What rocks, what doesn't...

We've recently broached the subject of classical vs. other forms of music. =
Is Beethoven the progenitor of boogie-woogie, did the French simultaneously =
invent jazz harmony, just how cool is Linkin Park, can white men jump, etc.

So I found it interesting to read Alex Ross' notes on the Bang On A Can Fes=
tival (even more interesting that Steve Schick just left the house a few min=
utes ago) in the latest New Yorker. The first para says most of what I've be=
en thinking:

"In the nineteen-twenties, various composers, not a few of them French, set=
out to write music inspired by jazz. The idea was that jazz would serve as =
raw material for the ultra-sophisticated imagination of the classical flâneu=
r. It did not occur to these brave explorers of the musical wilderness that =
jazz was a new art form that had no need to be elevated by the European mind=
. Their conception of African-American music was opaque at best, racist at w=
orst. "These entertainments are not art," Jean Cocteau wrote in an influenti=
al manifesto. "They excite like machines, animals, landscapes, danger." A sc=
ant two years later, Cocteau was declaring that jazz was over. In the end, a=
ll products of this sensibility, Stravinsky's jazz pieces included, pale nex=
t to the three-minute masterpieces of Armstrong and Ellington."

If you want to read the article, it's at:

http://tinyurl.com/fibn

Cheers,
Jon

>So I found it interesting to read Alex Ross' notes on
>the Bang On A Can Festival
//
>"In the nineteen-twenties, various composers, not a few of
>them French, setout to write music inspired by jazz. The
>idea was that jazz would serve as raw material for the
>ultra-sophisticated imagination of the classical flâneur.

blah blah blah

I was talking 1860-1880.

Gershwin also went to France.

I hate Linkin Park. How'd they wind up in a discussion
of prog?

-Carl

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> blah blah blah

Are you denying it, or just that you've heard it all before?

> I was talking 1860-1880.

If you think the French 'invented' jazz harmonies in those two decades, then... um, I don't know what to say!

> Gershwin also went to France.

Long after jazz, as an African-American idiom, was firmly established. He was a follower, and while I enjoy much of his stuff (and it is even more fun to perform), he is a follower. People only think "Porgy" as the great breakthrough because racism kept Joplin's "Treemonisha" from major performances until decades after it's composition.

> I hate Linkin Park. How'd they wind up in a discussion of prog?

Who said this was a discussion of prog? It ties together a number of threads, including JP 'discovering' Linkin Park. You may not have joined in on that particular discussion.

Cheers,
Jon

Hello Jon!
The issue runs deeper than just Jazz. Before Puccini and Verdi, main characters in dramas and narratives were always of the upper
classes. By the twenties /post Rite of Spring, the raising of the so called "primitive" elements of humanity were at the forefront as subject
manner. It seems logical that many of these Charactures would be negative. Cocteau words are out of line , but honestly he raises just as
much stink about the "avant-garde" in general which is amply portrayed as orpheus' rival in his films both Orpheus and the testament of
Orpheus. At the time, the desire to offend was high and riots were what people went out for as entertainment. I imagine the jazz that was in
paris was not of the caliber of the men you mention.
I actually saw the Joffrey doing a restaging of the original Rite of Spring (minus the riot) and it made the so much clearer.
It pretty much did not cast these far eastern russian people in a good light at all.

Jon Szanto wrote:

> We've recently broached the subject of classical vs. other forms of music. =
>
> Is Beethoven the progenitor of boogie-woogie, did the French simultaneously =
>
> invent jazz harmony, just how cool is Linkin Park, can white men jump, etc.
>
> So I found it interesting to read Alex Ross' notes on the Bang On A Can Fes=
>
> tival (even more interesting that Steve Schick just left the house a few min=
>
> utes ago) in the latest New Yorker. The first para says most of what I've be=
>
> en thinking:
>
> "In the nineteen-twenties, various composers, not a few of them French, set=
>
> out to write music inspired by jazz. The idea was that jazz would serve as =
>
> raw material for the ultra-sophisticated imagination of the classical fl�neu=
>
> r. It did not occur to these brave explorers of the musical wilderness that =
>
> jazz was a new art form that had no need to be elevated by the European mind=
>
> . Their conception of African-American music was opaque at best, racist at w=
>
> orst. "These entertainments are not art," Jean Cocteau wrote in an influenti=
>
> al manifesto. "They excite like machines, animals, landscapes, danger." A sc=
>
> ant two years later, Cocteau was declaring that jazz was over. In the end, a=
>
> ll products of this sensibility, Stravinsky's jazz pieces included, pale nex=
>
> t to the three-minute masterpieces of Armstrong and Ellington."
>
> If you want to read the article, it's at:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/fibn
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
> The issue runs deeper than just Jazz.

Kraig, I certainly agree with you on that, and I was merely trying to restrict my note to one of the more narrow areas that had been touched on around here. The appropriation of one kind of 'art' by another, the attempt to 'legitimize' forms that come from 'illegitimate' sources - all of this reeks of imperialism, classism, and more. They take the trappings, throw away the guts, and wear the mock essence of the real thing, all the while smiling at each other and telling each other how swell it is to be wrapped in the exotic.

Cheers,
Jon

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kraig Grady" <kraiggrady@...>

> I actually saw the Joffrey doing a restaging of the
> original Rite of Spring (minus the riot) and it made the so much clearer.
> It pretty much did not cast these far eastern russian people in a good
light at all.

How depressing. I love the Rite of Spring as music.

* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, David Beardsley <db@b...> wrote:
> I love the Rite of Spring as music.

Speaking of music, how was your show tonight?

Cheers,
Jon

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@...>
To: <metatuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 12:37 AM
Subject: [metatuning] Re: What rocks, what doesn't...

> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, David Beardsley <db@b...> wrote:
> > I love the Rite of Spring as music.
>
> Speaking of music, how was your show tonight?

I thought I had a great show at Three Jewels earlier this evening.

I opened with a new piece, 13 that used the 13th harmonic
as the root note and closed with 11 that used the 11th harmonic
as the root note. Sandwiched in between were new renditions
of Around D (self explanatory) and Clouds Veil the Future
(I'll tell you later). A few times
I looped a part so I could rest, grab a drink of water
and wipe off my hands and guitar.

A small crowd enjoyed the show, works for me.
For me it was a long show, almost 90 min.
I didn't intend to do this but the guy who runs
Three Jewels wanted to promote this event
as "Music for Meditation". That's alright by me,
it is part of a larger Buddhist education center.
So there were a few people sitting to the music,
and I was inspired to play a bit more.

* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, David Beardsley <db@b...> wrote:
> I thought I had a great show at Three Jewels earlier this evening.

[Elegant description followed...]

You're doing it, Dave. Good on you from the other coast!

Cheers,
Jon

> > blah blah blah
>
> Are you denying it, or just that you've heard
> it all before?

I just dislike storytelling like that, and in
general any discussion of racism.

> > I was talking 1860-1880.
>
> If you think the French 'invented' jazz harmonies in
> those two decades, then... um, I don't know what to say!

What makes you think I think that?

> > Gershwin also went to France.
>
> Long after jazz, as an African-American idiom,

Exactly; I was pointing out that during the period
discussed in the article you quoted, crossover was
working both ways.

-Carl

Carl,

I'm sorry, but you are being quite unclear!

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> I just dislike storytelling like that, and in general any
> discussion of racism.

Then blah... wasn't a very clear way of putting it. Jazz is a music that springs from a particular racial situation, so you'll have a tough time discussing it if you ignore race entirely.

> > > I was talking 1860-1880.
> >
> > If you think the French 'invented' jazz harmonies in
> > those two decades, then... um, I don't know what to say!
>
> What makes you think I think that?

Didn't you proffer that jazz harmonies were happening at the same time in France? And now, if you're talking the time period above, you're putting it somewhat *before* the era of 'jazz birth' in the States.

> > > Gershwin also went to France.
> >
> > Long after jazz, as an African-American idiom,
>
> Exactly; I was pointing out that during the period
> discussed in the article you quoted, crossover was
> working both ways.

I see it only going in one direction: the effete French composers trying to rip off the exoticism of jazz, even if they end up aping someone like Gershwin. I doesn't appear to me that Gershwin picked up much French music, especially with the anecdotes about him wanting to study with Ravel.

Cheers,
Jon

depressing i think is what the piece is anyway. actually brutal contrasting with
naive innocents.
not much has changed

David Beardsley wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kraig Grady" <kraiggrady@...>
>
> > I actually saw the Joffrey doing a restaging of the
> > original Rite of Spring (minus the riot) and it made the so much clearer.
> > It pretty much did not cast these far eastern russian people in a good
> light at all.
>
> How depressing. I love the Rite of Spring as music.
>
> * David Beardsley
> * microtonal guitar
> * http://biink.com/db
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
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-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@...>

> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, David Beardsley <db@b...> wrote:
> > I thought I had a great show at Three Jewels earlier this evening.
>
> [Elegant description followed...]
>
> You're doing it, Dave. Good on you from the other coast!

Thanks! It's good to get out and play, really cleared my head.

* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

>>I just dislike storytelling like that, and in general any
>>discussion of racism.
>
>Then blah... wasn't a very clear way of putting it. Jazz is
>a music that springs from a particular racial situation, so
>you'll have a tough time discussing it if you ignore race
>entirely.

True, but the article quote is over the top.

>And now, if you're talking the time period above, you're
>putting it somewhat *before* the era of 'jazz birth' in the
>States.

"Ragtime began in an undocumented period prior to the 1890s".

And probably in Brazil.

>I see it only going in one direction: the effete French
>composers trying to rip off the exoticism of jazz,

Utter nonsense. There's no such thing as one-way
cultural mixtur.

"Like many European composers, Debussy was drawn to the music
of African Americans. In this piece [Golliwog's Cakewalk, from
Children's Corner], Debussy imitates the rhythmic feel of a
Cakewalk -— an African-American dance that poked fun at the
manners of white society."

"Paris at the turn of the century saw the confluence of
many vibrant artistic traditions. The French were
fascinated by the Far East, bowled over by the Russians,
seduced by the Spaniards, and wooed by American jazz.
From this cultural hotbed emerged a quintessential French
composer, Claude Debussy, (1862-1918) who revolutionized
Western music."

>even if they end up aping someone like Gershwin. I doesn't
>appear to me that Gershwin picked up much French music,
>especially with the anecdotes about him wanting to study
>with Ravel.

Have you ever listened to Gershwin's piano music?

-Carl

Hi Carl,

Well, I fear we are starting to get farther out, but let's see...

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> True, but the article quote is over the top.

In your opinion. I think it is pretty much spot on.

> "Ragtime began in an undocumented period prior to the 1890s".

Possibly.

> And probably in Brazil.

I doubt that - where did Brazil come into the mix? I'm willing to hear anecdotal evidence.

> >I see it only going in one direction: the effete French
> >composers trying to rip off the exoticism of jazz,
>
> Utter nonsense. There's no such thing as one-way
> cultural mixtur.

There can quite frequently be one-way cultural mixes, especially if you consider one area or topic. Or, maybe better put, *primarily* one-way. As in how much jazz may have influenced French classical composers, and the reverse.

> Have you ever listened to Gershwin's piano music?

Yes, including many performances of the concerto pieces as well. There are some pieces that carry an impressionistic influence, I believe it is a Nocturne. But I already consider Gershwin not a jazz composer but some sort of hybrid.

Cheers,
Jon

>>And probably in Brazil.
>
>I doubt that - where did Brazil come into the mix? I'm
>willing to hear anecdotal evidence.

I have it from an acquaintence of mine who's a music
scholar. The earliest surviving scores from South America
predate those from North America by 20 years. He played
a few of them.

http://lumma.org/stuff/early-aa.txt

>>>I see it only going in one direction: the effete French
>>>composers trying to rip off the exoticism of jazz,
>>
>> Utter nonsense. There's no such thing as one-way
>> cultural mixtur.
>
> There can quite frequently be one-way cultural mixes,

Jazz is more of a European artform than an African one.

"What began as Anglo-European practices of speech, dance,
and song were first Americanized by white America, adapted
and recreated through black America, only to be readopted
by white America and assimilated (many complain watered down)
into white culture, and utlimately reassimilated back into
the black culture again by black performers and again
remade in their own image."

-Carl

C,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> I have it from an acquaintence of mine who's a music
> scholar. The earliest surviving scores from South America
> predate those from North America by 20 years. He played
> a few of them.
>
> http://lumma.org/stuff/early-aa.txt

I'll take a look, with thanks in advance.

This:

> Jazz is more of a European artform than an African one.

...and this:

> "What began as Anglo-European practices of speech, dance...

I couldn't disagree more.

Cheers,
Jon

>

I just want to add to the mix on this discussion that it was the Cherokee who
were drumming in the parks in New Orleans and one has only to listen to the
beats in dixieland to hear where the beat comes from

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

/metatuning/topicId_5046.html#5046

> If you want to read the article, it's at:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/fibn
>
> Cheers,
> Jon

***Thanks for pointing this out, Jon. For some reason, I almost
missed it. I also missed Bang on a Can this year, although I was
intending to go. My own projects and the $25 entrance fee conspired
against it.

Glad that D.J. Spooky got a nice write-up. I bailed him out when we
worked on a Xenakis piece together and he became hopelessly lost with
his electronic cues...

J. Pehrson

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

/metatuning/topicId_5046.html#5058
>
> I see it only going in one direction: the effete French composers
trying to rip off the exoticism of jazz, even if they end up aping
someone like Gershwin. I doesn't appear to me that Gershwin picked up
much French music, especially with the anecdotes about him wanting to
study with Ravel.
>
> Cheers,
> Jon

***Actually, I've "loosened up" a bit regarding Poulenc. When I was
in my teens I hated Poulenc. I hated it because some of it sounded
like cocktail music.

Now I *like* it because it sounds like cocktail music. Age will do
it to you.... :)

J. Pehrson

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

> Long after jazz, as an African-American idiom, was firmly
established. He was a follower, and while I enjoy much of his stuff
(and it is even more fun to perform), he is a follower. People only
think "Porgy" as the great breakthrough because racism kept
Joplin's "Treemonisha" from major performances until decades after
it's composition.

With all due respect for Joplin's wonderful compositions, Treemonisha
isn't one of them.

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

>I doesn't appear to me that Gershwin picked up much French music,
especially with the anecdotes about him wanting to study with Ravel.

What does that show?

Anyway, you can study with Ravel and not end up sounding even
slightly French--Vaughan Williams proved that. In fact, I'd say it
sounds as if VW was more influenced by jazz than by Ravel.

<snip>

This dosn't: The Amazing Helicopters at http://www.aspma.com/mp3.htm

John Starrett

> From: "John Starrett" <jstarret@...>
> To: <metatuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 10:48 AM
> Subject: [metatuning] Re: What rocks, what doesn't...
>
>
> <snip>
>
> This dosn't: The Amazing Helicopters at http://www.aspma.com/mp3.htm
>
> John Starrett

boy, you got that right!

... but i sure did get a laugh out of it.

how do you guys find this stuff?

(i still can't get Wing's rendition of
"Close To You" out of my head!)

-monz