rock progressions

Here I am between a rock and a hard place:

I always wondered why it was that a common rock progression was such
like: C-Bb-F-G...

Until I started working with the guitar, and then it seemed that the
ease of *parallel* chord progressions would naturally lead to such a
development.

However, Paul E. has a different theory. Take it away, Paul!

JP

--- In metatuning@y..., "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> Here I am between a rock and a hard place:
>
> I always wondered why it was that a common rock progression was
such
> like: C-Bb-F-G...
>
> Until I started working with the guitar, and then it seemed that
the
> ease of *parallel* chord progressions would naturally lead to such
a
> development.
>
> However, Paul E. has a different theory. Take it away, Paul!
>
> JP

hi joseph . . .

i think that this was a *musical* evolution, not specific to the
guitar. the beatles, primarily, enriched the pop music all the white
folks were listening to by incorporating elements from british/celtic
folk music and black american blues -- and while both styles leaned
heavily on the guitar, neither was typically characterized by
such "banal" voice leading as moving a single chord form around the
guitar would produce.

by 1966, even tommy james and the shondells were using such
progressions as a result of the beatles' influence.

may i suggest the book(s?) "The Beatles As Musicians" by Walter
Everett . . . this goes into great detail on all this stuff, even
going so far as to attempt schenkerian analyses of certain songs and
medleys . . .

--- In metatuning@y..., "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>

/metatuning/topicId_3380.html#3381

wrote:
> --- In metatuning@y..., "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> > Here I am between a rock and a hard place:
> >
> > I always wondered why it was that a common rock progression was
> such
> > like: C-Bb-F-G...
> >
> > Until I started working with the guitar, and then it seemed that
> the
> > ease of *parallel* chord progressions would naturally lead to
such
> a
> > development.
> >
> > However, Paul E. has a different theory. Take it away, Paul!
> >
> > JP
>
> hi joseph . . .
>
> i think that this was a *musical* evolution, not specific to the
> guitar. the beatles, primarily, enriched the pop music all the
white
> folks were listening to by incorporating elements from
british/celtic
> folk music and black american blues -- and while both styles leaned
> heavily on the guitar, neither was typically characterized by
> such "banal" voice leading as moving a single chord form around the
> guitar would produce.
>
> by 1966, even tommy james and the shondells were using such
> progressions as a result of the beatles' influence.
>
> may i suggest the book(s?) "The Beatles As Musicians" by Walter
> Everett . . . this goes into great detail on all this stuff, even
> going so far as to attempt schenkerian analyses of certain songs
and
> medleys . . .

***I'm sure it's more complex than this, but it *still* seems quite
natural to move chords around on the guitar... C-Bb, etc., *much*
moreso than on the piano, where a parallel progression from C-Bb
would not be the most *immediate* thought.... [i.e. something on the
diatonic "white keys" would be more "natural" (literally :) to the
piano.... I think]

Joseph

--- In metatuning@y..., "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:

> ***I'm sure it's more complex than this, but it *still* seems quite
> natural to move chords around on the guitar... C-Bb, etc., *much*
> moreso than on the piano, where a parallel progression from C-Bb
> would not be the most *immediate* thought.... [i.e. something on
the
> diatonic "white keys" would be more "natural" (literally :) to the
> piano.... I think]
>
> Joseph

hey joseph, C isn't the only key you can play in (and isn't even that
common in rock music). . . in the key of G, the bVII chord is still
on the white keys of the piano . . . meanwhile, back on the guitar,
even the C chord is most often played with the *open* G and e
strings . . . so the parallel movement wouldn't work . . .

--- In metatuning@y..., "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>

/metatuning/topicId_3380.html#3383

wrote:
> --- In metatuning@y..., "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
>
> > ***I'm sure it's more complex than this, but it *still* seems
quite
> > natural to move chords around on the guitar... C-Bb, etc., *much*
> > moreso than on the piano, where a parallel progression from C-Bb
> > would not be the most *immediate* thought.... [i.e. something on
> the
> > diatonic "white keys" would be more "natural" (literally :) to
the
> > piano.... I think]
> >
> > Joseph
>
> hey joseph, C isn't the only key you can play in (and isn't even
that
> common in rock music). . . in the key of G, the bVII chord is still
> on the white keys of the piano . . . meanwhile, back on the guitar,
> even the C chord is most often played with the *open* G and e
> strings . . . so the parallel movement wouldn't work . . .

***Yes, true, but you still have two *basic* major chord forms for
bar chords, and they go up and down the fretboard by semitones, not
differentiating anything.

On the *piano* there is a *big* difference, particularly for the
beginner, between "white keys" and "black keys" with more accidentals.

It just seems that the guitar is more "democratic" in this respect...
Gb major is no harder to play than F major...

Well, it's just a little observation I've been experiencing but, as I
said, the evolution of music is, certainly, more complex than this,
but it is one vector on the matrix. (See, got some math in, too! :)

Joseph

I think you can find such progression in Alan lomax books of american folk
music if not also music from the Civil War.

wallyesterpaulrus wrote:

> --- In metatuning@y..., "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> > Here I am between a rock and a hard place:
> >
> > I always wondered why it was that a common rock progression was
> such
> > like: C-Bb-F-G...
> >
> > Until I started working with the guitar, and then it seemed that
> the
> > ease of *parallel* chord progressions would naturally lead to such
> a
> > development.
> >
> > However, Paul E. has a different theory. Take it away, Paul!
> >
> > JP
>
> hi joseph . . .
>
> i think that this was a *musical* evolution, not specific to the
> guitar. the beatles, primarily, enriched the pop music all the white
> folks were listening to by incorporating elements from british/celtic
> folk music and black american blues -- and while both styles leaned
> heavily on the guitar, neither was typically characterized by
> such "banal" voice leading as moving a single chord form around the
> guitar would produce.
>
> by 1966, even tommy james and the shondells were using such
> progressions as a result of the beatles' influence.
>
> may i suggest the book(s?) "The Beatles As Musicians" by Walter
> Everett . . . this goes into great detail on all this stuff, even
> going so far as to attempt schenkerian analyses of certain songs and
> medleys . . .
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
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>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
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>
>
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-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM 8-9PM PST

--- In metatuning@y..., Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:

/metatuning/topicId_3380.html#3385

> I think you can find such progression in Alan lomax books of
american folk
> music if not also music from the Civil War.
>

***This is actually quite a good idea... and Elie Siegmeister also
edited a great book of American folk music songs...

JP

The first thing that came into my mind was "Black is the color of my true
loves hair" but the harmonies alternate between major and mino on the tonic
but the out line is in there. Also i believe it is widely used in Irish
miusic, especially reels and jig.

Joseph Pehrson wrote:

> --- In metatuning@y..., Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
>
> /metatuning/topicId_3380.html#3385
>
> > I think you can find such progression in Alan lomax books of
> american folk
> > music if not also music from the Civil War.
> >
>
> ***This is actually quite a good idea... and Elie Siegmeister also
> edited a great book of American folk music songs...
>
> JP
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM 8-9PM PST

--- In metatuning@y..., Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:

/metatuning/topicId_3380.html#3387

> The first thing that came into my mind was "Black is the color of
my true
> loves hair" but the harmonies alternate between major and mino on
the tonic
> but the out line is in there. Also i believe it is widely used in
Irish
> miusic, especially reels and jig.
>
>

****Yes, and, of course Luciano Berio set that and several other
beautiful ones in his *Folk Songs...*

I don't know whether it's to *your* taste, Kraig, but I've always
liked that piece...

Joe

Joseph!
Folk music is my thing.
My first wife is still a folk singer back east and latter on was really in
love with another that never made it that far:-)

We tend to over look the obvious sometimes like Dylan who use 1 4 5 but
often 4 or 5 is the tonic!
gates of Eden i think is one that does this

Joseph Pehrson wrote:

> I don't know whether it's to *your* taste, Kraig, but I've always
> liked that piece...
>
> Joe
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM 8-9PM PST

> From: "Kraig Grady" <kraiggrady@...>
> To: <metatuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 9:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [metatuning] Re: rock progressions
>
>
> We tend to over look the obvious sometimes like Dylan who use 1 4 5
but
> often 4 or 5 is the tonic!
> gates of Eden i think is one that does this

yup -- that's the mixolydian flavor i was talking about!

the chords *seem* like V - IV - I - V, but:

- what sounds like V is really the I,
- what sounds like IV is really the bVII,
- what sounds like I is really the IV

because the underlying scale is
I - II - III - IV - V - VI - bVII.

-monz

One thing I like in rock/blues/etc. is the way IV is often used as a
kind of dominant, sometimes with V becoming the "pre-dominant"; and a
progression like I-V-IV-I is totally fine. It's interesting that I can
sit there and change my mindset so that if I'm in "classical" mode,
I-V-IV--I is kind of weak in most circumstances, but then I switch to
rock mode, and it's a perfectly natural progression.

cb

>
> i think that this was a *musical* evolution, not specific to the
> guitar. the beatles, primarily, enriched the pop music all the
white
> folks were listening to by incorporating elements from
british/celtic
> folk music and black american blues -- and while both styles leaned
> heavily on the guitar, neither was typically characterized by
> such "banal" voice leading as moving a single chord form around the
> guitar would produce.
>

i have a tape, somewhere, of a synth guitarist playing,
first a 'beatles' song/chords straight as a guitar, and
then again as a midi-organ. in the later case, it all
sounds like bach. i am fairly certain that john lennon
had training in classical keyboard, and so it's just
the 'old dead white male' syndrome....

hi novosonic,

> From: "novosonic" <novosonic@...>
> To: <metatuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 1:35 PM
> Subject: [metatuning] Re: rock progressions
>
>
> i have a tape, somewhere, of a synth guitarist playing,
> first a 'beatles' song/chords straight as a guitar, and
> then again as a midi-organ. in the later case, it all
> sounds like bach. i am fairly certain that john lennon
> had training in classical keyboard, and so it's just
> the 'old dead white male' syndrome....

wrong.

Lennon played guitar, and never really learned
any other instrument well. he was the "hard rock"
guy in the Beatles, McCartney was the tin-pan-alley
tunesmith, Harrison was the mystic (and the best
musician of the three) ... and Ringo played drums.

it's true that George Martin played a large role
as the "5th Beatle", and it's thanks to him that
there's so much classical/hollywood-sounding stuff
in Beatles tunes, altho McCartney was definitely
also leaning in that direction by the time the
group broke up.

but Lennon really never knew a lot about "standard"
music-theory or technique. he just loved Elvis Presley
and wanted to be just like him, at least in the beginning.

-monz

the band America (which George Martin also Produced) proves that he really
wasn't all many crack him up to be!

monz wrote:

>
>
> it's true that George Martin played a large role
> as the "5th Beatle", and it's thanks to him that
> there's so much classical/hollywood-sounding stuff
> in Beatles tunes, altho McCartney was definitely
> also leaning in that direction by the time the
> group broke up.
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM 8-9PM PST

--- In metatuning@y..., Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
> The first thing that came into my mind was "Black is the color of
my true
> loves hair" but the harmonies alternate between major and mino on
the tonic
> but the out line is in there. Also i believe it is widely used in
Irish
> miusic, especially reels and jig.

that's why i brought it up!

--- In metatuning@y..., "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
>
> > From: "Kraig Grady" <kraiggrady@a...>
> > To: <metatuning@y...>
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 9:13 PM
> > Subject: Re: [metatuning] Re: rock progressions
> >
> >
> > We tend to over look the obvious sometimes like Dylan who use
1 4 5
> but
> > often 4 or 5 is the tonic!
> > gates of Eden i think is one that does this
>
>
>
> yup -- that's the mixolydian flavor i was talking about!
>
> the chords *seem* like V - IV - I - V, but:
>
> - what sounds like V is really the I,
> - what sounds like IV is really the bVII,
> - what sounds like I is really the IV
>
> because the underlying scale is
> I - II - III - IV - V - VI - bVII.
>
>
>
>
>
> -monz

i find that i can often flip my mind back and forth between different
ways of hearing songs like this. it's very much like that staircase
that flips inside-out if you stare at it long enough (you know the
one i mean?)

hey paul,

> From: "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@...>
> To: <metatuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 10:51 PM
> Subject: [metatuning] Re: rock progressions
>
>
> --- In metatuning@y..., "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > yup -- that's the mixolydian flavor i was talking about!
> >
> > the chords *seem* like V - IV - I - V, but:
> >
> > - what sounds like V is really the I,
> > - what sounds like IV is really the bVII,
> > - what sounds like I is really the IV
> >
> > because the underlying scale is
> > I - II - III - IV - V - VI - bVII.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -monz
>
> i find that i can often flip my mind back and forth between different
> ways of hearing songs like this. it's very much like that staircase
> that flips inside-out if you stare at it long enough (you know the
> one i mean?)

i think you're talking about the famous etching by Escher?
http://www.worldofescher.com/gallery/AscendingDescendingLg.html

actually, this kind of flip-flopping of chord-function / scale
to my mind is more like this other Escher piece:
http://www.worldofescher.com/gallery/DayAndNightLg.html

anyway, we're both in agreement on this mental process.

-monz

--- In metatuning@y..., "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
>
> hey paul,
>
>
> > From: "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>
> > To: <metatuning@y...>
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 10:51 PM
> > Subject: [metatuning] Re: rock progressions
> >
> >
> > --- In metatuning@y..., "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > yup -- that's the mixolydian flavor i was talking about!
> > >
> > > the chords *seem* like V - IV - I - V, but:
> > >
> > > - what sounds like V is really the I,
> > > - what sounds like IV is really the bVII,
> > > - what sounds like I is really the IV
> > >
> > > because the underlying scale is
> > > I - II - III - IV - V - VI - bVII.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -monz
> >
> > i find that i can often flip my mind back and forth between
different
> > ways of hearing songs like this. it's very much like that
staircase
> > that flips inside-out if you stare at it long enough (you know
the
> > one i mean?)
>
>
> i think you're talking about the famous etching by Escher?
> http://www.worldofescher.com/gallery/AscendingDescendingLg.html

no, not that one at all -- instead, it's a very simple "optical
illusion":

http://www.joke4today.com/illusions11.htm