It all boils down to a beauty contest

http://makeashorterlink.com/?L2D152A82

I'm serious. The entire Muslim opposition to Ms. World in Nigeria
sums up all the problems of our time.

Conflict of Civilizations, Religions. Resistance
to "modernization..." Parts of the world "advancing" or at
least "changing" at a different rate than other parts.

The advance of quick communications and modes of travel, so that
cultures that might not have frequent contact now do...

The world is having "growing pains" of a sort, and they are of the
most reprehensible, violent kind...

J. Pehrson

The most backward thing if not out right ignorance was having it there in
the first place. What the hell is a beauty pagent if not explotation.
Imagine if they put on one of their events in let say Kansas.
It was provocation and you know it, so all of you stop acting so clueless!
really think bout it

Joseph Pehrson wrote:

> http://makeashorterlink.com/?L2D152A82
>
> I'm serious. The entire Muslim opposition to Ms. World in Nigeria
> sums up all the problems of our time.
>
> Conflict of Civilizations, Religions. Resistance
> to "modernization..." Parts of the world "advancing" or at
> least "changing" at a different rate than other parts.
>
> The advance of quick communications and modes of travel, so that
> cultures that might not have frequent contact now do...
>
> The world is having "growing pains" of a sort, and they are of the
> most reprehensible, violent kind...
>
> J. Pehrson
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM 8-9PM PST

--- In metatuning@y..., Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:

/metatuning/topicId_3514.html#3516

> The most backward thing if not out right ignorance was having it
there in
> the first place. What the hell is a beauty pagent if not
explotation.
> Imagine if they put on one of their events in let say Kansas.
> It was provocation and you know it, so all of you stop acting so
clueless!
> really think bout it
>

***Yes, I agree. The consequences have, obviously, been quite
tragic...

J. Pehrson

--- In metatuning@y..., "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> --- In metatuning@y..., Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
>
> /metatuning/topicId_3514.html#3516
>
> > The most backward thing if not out right ignorance was having it
> there in
> > the first place. What the hell is a beauty pagent if not
> explotation.
> > Imagine if they put on one of their events in let say Kansas.
> > It was provocation and you know it, so all of you stop acting so
> clueless!
> > really think bout it
> >
>
> ***Yes, I agree. The consequences have, obviously, been quite
> tragic...
>
> J. Pehrson

I don't agree, and I think the tragedy is that there are people so clueless that they can get worked into a murderous frenzy. The riots were not about the exploitation: they began over a newspaper column suggesting that Mohammed might have liked the beauty contest, and might have wanted the winner for a wife. This is a perfectly reasonable supposition, given the information given in the Quran about Mohammed. The article was the excuse used by evil clerics to fan anti Christian sentiment into a flaming rage that resulted in the deaths of hundreds and the destruction of their property.

It was only mildly stupid to hold a mildly objectional beauty contest (your opinions may vary) in a marginally Islamic (50% Islam, 40% Christian, 10% indiginous beliefs) country.

Bah! A pox on religious leaders who start these things, and their mindless followers. May they burn in Hell.

John Starrett

on 11/22/02 8:55 PM, Kraig Grady wrote:

> The most backward thing if not out right ignorance was having it there in
> the first place. What the hell is a beauty pagent if not explotation.
> Imagine if they put on one of their events in let say Kansas.
> It was provocation and you know it, so all of you stop acting so clueless!
> really think bout it

This is rather outrageous.

First of all, saying beauty pagents are exploitation is interesting. So
either the women in them don't realize they are being exploited and need to
be saved or they know they are being exploited and don't mind because they
don't love themselves enough. In either case, the woman doesn't know what
she is doing apparently and the possibility that she has entered the pageant
of her own free will is not considered possible.

I counter this by saying that most women are perfectly capable of making
their own decisions to participate in such a contest. Look at the recent
winners -- that Russian police lieutenant who knew martial arts won Miss
Universe, and that black harvard law student won Miss America this year. How
do we explain their behavior? Do they just not know any better? It's not
like they are giving the girls drugs or forcing them to sleep with the
producers or play weird psychological games to get them to do things they
don't want to, as is done in the american porno industry owned by General
Motors and AT&T.

--

So what do we do when Miss Nigeria enters the Miss World contest? Do we
refuse to accept her application? If that happened I guarantee you I'd be
hearing all about how the pagent is racist and they are dissing Nigeria and
it is not fair because Nigeria has beautiful talented women too.

So when (as last year) Miss Nigerian becomes Miss World, what then? The
custom is that the pagent is hosted in the country of the last years winner.
Do we make a special exception for Nigeria? Always in the country of the
last years winner except if it's Nigeria? If that happened you know we'd be
hearing about how the pagent is racist and they are dissing Nigeria and that
is not fair because Nigeria is a modern, enlightened country and is
perfectly capable of hosting a pagent.

So saying that it was unfair *to* host it there shows that they're dammed if
they do and dammed if they don't.

That's what makes the entire line of reasoning disingenuous!

- Jeff

"X. J. Scott" wrote:

> on 11/22/02 8:55 PM, Kraig Grady wrote:
>
> > The most backward thing if not out right ignorance was having it there in
> > the first place. What the hell is a beauty pagent if not explotation.
> > Imagine if they put on one of their events in let say Kansas.
> > It was provocation and you know it, so all of you stop acting so clueless!
> > really think bout it
>
> This is rather outrageous.
>
> First of all, saying beauty pagents are exploitation is interesting.

parading women as sex object is just that

>
> So
> either the women in them don't realize they are being exploited and need to
> be saved or they know they are being exploited and don't mind because they
> don't love themselves enough.

they do it for prize money. no one does this for free

> In either case, the woman doesn't know what
> she is doing apparently and the possibility that she has entered the pageant
> of her own free will is not considered possible.

>
>
> So what do we do when Miss Nigeria enters the Miss World contest? Do we
> refuse to accept her application? If that happened I guarantee you I'd be
> hearing all about how the pagent is racist and they are dissing Nigeria and
> it is not fair because Nigeria has beautiful talented women too.

who said this i said it was provacation to have it in a coountry where they
where going to stone a woman of adultery.
to have the contest there was probably done by someone as thick headed as
yourself who thinks there way is the bewst and they should all parade around in
no clothes wattch mildly covered child pporn and stuff your face with food if
front of the TV

>
>
> So when (as last year) Miss Nigerian becomes Miss World, what then? The
> custom is that the pagent is hosted in the country of the last years winner.
> Do we make a special exception for Nigeria? Always in the country of the
> last years winner except if it's Nigeria? If that happened you know we'd be
> hearing about how the pagent is racist and they are dissing Nigeria and that
> is not fair because Nigeria is a modern, enlightened country and is
> perfectly capable of hosting a pagent.
>
> So saying that it was unfair *to* host it there shows that they're dammed if
> they do and dammed if they don't.
>
> That's what makes the entire line of reasoning disingenuous!
>
> - Jeff
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM 8-9PM PST

On Saturday, November 23, 2002, at 03:29 , metatuning@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> "X. J. Scott" <xjscott@...>
> Subject: Re: It all boils down to a beauty contest
>
> on 11/22/02 8:55 PM, Kraig Grady wrote:
>
>> The most backward thing if not out right ignorance was having >> it there in
>> the first place. What the hell is a beauty pagent if not explotation.
>> Imagine if they put on one of their events in let say Kansas.
>> It was provocation and you know it, so all of you stop acting >> so clueless!
>> really think bout it
>
> This is rather outrageous.
>
> First of all, saying beauty pagents are exploitation is interesting. So
> either the women in them don't realize they are being exploited > and need to
> be saved or they know they are being exploited and don't mind > because they
> don't love themselves enough. In either case, the woman doesn't > know what
> she is doing apparently and the possibility that she has > entered the pageant
> of her own free will is not considered possible.

...

Nicely put, Jeff ! I agree 100%. You can even discern an undertone of what you say in reports on the incident from the BBC and NPR. Also, the rioting in Nigeria isn't really about a beauty pageant. That's just the headline and the excuse. It's about the northern Islamists seeking to take control of the country from the current Christian head of state. True story !:-)

Cheers,
- Joel

J and J!
Likewise fail to see that some culture have a certain modesty in
relationship to their woman.
Likewise if i put out a front page story that Jesus would like one of the
musle boys as an aposle. what do you think the reaction is.
Frankly to have the pagent is absurd and fowl to me in the first place.
if you are going to tell me it is about their brains than you just lie to
yourself. to have it somewhere where a woman was going to be stoned was
fowl.
If there is so much outrage over such things we should of boycotted it but
we don't cause we do get a f as long as we make money.

why don't you care about this. why don't you protest this fowl act.
You don't because it doesn't involve commmerce that is our god and we will
torture, kill, mutilate to get more.
Have you ever thought that our own little CIA boys might has started the
riots?

JUST WHAT PRINCIPLES THAT IS "PRACTICED" DO YOU CARE TO FORCE DOWN THE REST
OF THE WORLD

I 'll take rumi over the pope.

NPR?
this is a facsist organization. when KXLU refused to carry their news and
their programming they went to the FCC and did everything they could to have
our licensed taken away. here in a city where thety are carried on 4 or 5
channels anyway.

Joel Rodrigues wrote:

>
>
> ...
>
> Nicely put, Jeff ! I agree 100%. You can even discern an
> undertone of what you say in reports on the incident from the
> BBC and NPR. Also, the rioting in Nigeria isn't really about a
> beauty pageant. That's just the headline and the excuse. It's
> about the northern Islamists seeking to take control of the
> country from the current Christian head of state. True story !:-)
>
> Cheers,
> - Joel
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM 8-9PM PST

John Starrett wrote:

> --- In metatuning@y..., "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> > --- In metatuning@y..., Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
> >
> > /metatuning/topicId_3514.html#3516
> >
> > > The most backward thing if not out right ignorance was having it
> > there in
> > > the first place. What the hell is a beauty pagent if not
> > explotation.
> > > Imagine if they put on one of their events in let say Kansas.
> > > It was provocation and you know it, so all of you stop acting so
> > clueless!
> > > really think bout it
> > >
> >
> > ***Yes, I agree. The consequences have, obviously, been quite
> > tragic...
> >
> > J. Pehrson
>
> I don't agree, and I think the tragedy is that there are people so clueless that they can get worked into a murderous frenzy. The riots were not about the exploitation: they began over a newspaper column suggesting that Mohammed might have liked the beauty contest, and might have wanted the winner for a wife. This is a perfectly reasonable supposition, given the information given in the Quran about Mohammed.

THAT MOHAMMED WOULD HAVE WANTED WHAT LOOKS LIKE WHORES TO THEM IS A REASONABLE SUPPOSITION IS INSENISITIVE TO HOW THESE PEOPLE VIEW THE WORLD. .

> The article was the excuse used by evil clerics to fan anti Christian sentiment into a flaming rage that resulted in the deaths of hundreds and the destruction of their property.
>
> It was only mildly stupid to hold a mildly objectional beauty contest (your opinions may vary) in a marginally Islamic (50% Islam, 40% Christian, 10% indiginous beliefs) country.

Once again this is a place that they stone women for adultery decided upon by the court.
You are misinformed. All these views toward woman are pre islamic and independent of the breakdown between Christian and Muslim. It is the result of centuries of tribal taboos that this provoked. and i believe deliberately provoked.
WHY WOULD YOU WANT A BEAUTY PAGENT IS A PLACE WHERE THEY STONE WOMEN

>
>
> Bah! A pox on religious leaders who start these things, and their mindless followers. May they burn in Hell.

I think you need to look at just who was mindless in the first place.

>

>
>
> John Starrett
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM 8-9PM PST

That we have this stance that "everyone else is crazy" and we are"reasonable" is nothing more than propaganda to justify the mistreatment we have planned to do all along. Enjoy your slaughter it is a lot easier to really think about how this mess came to be, innocent ones!

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM 8-9PM PST

on 11/23/02 1:01 PM, Kraig Grady wrote:

> there was probably done by someone as thick headed as yourself who thinks
> there way is the bewst and they should all parade around in no clothes wattch
> mildly covered child pporn and stuff your face with food if front of the TV

OK, so far:

1. I'm not just a bigot, but the worst kind of bigot.
2. I'm not just a pervert, but I'm an thick-headed, obese nekkid consumer of
child porn on TV.

Now if someone will just argue that I am 'worse than Josef Mengel', I think
we'll have all of the major categories covered.

- Jeff

I said you appeared to me to be as thick headed AS some of these characters. Not
that you were one.
I spent years studiing the kaballeh and this lead me to the study of Islamic
thought? why ? because they are very related and both involve the products of
great thinkers. In fact many of the ideas inherent in the kaballeh were allowed to
develop further not because they were better, but because they were less
oppresssed. this is true of the entire alchemical/mystical/ magical traditions
also found in the west. It is not that they did not run into opposition as the
other places but not as wide spead or universally. The whole esoteric side of
Plato was/is preserved in their thought and although i am not islamic, their
horizon of religous thought have been highly instrumental in my understanding of
what my own personal religion has unveiled. The works of Henri Corbin are great
insights along these lines and his discussion of the importantance of the
"Creative Imagination" as in the works of Ibn Arabi. Ignorance will result
ignorant manifestations of any religion no matter how good or bad. and just as we
have the Jerry fawell's who seem to mirror the worse in other religions,
chistianity has had also the thomas Mertons or even the likening of a Pierre
Teihard de Chardin. The influence the later had on architect Pablo Solari is
interesting. having visited, reading his books and meeting him once, he is
probably as close as archetecture will come to having there own "Harry Partch"

"X. J. Scott" wrote:

>
> Now if someone will just argue that I am 'worse than Josef Mengel', I think
> we'll have all of the major categories covered.
>
> - Jeff
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM 8-9PM PST

On Sunday, November 24, 2002, at 03:22 , metatuning@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 11:48:14 -0800
> From: Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: It all boils down to a beauty contest
>
> J and J!
> Likewise fail to see that some culture have a certain modesty in
> relationship to their woman.

etc.

Come on Kraig ! One might get the idea that you don't even vaguely comprehend the idea & principle of a free democratic society. We all get to do whatever we want (more or less), and no one gets to shove their views down anyone else's throat no matter if it's religion or morality.

The rest of your response displays a remarkable lack of understanding of the way the world works and under what constraints anyone such as the EU or US, etc have to work to influence countries and societies to become free and democratic societies.

The balance between Real-Politik and freedom and humanitarianism as we of the free societies in the democratic world see it, is a very difficult thing to do. Also, not all democracies are really free societies. India for example is worlds away from the freedom that exists in the EU.

Cheers,
Joel

--- In metatuning@y..., Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
>
>
> John Starrett wrote:
>><snip>Mohammed might have liked the beauty contest, and might have >>wanted the winner for a wife. This is a perfectly reasonable >>supposition, given the information given in the Quran about >>Mohammed.
>
> THAT MOHAMMED WOULD HAVE WANTED WHAT LOOKS LIKE WHORES TO THEM IS A > REASONABLE SUPPOSITION IS INSENISITIVE TO HOW THESE PEOPLE VIEW THE > WORLD. .

I have not watched a beauty contest since I was a teenager. As I recall, the swimsuit portion was the only part where the contestants showed any more than leg and arm. Have these contests changed? Certainly a country has a right to make its own laws about what is decent and indecent, but the pageant was approved by Nigerian government officials, who one would expect to know the rules.

> > The article was the excuse used by evil clerics to fan anti >>Christian sentiment into a flaming rage that resulted in the deaths >>of hundreds and the destruction of their property.
> >
> > It was only mildly stupid to hold a mildly objectional beauty >>contest (your opinions may vary) in a marginally Islamic (50% Islam, >>40% Christian, 10% indiginous beliefs) country.
>
> Once again this is a place that they stone women for adultery >decided upon by the court.
> You are misinformed. All these views toward woman are pre islamic >and independent of the breakdown between Christian and Muslim. It is >the result of centuries of tribal taboos that this provoked. and i >believe deliberately provoked.
> WHY WOULD YOU WANT A BEAUTY PAGENT IS A PLACE WHERE THEY STONE >WOMEN

I personally would not have put the pageant there, but by pageant rules, the contest is held in the home country of last year's winner, and she was Nigerian.

> > Bah! A pox on religious leaders who start these things, and their >>mindless followers. May they burn in Hell.
>
> I think you need to look at just who was mindless in the first >place.

I agree that there is plenty of stupidity to go around here, but again, it was not me or any other ignorant westerner who approved the contest being held there, it was Nigerian government officials, who should be expected to know the mood of the country. The newspaper article was written by a Nigerian, approved by a Nigerian editor, and printed in a Nigerian paper. The crowd that rioted did not erupt spontaneously. They were worked into a frenzy by power hungry "religious" leaders.

Kraig, I understand your points, and agree with most of what you say, but I have had it up to here with these sanctimonious, lying scum calling themselves "reverend", "mullah" or whatever, whose goals are power and the utter destruction of disbelievers. I stand by my statement, "may they burn in Hell".

John Starrett

on 11/24/02 12:36 AM, Kraig Grady wrote:

> I said you appeared to me to be as thick headed AS some of these characters.
> Not that you were one.

Thick headed I can plead guilty to.

> I spent years studiing the kaballeh and this lead me to the study of Islamic
> thought? why ? because they are very related and both involve the products of
> great thinkers. ...

You have some interesting things here.

I am sympathetic to the idea that pageants are offensive to some people and
that some cultures have certain values not shared by others. But does that
mean that we should be OK with Islamists to stone women to death because
their religion requires it according to their interpretation. Or that
offense at a beauty pagent in anyway justifies burning down churches and
pouring gasoline on people and setting them on fire?

If we are going to talk about being sensitive and tollerant of Muslims, why
do we not talk about Muslims being sensitive and tolerant of the rest of te
world? Or is it because Islam is the largest religion world wide in terms of
population and land controlled that they are always right no matter what and
jews are always wrong likewise since they have the smallest population and
least amount of land controlled.

The Nigerian thing is sad because they really look like a bunch of
dumbasses.

But at least they have a religious excuse for their actions, as well as
being able to claim a certain ignorence born of poverty.

Here in this country, we are dumbasses without any such excuse:

-----

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=566&e=1&u=/ap/20021124/ap_o
n_sp_co_ne/fbc_rowdy_fans

College Football Games Spark Riots

2 hours, 37 minutes ago

By CASEY LAUGHMAN, Associated Press Writer

COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) - Police fired tear gas and wooden pellets to break up
rioting by college football fans who set fire to cars, threw bottles and
burned furniture in the streets early Sunday in celebration of Ohio State
University's victory over rival Michigan.

In the minutes after the Buckeyes' 14-9 victory, which sealed a 13-0 season
for the team and a trip to the Fiesta Bowl, fans swarmed the field and threw
chunks of turf at state troopers who used pepper spray to try to prevent
them from pulling down the goal posts.

At least a dozen fires were later set near the Columbus campus. Police said
45 people were arrested for disorderly conduct and alcohol violations.

Football celebrations got out of hand in South Carolina, California, North
Carolina and Washington, as well.

At Washington State University, fans pelted visiting players from the
winning University of Washington team with bottles, plastic souvenirs and
other debris.

"I feared for my life," Washington athletic director Barbara Hedges said

Joel Rodrigues wrote:

> On Sunday, November 24, 2002, at 03:22 ,
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 11:48:14 -0800
> > From: Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>
> > Subject: Re: Re: It all boils down to a beauty contest
> >
> > J and J!
> > Likewise fail to see that some culture have a certain modesty in
> > relationship to their woman.
>
> etc.
>
> Come on Kraig ! One might get the idea that you don't even
> vaguely comprehend the idea & principle of a free democratic
> society. We all get to do whatever we want (more or less), and
> no one gets to shove their views down anyone else's throat no
> matter if it's religion or morality.

Unfortunately this is exactly what is done and it is called imperialism and
colonialism, now called globalization

>
>
> The rest of your response displays a remarkable lack of
> understanding of the way the world works and under what
> constraints anyone such as the EU or US, etc have to work to
> influence countries and societies to become free and democratic
> societies.

The EU and The US have absolutely no interest in democracies. they are
interested in only capitalism. Every democracy that even
became a slighrt problem for the latter was crushed by every method
available. OK joel name a democracy we have helped to come into being. Like
in Afganistan that over threw the king? no the EU and the US bring back
theis despot to have a few words. What about Nicaragua. Or look at China did
the EU and the US allow exile to those who escaped tentament square. What
about Chile. What about the recent coup in Venezuela. Nope democracy sounded
great in 5th grade but i dont have any polyanna notion any more. Likewise
neither the EU or the US has attempte to feed democracy in Saudi Arabia or
Kuwait. these so called 1st world countries are only interested in other
leaders that are easily bribed and or manipulated to provide cheap labor or
will allow the complete sacking of all their natural resources.
Let us look at the free trade agreements where a group of anonomous
people can decide that certain internal national laws are too restrictive,
in which case there decision are stronger than any democratically determined
law, nor can the country appeal the decision. That is your new democracy
which boils down to, you can pass any law you like as long as it agrees with
us. And the 'us' is an unknown supreme governing body.

>
>
> The balance between Real-Politik and freedom and humanitarianism
> as we of the free societies in the democratic world see it, is a
> very difficult thing to do. Also, not all democracies are really
> free societies. India for example is worlds away from the
> freedom that exists in the EU.
>
> Cheers,
> Joel
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM 8-9PM PST

--- In metatuning@y..., Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
<snip>
> The EU and The US have absolutely no interest in democracies. they are
> interested in only capitalism. Every democracy that even
> became a slighrt problem for the latter was crushed by every method
> available. OK joel name a democracy we have helped to come into being. Like
> in Afganistan that over threw the king? no the EU and the US bring back
> theis despot to have a few words. What about Nicaragua. Or look at China did
> the EU and the US allow exile to those who escaped tentament square. What
> about Chile. What about the recent coup in Venezuela. Nope democracy sounded
> great in 5th grade but i dont have any polyanna notion any more. Likewise
> neither the EU or the US has attempte to feed democracy in Saudi Arabia or
> Kuwait. these so called 1st world countries are only interested in other
> leaders that are easily bribed and or manipulated to provide cheap labor or
> will allow the complete sacking of all their natural resources.
> Let us look at the free trade agreements where a group of anonomous
> people can decide that certain internal national laws are too restrictive,
> in which case there decision are stronger than any democratically determined
> law, nor can the country appeal the decision. That is your new democracy
> which boils down to, you can pass any law you like as long as it agrees with
> us. And the 'us' is an unknown supreme governing body.
<snip>

That is the truth. They support whatever government gives them political and economic advantage, and destroy those that don't.

John Starrett

Hello John!

John Starrett wrote:

>
> I agree that there is plenty of stupidity to go around here, but again, it was not me or any other ignorant westerner who approved the contest being held there, it was Nigerian government officials, who should be expected to know the mood of the country. The newspaper article was written by a Nigerian, approved by a Nigerian editor, and printed in a Nigerian paper. The crowd that rioted did not erupt spontaneously. They were worked into a frenzy by power hungry "religious" leaders.

I would imagine there is more than just the level of religion here, in that just as in Ireland, it is economic also. As one who witness the LA riots first hand, after the first night no one cared about Rodney king, nor were most of the people rioting Black, despite how the media decided to cover it. they were Salvadoraens, as well as other central americans, and whites going into circut city

>
>
> Kraig, I understand your points, and agree with most of what you say, but I have had it up to here with these sanctimonious, lying scum calling themselves "reverend", "mullah" or whatever, whose goals are power and the utter destruction of disbelievers. I stand by my statement, "may they burn in Hell".

those who use religion for political gain at the expense of lives will burn!

>
>
> John Starrett

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM 8-9PM PST

--- In metatuning@y..., Joel Rodrigues <jdrodrigues@P...> wrote:
> On Saturday, November 23, 2002, at 03:29 ,
> metatuning@y... wrote:
>
> > "X. J. Scott" <xjscott@e...>
> > Subject: Re: It all boils down to a beauty contest
> >
> > on 11/22/02 8:55 PM, Kraig Grady wrote:
> >
> >> The most backward thing if not out right ignorance was having
> >> it there in
> >> the first place. What the hell is a beauty pagent if not
explotation.
> >> Imagine if they put on one of their events in let say Kansas.
> >> It was provocation and you know it, so all of you stop acting
> >> so clueless!
> >> really think bout it
> >
> > This is rather outrageous.
> >
> > First of all, saying beauty pagents are exploitation is
interesting. So
> > either the women in them don't realize they are being exploited
> > and need to
> > be saved or they know they are being exploited and don't mind
> > because they
> > don't love themselves enough. In either case, the woman doesn't
> > know what
> > she is doing apparently and the possibility that she has
> > entered the pageant
> > of her own free will is not considered possible.
>
> ...
>
> Nicely put, Jeff ! I agree 100%. You can even discern an
> undertone of what you say in reports on the incident from the
> BBC and NPR. Also, the rioting in Nigeria isn't really about a
> beauty pageant. That's just the headline and the excuse. It's
> about the northern Islamists seeking to take control of the
> country from the current Christian head of state. True story !:-)

not only that, but the "provocation" was not the beauty pageant at
all, but rather a comment about mohammed by a christian radio
personality. the beauty pageant was not an issue at all before this
comment was made!

On Monday, November 25, 2002, at 03:33 , metatuning@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: Re: It all boils down to a beauty contest
>
>
> Joel Rodrigues wrote:
>
>> On Sunday, November 24, 2002, at 03:22 ,
>> metatuning@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>>
>>> Message: 5
>>> Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 11:48:14 -0800
>>> From: Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>
>>> Subject: Re: Re: It all boils down to a beauty contest
>>>
>>> J and J!
>>> Likewise fail to see that some culture have a certain modesty in
>>> relationship to their woman.
>>
>> etc.
>>
>> Come on Kraig ! One might get the idea that you don't even
>> vaguely comprehend the idea & principle of a free democratic
>> society. We all get to do whatever we want (more or less), and
>> no one gets to shove their views down anyone else's throat no
>> matter if it's religion or morality.
>
> Unfortunately this is exactly what is done and it is called > imperialism and
> colonialism, now called globalization

I understand imperialism & colonialism as the way of pretty much every part of the world until quite recently, just that it's the most recent ones that are remembered and talked about ad nauseaum.

Everyone (almost) has tried their hand at it, Mongols, Chinese, Indians, Turks, Arabs, Japanese, Africans, the Inca, Romans, Phoenicians, etc., and, yes finally, the modern Europeans beginning in the 15th century. Muslims were conquering India long before the British, and long before the Portuguese. The Portuguese helped change that.

'Globalization' as presented by the supposed 'anti-globalization' movement is a myth and a paradox.

I know that it's trendy in some quarters to be 'anti-globalization', but not me. 'Globalization' is *not* something new, nor something bad. 'Globalization' as it has come to be defined now has *always* existed.

I have no problem with capitalism or the free movement of goods, people, and ideas. I know that just as with anything else it's not a perfect thing. I've experienced the 3rd world before and after recent free-market reforms (which is the correct term), and society and people are a lot better off than they were during the few decades of protectionist se-lf-serving government they were forced to live under.

Also, the best society is the most liberal, democratic one possible. That is the only one that allows everyone to go about their business as they please. So in one city for example, you can have a strip club, a mosque, a synagogue, a secular university, an opera house, etc. and everyone understands that it is up to them where they go and what they see and they cannot tell anyone else what to do.

>> The rest of your response displays a remarkable lack of
>> understanding of the way the world works and under what
>> constraints anyone such as the EU or US, etc have to work to
>> influence countries and societies to become free and democratic
>> societies.
>
> The EU and The US have absolutely no interest in democracies.

I disagree. Again, I know it's perhaps not hip to say that. But, I disagree.

> they are
> interested in only capitalism.

I have no problem with capitalism. And the inference from your tone is that it's the 'west' that's all out to exploit the 'east'. Everyone from the USA & the EU to communist China and socialist India is up to their necks in it as well. It's called making a living. Yes, things do go wrong & nothing is perfect.

> Every democracy that even
> became a slighrt problem for the latter was crushed by every method
> available.

> OK joel name a democracy we have helped to come into being.

It's not a black & white issue. It's a complex and subtle thing. Right now the borders of the European Union, arguably the most free & liberal democratic (taken as a whole) group of countries on Earth is on the brink of extending it's borders to include Poland, the Czech Republic, Estonia, Cyprus (they *will* fix the Greek-Turkish silliness over it),, Latvia, Malta, Lithuania, Hungary, Malta, Romania, Slovenia, and eventually Turkey. Given the nature of the Balkans, my estimation is around 25 to 35 years before they come into (or at least are up to the 'standards' of) the EU. Moldova, I'm not sure what the situation is, but possibly within 15 years, Ukraine & Belarus are more unpredictable. The EU has done a *lot*, most of it unreported to bring these countries to a stage where they can be equal to every EU state.

The USA of course has, shall we say, a comparatively more chequered history. But it does play it's own unique role in ways that others cannot.

> Like
> in Afganistan that over threw the king? no the EU and the US bring back
> theis despot to have a few words.

Eh ? I'd like to see your plan for Afghanistan. I can scarcely believe they've pulled off what they have with Karzai and those loony war lords. Long way to go and it's doubtful it can be turned into a secular society any time soon.

> What about Nicaragua.

> Or look at China did
> the EU and the US allow exile to those who escaped tentament > square. What
> about Chile. What about the recent coup in Venezuela. Nope > democracy sounded
> great in 5th grade but i dont have any polyanna notion any more.

> Likewise
> neither the EU or the US has attempte to feed democracy in > Saudi Arabia or
> Kuwait.

Can't be done without blood shed and chaos. Oh, forgot to mention the Islam thing. My family lived in Kuwait. My (late) father was there from 1967 to the days when the psycho from Baghdad invaded. And you don't know anything about Kuwait. It's the *only* democracy in the middle east ! The government there has even been trying to get women the right to fully participate and has been continuously held back in parliament by Islamists. Good grief man, where do you get your information ?

The world is a funny thing. I strongly suspect Saddam Hussain suffers from some sort of psychosis (he's mental). Otherwise he'd make a great ally for the free world. He's a Muslim, but anti-Islamist. Even has a healthy respect for history & culture.

I think Joe P. (Hi Joe !) has at least twice mentioned Turkey saying, 'now "secular Muslim"', and 'supposedly develop a "secular" Muslim society'. It's been a secular republic since about 1923, and I think has had democratically elected secular governments since about 1950. They've even had a woman (Tansu Ciller) serve as prime minister. The history of Turkey is astonishing, although not without it's faults. They've got to loosen up over Kurds and they've got to loosen up overall. Interestingly what makes the overall loosening up difficult is that much of the cause (ironically) of it is the 'fear' the Turkish state and society has of radical/extremist Islamists. There is an overwhelming desire to help Turkey get into the EU. It's going slow, but I think it will happen within the next ten years. All that's need are some more reforms. Capital punishment has already been suspended. Even the USA doesn't meet EU standards. That's not say that the EU is perfect, but the dream is there.

This article tells some of the story :

<http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-lerner110402.asp>

It's not all accurate. For example, 'Arabs and Persians, after all, were largely isolated from the West for centuries. Then, in the last two, Arabs were conquered, colonized, and set free again by a who's-who of European nations.' This is historically inaccurate. Europe (Iberia mostly) was conquered and colonized by Arabs and other Muslims centuries earlier. The music of Iberia, from Flamenco to Fado bears testament to this, and I wouldn't have it any other way. I cannot deny history. The best I can do is look for the good in it, or at least in the results of it. My family and my culture is a direct result of Portuguese adventures in Asia.

Of course there is lot's of Islamist propaganda out there against the Turkish secular state.

> these so called 1st world countries are only interested in other
> leaders that are easily bribed and or manipulated to provide > cheap labor or
> will allow the complete sacking of all their natural resources.

Hah ! I've lived in the 3rd world. Most 3rd world, developing/under-developed states don't need the '1st world' teaching it how to be corrupt or how to exploit it's people and destroy it's natural resources. They've got it down to an art and can manage it all by themselves.

3rd world nations are quite capable of being aggressive greedy hypocrites. The most recent acts of military aggression used to annex territory have been perpetrated by countries like India, Indonesia, Iraq, and China.

And all this is without getting into the mess that is Africa. And no, Africa's current chaos cannot be conveniently blamed on it's former colonial rulers. Right now Islam is creeping it's way around causing lots of trouble there. And all that tribal stuff too.

> Let us look at the free trade agreements where a group of anonomous
> people can decide that certain internal national laws are too > restrictive,
> in which case there decision are stronger than any > democratically determined
> law, nor can the country appeal the decision. That is your new > democracy
> which boils down to, you can pass any law you like as long as > it agrees with
> us. And the 'us' is an unknown supreme governing body.

Again, I disagree. All these institutions and people who work in them are knowable if you choose to learn about them, not faceless autocrats. It's not a perfect system, but it's the best for now, but certainly with room for improvement !

>> The balance between Real-Politik and freedom and humanitarianism
>> as we of the free societies in the democratic world see it, is a
>> very difficult thing to do. Also, not all democracies are really
>> free societies. India for example is worlds away from the
>> freedom that exists in the EU.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Joel
>>
>
> -- -Kraig Grady

Kraig, we've obviously got somewhat different politics. I've not given up on the world & democracy. I also don't buy into left-wing *or* right-wing propaganda. I am not anti-establishment, when the establishment is democratically elected (more or less). Is there room for improvement ? More than a little ! I'm optimistic.

For any history buffs out there, here's a site where you can find many source documents and learn a *lot* more about the richness, and complexity of our collective history. You won't regret the hours that pass exploring the information there :

Internet History Sourcebooks Project
<http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/>

Cheers and may our descendants live in more peacefully interesting times,
Joel Rodrigues

p.s. Excuse any factual errors that may have crept in above, it's mostly off-the-cuff.

Joel Rodrigues wrote:

>
>
> 'Globalization' as presented by the supposed
> 'anti-globalization' movement is a myth and a paradox.
>
> I know that it's trendy in some quarters to be
> 'anti-globalization', but not me.

you say this twice in this e-mail suggesting that this is my motivation. i
could care less

> 'Globalization' is *not*
> something new, nor something bad. 'Globalization' as it has come
> to be defined now has *always* existed.

I see it as a new name for imperialism, how does it differ

>
>
> I have no problem with capitalism or the free movement of goods,
> people, and ideas.

Free for who.

>
>
> Also, the best society is the most liberal, democratic one
> possible. That is the only one that allows everyone to go about
> their business as they please. So in one city for example, you
> can have a strip club, a mosque, a synagogue, a secular
> university, an opera house, etc. and everyone understands that
> it is up to them where they go and what they see and they cannot
> tell anyone else what to do.

I agree on this point but we are further from this today than at anypoint i
can remember in the half century i have been here.
I am glad our Goals are similar "-)

>
>
>
>
> I disagree. Again, I know it's perhaps not hip to say that.

ONce again i have no interest in being hip, i would be on the electronia
list then.

> But,
> I disagree.

I need examples but respect your disagreement

>
>
> > they are
> > interested in only capitalism.
>
> I have no problem with capitalism. And the inference from your
> tone is that it's the 'west' that's all out to exploit the
> 'east'. Everyone from the USA & the EU to communist China and
> socialist India is up to their necks in it as well. It's called
> making a living. Yes, things do go wrong & nothing is perfect.

It has us on the brink of environmental suicide for one if not WW3
(started by two spoiled rich kids as lampoon would say)

>
>
> > Every democracy that even
> > became a slighrt problem for the latter was crushed by every method
> > available.
>
> > OK joel name a democracy we have helped to come into being.
>
> It's not a black & white issue. It's a complex and subtle thing.
> Right now the borders of the European Union, arguably the most
> free & liberal democratic (taken as a whole) group of countries
> on Earth is on the brink of extending it's borders to include
> Poland, the Czech Republic, Estonia, Cyprus (they *will* fix the
> Greek-Turkish silliness over it),, Latvia, Malta, Lithuania,
> Hungary, Malta, Romania, Slovenia, and eventually Turkey. Given
> the nature of the Balkans, my estimation is around 25 to 35
> years before they come into (or at least are up to the
> 'standards' of) the EU. Moldova, I'm not sure what the situation
> is, but possibly within 15 years, Ukraine & Belarus are more
> unpredictable. The EU has done a *lot*, most of it unreported to
> bring these countries to a stage where they can be equal to
> every EU state.

ok eastern europe has promise

>
>
> The USA of course has, shall we say, a comparatively more
> chequered history. But it does play it's own unique role in ways
> that others cannot.

HOW

>
>
> > Like
> > in Afganistan that over threw the king? no the EU and the US bring back
> > theis despot to have a few words.
>
> Eh ? I'd like to see your plan for Afghanistan. I can scarcely
> believe they've pulled off what they have with Karzai and those
> loony war lords. Long way to go and it's doubtful it can be
> turned into a secular society any time soon.

WHat do you mean you have a oil employee as head of the govt. religion will
be uesed only as decor

>
>
> > What about Nicaragua.
>
> > Or look at China did
> > the EU and the US allow exile to those who escaped tentament
> > square. What
> > about Chile. What about the recent coup in Venezuela. Nope
> > democracy sounded
> > great in 5th grade but i dont have any polyanna notion any more.
>
> > Likewise
> > neither the EU or the US has attempte to feed democracy in
> > Saudi Arabia or
> > Kuwait.
>
> Can't be done without blood shed and chaos. Oh, forgot to
> mention the Islam thing. My family lived in Kuwait. My (late)
> father was there from 1967 to the days when the psycho from
> Baghdad invaded. And you don't know anything about Kuwait. It's
> the *only* democracy in the middle east !

I have not heard of an election, isn't always the same family.
do they have a free press

> The government there
> has even been trying to get women the right to fully participate
> and has been continuously held back in parliament by Islamists.
> Good grief man, where do you get your information ?

isn't parlament apart of the govt

>
>
> The world is a funny thing. I strongly suspect Saddam Hussain
> suffers from some sort of psychosis (he's mental). Otherwise
> he'd make a great ally for the free world.

thats how he got to where he is with US backing. He was told he could attack
Kuwait and then we "changed " our mind. Either that or we set him up.

> He's a Muslim, but
> anti-Islamist. Even has a healthy respect for history & culture.
>
> I think Joe P. (Hi Joe !) has at least twice mentioned Turkey
> saying, 'now "secular Muslim"', and 'supposedly develop a
> "secular" Muslim society'. It's been a secular republic since
> about 1923, and I think has had democratically elected secular
> governments since about 1950. They've even had a woman (Tansu
> Ciller) serve as prime minister. The history of Turkey is
> astonishing, although not without it's faults. They've got to
> loosen up over Kurds and they've got to loosen up overall.

this is a great underestimation of the slaughter that continues. It is
outright ethnic clensing.
"lossen up" is nice news speak. I really could take thois one further but i
won't

>
> Interestingly what makes the overall loosening up difficult is
> that much of the cause (ironically) of it is the 'fear' the
> Turkish state and society has of radical/extremist Islamists.
> There is an overwhelming desire to help Turkey get into the EU.
> It's going slow, but I think it will happen within the next ten
> years. All that's need are some more reforms. Capital punishment
> has already been suspended. Even the USA doesn't meet EU
> standards. That's not say that the EU is perfect, but the dream
> is there.

They have this dream because they can use the US as its strong arm when they
want to. The people who run things are in both locales and the notion of
"countries" is only geographically convienent. The Multinationals run both
shows, like good cop, bad cop.

>
>
>
> > will allow the complete sacking of all their natural resources.
>
> Hah ! I've lived in the 3rd world. Most 3rd world,
> developing/under-developed states don't need the '1st world'
> teaching it how to be corrupt or how to exploit it's people and
> destroy it's natural resources. They've got it down to an art
> and can manage it all by themselves.

I will agree with this

>
>
> 3rd world nations are quite capable of being aggressive greedy
> hypocrites. The most recent acts of military aggression used to
> annex territory have been perpetrated by countries like India,
> Indonesia, Iraq, and China.

>
> And all this is without getting into the mess that is Africa.
> And no, Africa's current chaos cannot be conveniently blamed on
> it's former colonial rulers.

The country bounderies were drawn through tribal lands in order to break
them up. They learn this from the US where for instance you have the Hopi
Nation in 4 states!

> Right now Islam is creeping it's
> way around causing lots of trouble there. And all that tribal
> stuff too.
>
> > Let us look at the free trade agreements where a group of anonomous
> > people can decide that certain internal national laws are too
> > restrictive,
> > in which case there decision are stronger than any
> > democratically determined
> > law, nor can the country appeal the decision. That is your new
> > democracy
> > which boils down to, you can pass any law you like as long as
> > it agrees with
> > us. And the 'us' is an unknown supreme governing body.
>
> Again, I disagree. All these institutions and people who work in
> them are knowable if you choose to learn about them, not
> faceless autocrats.

the people who make the decisions are anonomous otherwise tewll me there
names

> It's not a perfect system, but it's the best
> for now, but certainly with room for improvement !
>
> >> The balance between Real-Politik and freedom and humanitarianism
> >> as we of the free societies in the democratic world see it, is a
> >> very difficult thing to do. Also, not all democracies are really
> >> free societies.

And they are becoming less so and not more so

> India for example is worlds away from the
> >> freedom that exists in the EU.

We need to set up an embassy there. Do you think we could qualify as
"cultural" exiles

>
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Joel
> >>
> >
> > -- -Kraig Grady
>
> Kraig, we've obviously got somewhat different politics. I've not
> given up on the world & democracy. I also don't buy into
> left-wing *or* right-wing propaganda. I am not
> anti-establishment, when the establishment is democratically
> elected (more or less). Is there room for improvement ? More
> than a little ! I'm optimistic.

I am glad you are optimistic, but if we changed places or veiwpoints might
also ;-)

>
>
>
> Cheers and may our descendants live in more peacefully
> interesting times,

AMEN!

>
> Joel Rodrigues
>
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM 8-9PM PST

hi Joel,

> From: "Joel Rodrigues" <jdrodrigues@...>
> To: <metatuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 2:55 AM
> Subject: [metatuning] Re: It all boils down to a beauty contest
>
>
> On Monday, November 25, 2002, at 03:33 ,
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>
> And all this is without getting into the mess that is Africa.
> And no, Africa's current chaos cannot be conveniently blamed on
> it's former colonial rulers. Right now Islam is creeping it's
> way around causing lots of trouble there. And all that tribal
> stuff too.

are you serious? yes, i can agree with you that conflict
between Muslims and Christians is becoming more and more of
a problem in Africa.

but most of the civil wars there were caused precisely by
the disregard of tribal boundaries with which the European
colonial powers carved up the continent to suit their own
purposes.

the current boundaries of nearly every country in Africa
are the same as those drawn by the Europeans when they set
up their colonies there in the late-1800s, and they have
practically nothing to do with linguistic or cultural
affiliations among the people who have been living there
for millennia.

to pick only one example among thousands: the fact that
the Lunda people are split between the three countries
of Angola, Democratic Republic of the Congo, and Zambia
-- whose official languages are respectively Portuguese,
French and English (while of course the Lunda themselves
prefer to speak Lunda) -- doesn't help the Lunda at all to
maintain a cohesive cultural presence.

add to this the facts that Angola now lies destitute
after a long and bloody civil war, DRC is currently
embroiled in the most extensive and hopeless war on the
planet, and Zambia is suffering from famine ... and tell
me where the Lunda should put their allegiance.

the reason why it's so convenient to blame the current
chaos in Africa on its former colonial rulers, is because
that's exactly where most of the blame should be put.

and don't forget about the penchant for American companies
to take what they can get out of the ground in Africa,
bring it to market, make a fortune, and put zero of the
dollars back into Africa.

-monz