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Mideast Rant
by: Anonymous

----------------------------------------------------

In order to be a supporter of Israel, you must believe:

No one cared about Palestine until the Jews came and
"fixed it up". The Palestinians didn't care about their
homes and land. They were happy to leave and live in
refugee camps.

Jews need the occupied territories as part of their "safe
haven" from worldwide persecution. A Jewish person is
safer in the Gaza Strip than, say, Los Angeles.

It is the responsibility of other Arab nations to solve
the Palestinian refugee problem which the Israelis created.

Events which happened 3,000 years ago are relevant to
today, but 1948 and 1967 were a long time ago, and bygones
should be bygones.

When the UN voted in 1997 on General Assembly Resolution
52/52, 155 countries were wrong and only the U.S. and
Israel were right.

Because some Palestinians are terrorists, all
Palestinians deserve to be punished.

Anyone who has compassion for Palestinians is anti-Semitic
and hates all Jewish people.

The UN Security Council was dispassionate and objective
when it granted Israel's right to exist a few years after
the Nazi Holocaust, but was "just kidding" when it passed
242 & 338.

God gave this land to the Jews. God is a racist.

The Palestinians need to make more concessions for peace.
Their homes, their land, and their basic freedoms are not
enough. When Israel takes land militarily and then gives
some back, it is making a "concession". When
Palestinians lose land because they cannot defend against
the Israeli war machine, they are not making a concession.

The story of the holocaust at Auschwitz cannot be told
enough, but the massacre at Deir Yassin should be
forgotten.

When NPR correspondents such as Linda Gradstein and Eric
Weiner file reports which suggest that the Israeli
government might not be granting Arab Israelis exactly the
same rights as Jewish Israelis, then this only proves that
the media is biased against Israel.

It's not good to mix religion and government; unless the
religion is Judaism, in which case it's a splendid idea.

----------------------------------------------------

-C.

possibly we should drop this subject for the time being. As much as i sympathize we maybe a point or two, we could
always balence it out with the equally valid. we have humans on both sides in a horrible locking of horns. possibly
we could learn from a Joseph Beuys who might who might suggest that the wall need to be raised 5 Cm (better
proportions) or placing felt at those places of turmoil. More is accomplish than repeating the words of others (which
i have been guity of myself).
Historically, artist have been extension of what poets used to do; the latter would be the recorder of battles
"outside" the propaganda of either side. As much as we are under attack, and i will most clearly state that artist
are under attack, we should have even less investment in functioning as propaganda elements. What can i possibly know
about the middle east except what others tell me, why we should accept this type of second hand information is always
dangerous. If an accident happens a block away , no matter how many of my neighbors tell me what happened, i cannot
resist going there cause i will always get more out of it somehow.
Corruption is a whole other ball of wax (not the Beuys kind) and transends politics. This usually has a direct
effect upon myself. We are is such sick shape here that possibly we should clean our own house before we tell others
how to.

Carl Lumma wrote:

> Mideast Rant
> by: Anonymous
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

Since Carl feels this deserves a response, I feel obligated to do so. That
he feels this "anonymous" rant should be included on this list is unfortunate
(least of all because now I have to respond in detail). I do not feel it is
fit to put anti-Palestinian or anti-Arabic diatribes on this list, however. Nor
do I think this is the place for Ku Klux Klan rants, etc. But since it is …
here …, there is little choice. There is no reason to construe that my
response signifies any belief in the opposite of what is ranted below, however.

Mideast Rant by: Anonymous posted by Carl Lumma for response
…the choice of an anonymous is the first hint of inappropriateness to this
list.
----------------------------------------------------

In order to be a supporter of Israel, you must believe:

No one cared about Palestine until the Jews came and
"fixed it up". The Palestinians didn't care about their
homes and land. They were happy to leave and live in
refugee camps.
…no one cared about he natives/indigenous peoples anywhere in the world by
extension. The Palestinians were not happy about their lot, but they did end up
in refugee camps after a failed war by themselves, Egypt, Jordan, and Syria.

Jews need the occupied territories as part of their "safe
haven" from worldwide persecution. A Jewish person is
safer in the Gaza Strip than, say, Los Angeles.
…this is anti-Semitism, for it is "Jews" that are addressed here, not
Israelis. "Persecution" is not the same as annihilation. Jews are safer in the US
than in most anywhere else in the world, however. "Owning" Gaza Strip is like
putting your head into a hungry lion, but keeping its jaws open. Clearly,
even this list is not a "safe haven" for Jews.

It is the responsibility of other Arab nations to solve
the Palestinian refugee problem which the Israelis created.
…Actually, Europe created Israel through its policies of death and the
resultant Balfour Declaration of England. By 1948 Jews were a decimated people,
unlikely to dislodge anyone for their land. Arab nations played a part in
destroying its ancient Jewish citizens as well, people who were older than the
Muslims that converted later.

Events which happened 3,000 years ago are relevant to
today, but 1948 and 1967 were a long time ago, and bygones
should be bygones.
…nothing is mutually exclusive. We are all descended from people living
3,000 years before and earlier. Perhaps Jews remember a bit more than some
others.

The lesson of the Nazi holocaust is not that it is wrong
to persecute people based on their ancestry/religion; the
lesson of the Nazi holocaust is that it is wrong to
persecute Jews based on their ancestry/religion.
…again 'persecute' is the wrong word for the Nazis. The holocaust was only
the most recent development of over a thousand years of persecution AND
annihilation (but for individual cities, etc. Worms, Mainz, Nordhausen. etc.). The
difference, explained to me by Germans, is that the Holocaust was the most
highly engineered destruction of a people in human history. (sounds like
backhanded credit by the Germans a bit too much for my taste.) It is often said the
Kurds have no friends, and this list can be added to by many other peoples.
Jews, being older, were more known and even through anti-Semitism in world
leaders (including US presidents), they needed a solution that was less final
than that of Hitler's.

When the UN voted in 1997 on General Assembly Resolution
52/52, 155 countries were wrong and only the U.S. and
Israel were right.
…Israel is wrong in its paranoia, as well as when it wants to either
monopolize or to take advantage. But it cannot trust the UN. That is the lesson of
Kurt Waldheim and of Srebrenicia.

Because some Palestinians are terrorists, all
Palestinians deserve to be punished.
…just crap

As Ariel Sharon said: Settlements in the occupied
territories need to expand because of "natural population
growth". It is natural and necessary for these settlers
to have birth rates averaging more than seven children per
family.
…settlement extension is wrong and many Jews have acknowledged that. This is
ignored by those that can't imagine it in a black/white explanation of a
complex situation. For example, Palestinian cities like Hebron have had Jewish
settlement for centuries, and within the human memory of many moderns.

It was irrational for the Palestinians to react violently
to the Zionist movement in the first half of the 20th
century because, after all, the goal of the Zionists was
merely to transform their land into a Jewish theocracy in
which Arabs would be second-class citizens in their own
country. The Palestinians were paranoid in believing that
this might actually happen.
…to listen to some Europeans, it was irrational for Jews to defend themselves
at all. When seen as a vast Arabic world, one accomplished by taking over
the people's and religions of those people's, Palestine seems quite small. Jews
were once widespread and are now with their backs against the proverbial walls
….wait, oh right, they are actually erecting physical walls.

Anyone who has compassion for Palestinians is anti-Semitic
and hates all Jewish people.
…this would mean that Carl is anti-Semitic, as well as myself. Since I am
not, and I prefer to believe that Carl is not (unless he would like to come out
as an anti-Semite), this is just crap.

When Palestinians kill Israelis they are irrational
"terrorists" contributing to the cycle of violence; but
when Israelis kill Palestinians it is reasonable to expect
that this "retaliation" will lead to peace.
…to me it is irrational to turn to suicide murders of innocents. For Israel
to respond is to be expected. Leading to Peace is not the reason for either
side. But it does sound like this one-sided diatribe by anonymous does not
belong in Metatuning.

The UN Security Council was dispassionate and objective
when it granted Israel's right to exist a few years after
the Nazi Holocaust, but was "just kidding" when it passed
242 & 338.
…And the Popes were only kidding about covering up the sexual destruction of
the youth in their care.

The Palestinians think with one mind. They are all
terrorists; they all want to kill all Jews and destroy
Israel. Yasser Arafat is the Palestinian Borg Queen. If
he ordered an end to all violence, all the Palestinians
would obey his command.
…and yet they have a centralized leadership under Arafat since the Balfour
Declaration. Is it too much to assume a difference between a central command
that orders murders of innocents and one that treats the death of innocents of
bystanders as unfortunate? I admit they are quite close. But musical
intervals can be close and yet different.

It is an unknowable mystery why Ariel Sharon took
hundreds of troops to occupy the Temple Mount on
September 28, 2000, but it couldn't possibly have been
because he wanted to incite Palestinian anger and thereby
torpedo the peace talks.
….how amazingly effective Sharon was if that was his aim. Why wouldn't
Sharon have since just bombed the hell out of Gaza as an example to the West Bank,
as the Nazis did to Rotterdam as an example to Amsterdam? (I better answer
this because some may not recognize that I was being rhetorical.) Sharon is
doing more of a tit for tat in his "terrorism" than he is destroying.

God gave this land to the Jews. God is a racist.
…there is no god. And there are no races.

The story of the holocaust at Auschwitz cannot be told
enough, but the massacre at Deir Yassin should be
forgotten.
…I just have to let this one go. I'd ask my Dad why he has the initials KL
on his arm even those these are not his initials. And then there are those
pesky numbers on his arm…But that would have ruined the family get together we
had yesterday.

It's not good to mix religion and government; unless the
religion is Judaism, in which case it's a splendid idea.
…none of this has anything to do with religion to me. And yet I am forced to
respond to this sickness. I agree with Kraig, please, a moratorium. In
Jesus' name.

----------------------------------------------------

-C.

-J.

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, kraig grady <kraiggrady@a...>

/metatuning/topicId_5367.html#5392

wrote:
> possibly we should drop this subject for the time being. As much as
i sympathize we maybe a point or two, we could
> always balence it out with the equally valid. we have humans on
both sides in a horrible locking of horns. possibly
> we could learn from a Joseph Beuys

***Yeah.. quite an interesting artist...

J. Pehrson

the best i think!

Joseph Pehrson wrote:

>
> > we could learn from a Joseph Beuys
>
> ***Yeah.. quite an interesting artist...
>
> J. Pehrson
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

>Since Carl feels this deserves a response,

Johnny's referring to offline correspondence which went
thus:

>> Are you making a statement that this is what you believe?
>
>No.
>
>> Are you asking for someone to refute some or all of the
>> statement made by Anonymous?
>
>In a sense, yes. By posting to a list we're asking for
>comment.
//

>That he feels this "anonymous" rant should be included on
>this list is unfortunate

Why is it unfortunate? And why is "anonymous" in quotes?
I've never heard of half of the events mentioned in the
rant.

>> It's not good to mix religion and government; unless the
>> religion is Judaism, in which case it's a splendid idea.
>
> None of this has anything to do with religion to me. And
> yet I am forced to respond to this sickness. I agree with
> Kraig, please, a moratorium. In Jesus' name.

Ok, ok, I won't post any more on this. I learned all I know
about this topic from this forum, so when I saw this, I posted
it here because I wouldn't know enough to refute it. Thanks
for replying though I certainly didn't mean you to feel forced.

-Carl

In a message dated 8/18/03 7:02:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, clumma@...
writes:

> Why is it unfortunate? And why is "anonymous" in quotes?
> I've never heard of half of the events mentioned in the rant.

Carl, when someone makes statements like those in the anonymous article, they
can only be made to stand by their assertions by putting their name to them.
Otherwise, any bigot can write any hurtful things ad infinitum. As you have
mentioned before, this is a public list. Perhaps if you have questions about
this painful subject you could write privately, or put your own name to
statements.

> >> It's not good to mix religion and government; unless the
> >> religion is Judaism, in which case it's a splendid idea.
> >
> > None of this has anything to do with religion to me. And
> > yet I am forced to respond to this sickness. I agree with
> > Kraig, please, a moratorium. In Jesus' name.
>
> Ok, ok, I won't post any more on this. I learned all I know
> about this topic from this forum, so when I saw this, I posted
> it here because I wouldn't know enough to refute it. Thanks
> for replying though I certainly didn't mean you to feel forced.
>
> -Carl

I'm sorry I find it so painful. I am sorry so few can respond. I am
extremely sorry that there is such hatred and violence in the world we live in. And
I do hope my response was helpful to you.

best, Johnny

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> > Why is it unfortunate? And why is "anonymous" in quotes?
> > I've never heard of half of the events mentioned in the rant.
>
//
> Perhaps if you have questions about this painful subject you
> could write privately, or put your own name to
> statements.

Once again this was a *forwarded* message.

-Carl

In a message dated 8/18/03 8:57:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, clumma@...
writes:

> Once again this was a *forwarded* message.
>
>

Yes, that much is obvious. Johnny

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fwd: Mideast Rant

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@...>

🔗kraig grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗Afmmjr@...

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@...>

🔗kraig grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@...>

🔗Afmmjr@...

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@...>

🔗Afmmjr@...