies
>
> Exactly how does an artist utilize a philosophy?

You've got to be kidding.

> I've considered things in their time... in some sense, the
> Beatles were more advanced musically in their time than say,
> Phish is today, even though Phish's music is in some absolute
> sense more complex. But real art is timeless.

Some art is timeless. Some art is ephemiral, and of the moment. I don't happen to buy into the idea that if something survives that it is, prima face, 'great art'. There are great artists that create in the moment, and create art that lasts but a short time. I'm not tying this to Cage, but there are applications.

But you seem to completely miss the point that some artists work - in their time - in expanding creative horizons, and once that day is passed what once seemed revolutionary becomes somewhat commonplace. When one views their work in context, the impact can be seen, especially when someone like yourself bemoans the 'influence' that the artist seems to have had (which you obviously believe is bogus at best, destructive at worst).

> As a fan of Partch, I wonder what you think of Harry's remarks
> about Cage.

I can remember a long afternoon talk with Harry about this very subject. It is well-known he couldn't stand the guy, but it is a very complicated subject when you are talking about 'life issues', and whether one composer got grants, etc., and another didn't. HP felt betrayed by many people who would follow and support paths other than his, and a lot of it was wrapped up in daily existance; other parts of it were purely aesthetic. But that was Harry, not me.

> Guys like Partch and Nancarrow lived and still
> exist in the shadow of Cage, while theirs is the true century-
> class work. Want to talk about artists living in poverty and
> obscurity to create works of genius, don't expect me to shed a
> tear for Cage.

No one asked you to, as you are (like me) just some bloke with a box full of opinions. Life isn't fair, and HP knew about that better than you do. But you devalue Cage without (seemingly) knowing much about his background and the genesis of much of his work. At least Harry knew about Cage when he trashed him.

Cheers,
Jon

>Nonetheless, you sit up and offer big-time opinionating
>without having a breadth of knowledge of the art form of
>which you are speaking, and it tends to weaken the import
>of your pronouncements. To claim knowledge of opera, and
>operatic styles, while never having investigated one of
>the pinnacle composers of opera, is fairly lame. Or
>audatious, at the least.

Nah. Having an opinion about the vocal technique does
not require knowledge of Puccini.

>>And I've seen operas in many of the great opera houses
>>in Europe, and in Sydney.
>
> And no Puccini? Astounding.

I haven't seen any of his operas, but of course I've
heard some of them. But I never got to know the music.

> >> Have you not listened to "Sonatas and Interludes"?
> >
> > Why yes, Jon, I have. In my previous post I discuss
> > how I found it to be a torturous waste of time.
>
> You said: "I sat through a "prepared" piano piece of
> his once, which amounted to torture..."

Yeah; sorry; forgot I didn't mention it by name.

> > Spare me. I don't know of any Eastern aesthetic, but I
> > have studied Eastern philosophy in depth, and I fail to
> > see any connection with Cage.
>
> You have now put in plain text confirmation that you know
> very little about Cage. Zen Buddhism became a huge influence
> on his creative path.

By "any connection", I meant Cage failed to make any
connection with it. Maybe this became clear farther down
in my post. Of course I am a quite fond of the bit from
Gilmore's Partch bio, where Partch says he doesn't give a
fuck about Zen Buddhism, and an audience member declares,
"There is a real Zen Buddhist!".

>>>These things were being done at a time when it was not
>>>conceivable for Western artists to utilize the sounds and
>>>philosophies
>>
>>Exactly how does an artist utilize a philosophy?
>
>You've got to be kidding.

Ok, I take it back. I was thinking of philosophical
disciplines, and intentional utilization. To sit down and
write music that "utilizes", for example, Hegel's dialectic,
is flim-flam. Music for me has a philosophical component,
but it is its own. If your music is about Zen Buddhism, it
is because it is so, not because you chose that for it.
There would be no issue of announcing it. Perhaps Beethoven
"utilizes" Schiller, but... I guess what I'm trying to say
is that I find Cage's approach dryly academic.

> Some art is timeless. Some art is ephemiral, and of the
> moment. I don't happen to buy into the idea that if something
> survives that it is, prima face, 'great art'.

I'll buy that.

> At least Harry knew about Cage when he trashed him.

Ok, Jon, what are the sources on Cage I'm missing out on?

-Carl

> > It's his extraordinary influence that I'm complaining
> > about!
> >
>
> ***But, that's the thing, Carl! Do you think if everything he
> said or did had no value he would have that kind of influence??
>
> If so, you must be thinking that people are incredibly gullible.
>
> [I'm learning in my "advancing..." :( years to not underestimate
> people the way I used to...]

Right on. I suppose there's no accounting for taste.

-Carl

All I can say is my CD of Cage's String Quartets is a front-runner for the
prize of "CD I most regret wasting my money on."

Dante

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:

/metatuning/topicId_5538.html#5591

> > > It's his extraordinary influence that I'm complaining
> > > about!
> > >
> >
> > ***But, that's the thing, Carl! Do you think if everything he
> > said or did had no value he would have that kind of influence??
> >
> > If so, you must be thinking that people are incredibly gullible.
> >
> > [I'm learning in my "advancing..." :( years to not underestimate
> > people the way I used to...]
>
> Right on. I suppose there's no accounting for taste.
>
> -Carl

***And, of course, Carl, there is no reason why you should have to
like (or maybe even respect, Cage.) You won't be the first,
especially among some of the more traditional performing musicians
around...

However, I would agree with Jon that you should become a bit more
familiar with it. I would start with the writings (actually they're
mostly *better* :) except for the early toy piano pieces (superb) and
a few other things here and there.

I would think that "reading" his book _Silence_ (or at least looking
at the pictures, since it is somewhat graphic) would be de rigeur.

If you don't laugh at some of the anecdotes and comments, I will be
forced to conclude that you must be an alien from another planet...

J. Pehrson

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>

/metatuning/topicId_5538.html#5593
>
> However, I would agree with Jon that you should become a bit more
> familiar with it. I would start with the writings (actually
they're
> mostly *better* :) except for the early toy piano pieces (superb)
and
> a few other things here and there.
>

***I meant "prepared piano" rather than "toy piano" in the above...

J. Pehrson

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@i...> wrote:
> All I can say is my CD of Cage's String Quartets is a front-runner for the
> prize of "CD I most regret wasting my money on."

Good call. Send it out my way and I'll microwave a matching set of coasters, using my Easley Blackwood "Microtonal Etudes".

Cheers,
Jon

your kidding? which one vol 1 or 2

Dante Rosati wrote:

> All I can say is my CD of Cage's String Quartets is a front-runner for the
> prize of "CD I most regret wasting my money on."
>
> Dante
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
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> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
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>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
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>
>
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-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

Carl,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> I haven't seen any of his operas, but of course I've
> heard some of them. But I never got to know the music.

I'm firmly in the camp of non-lovers of opera, and when I have to sit in the pit and listen to the wobbling screeches on stage it drive me bats. But I have to say that every Puccini opera I've ever performed or seen has always left me with one thought: "Why, oh why, didn't he write any orchestral music? Or chamber music, or an oratorio?"

G. Puccini was gifted in three ways: melodies so singable and beautiful that they seem to be natural phenomena, an intriguing sense of harmony, and orchestrational chops to die for.

> Ok, I take it back. I was thinking of philosophical
> disciplines, and intentional utilization. To sit down and
> write music that "utilizes", for example, Hegel's dialectic,
> is flim-flam. Music for me has a philosophical component,
> but it is its own. If your music is about Zen Buddhism, it
> is because it is so, not because you chose that for it.
> There would be no issue of announcing it. Perhaps Beethoven
> "utilizes" Schiller, but... I guess what I'm trying to say
> is that I find Cage's approach dryly academic.

With that very last statement I can certainly find some agreement. And this is one of the places where the philosophy doesn't always pan out in good aural results - the chance operations, to my sensibilities, produced increasingly unlistenable (or at least uninteresting) results. But if you watch Cage's development, the parallels between Eastern aesthetics and his approach to organizing sound are enlightening.

One could say that putting plants in the ground won't reflect a general aesthetic, but I think the difference between an English country garden and a Japanese Zen garden are compelling. It isn't just what they are, but *why* they are.

> Ok, Jon, what are the sources on Cage I'm missing out on?

I would just think a good bio that traces the arc of his artistic life would be of interest to you; there are others, but I do like the one I put in that last post (by Revill). He was, among other things, a man of great wit and charm, and while some stuff may come off as fluffery, I think a lot of Cage, when viewed in context with the world events of their time, is a worthwhile look at the path of the creative arts in the last century.

Cheers,
Jon

he does have some nice toy piano piece too. i keep meaning to retune some as it shouldn't be too hard.

Joseph Pehrson wrote:

> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
>
> /metatuning/topicId_5538.html#5593
> >
> > However, I would agree with Jon that you should become a bit more
> > familiar with it. I would start with the writings (actually
> they're
> > mostly *better* :) except for the early toy piano pieces (superb)
> and
> > a few other things here and there.
> >
>
> ***I meant "prepared piano" rather than "toy piano" in the above...
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

>Send it out my way and I'll microwave a matching set of
>coasters, using my Easley Blackwood "Microtonal Etudes".

Aaaa!

-Carl

ok ! Jon! but the latter will never match being thinner

Jon Szanto wrote:

> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@i...> wrote:
> > All I can say is my CD of Cage's String Quartets is a front-runner for the
> > prize of "CD I most regret wasting my money on."
>
> Good call. Send it out my way and I'll microwave a matching set of coasters, using my Easley Blackwood "Microtonal Etudes".
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

mustabeen vol. 1, it was 10 yrs ago. I dont seem to have it anymore (sorry
Jon!) I musta lent it to someone.

Dante

> -----Original Message-----
> From: kraig grady [mailto:kraiggrady@...]
> Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 11:05 AM
> To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [metatuning] Re: Cage's _Organ2_ in Halberstadt, Germany
>
>
> your kidding? which one vol 1 or 2
>
> Dante Rosati wrote:
>
> > All I can say is my CD of Cage's String Quartets is a
> front-runner for the
> > prize of "CD I most regret wasting my money on."
> >
> > Dante
> >
> >
> > Meta Tuning meta-info:
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
> >
> > To post to the list, send to
> > metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > You don't have to be a member to post.
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> -- -Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
> http://www.anaphoria.com
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST
>
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, kraig grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
> ok ! Jon! but the latter will never match being thinner

Who wants uniformity? I don't even like ETs!!

Cheers,
Jon

must admit rarely listen to this one- even seen these pieces live have left me cold. vol.2 ( i hope we are
referring to arditti on Mode)
is really quite a bit different which might explain why they grouped it the way they did. quartet in 4 parts is the
earliest and used to exist as the flip side of an album with Crumb's Dark Angel. this should have been vol 1 for that
reason alone.
this particular organ piece in this context seems more to do with PR than real musicality. Perhaps Cage was more
corporeal than we give him credit, possibly more interested in what was 'humanly' possibly in term or duration.

Dante Rosati wrote:

> mustabeen vol. 1, it was 10 yrs ago. I dont seem to have it anymore (sorry
> Jon!) I musta lent it to someone.
>
> Dante
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST