practicing with a metronome

anyone have any thoughts on this?

if you're not familiar with jeff berlin's views, read this:

http://www.innerviews.org/inner/berlin.html

my sister is a world-class classical pianist, graduating juilliard
pre-college, and entering new england conservatory in the fall. she
practices with a metronome, *a lot*. would jeff presume to tell her
that that's a mistake in her education???

any comments appreciated . . .

a metronome is the simplest form of drum machine. some music is made to be
played with regular rhythm, as if with a percussionist, even if there isn't
one. this kind of music can easily be practiced with a metronome in lieu of
an actual drummer. other music is played with a more flexible rhythm, but
even here it may be important to understand what >regular< rhythm is being
flexed, so again a metronome can be useful. In classical music, it is very
useful for training accuracy and evenness of execution, which is highly
valued in this style.

Dante

> -----Original Message-----
> From: paulerlich [mailto:paul@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 7:44 PM
> To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [metatuning] practicing with a metronome
>
>
> anyone have any thoughts on this?
>
> if you're not familiar with jeff berlin's views, read this:
>
> http://www.innerviews.org/inner/berlin.html
>
> my sister is a world-class classical pianist, graduating juilliard
> pre-college, and entering new england conservatory in the fall. she
> practices with a metronome, *a lot*. would jeff presume to tell her
> that that's a mistake in her education???
>
> any comments appreciated . . .
>
>

--- In metatuning@y..., "Dante Rosati" <dante.interport@r...> wrote:
> a metronome is the simplest form of drum machine. some music is
made to be
> played with regular rhythm, as if with a percussionist, even if
there isn't
> one. this kind of music can easily be practiced with a metronome in
lieu of
> an actual drummer. other music is played with a more flexible
rhythm, but
> even here it may be important to understand what >regular< rhythm
is being
> flexed, so again a metronome can be useful. In classical music, it
is very
> useful for training accuracy and evenness of execution, which is
highly
> valued in this style.
>
> Dante

well that all sounds right to me, especially the flex part. what
puzzled me is that jeff berlin seems to emphasize the teaching
methods and philosophies associated with western classical music
above all other forms of musical education. hence his rejection of
the metronome is all the more puzzling to me . . .

Paul,

I'd just like to amplify something Dante touched on (all of what he said was good):

--- In metatuning@y..., "Dante Rosati" <dante.interport@r...> wrote:
> other music is played with a more flexible rhythm, but
> even here it may be important to understand what >regular< rhythm
> is being flexed, so again a metronome can be useful. In classical
> music, it is very useful for training accuracy and evenness of
> execution, which is highly valued in this style.

Absolutely! It is very frustrating to work with musicians that don't have 'good time', regardless of the genre. I don't allow for sloppy execution in rhythm anymore than in accuracy of pitch or good production of tone. And specifically to Dante's first point: it is highly important for someone to *know* that they have good time, even when they might have an expressive solo - for instance, a good oboe player will be able to, over the course of a long melody, ebb and flow with the time but always come back to the rest of the accompaniement, fully aware of the time flow as they move around in it. Weaker musicians just rush or drag and you have no idea where they will end up.

Much of this perspective comes, of course, from sitting in a symphonic orchestra for 3+ decades, and being a percussionist I am quite sensitive to time flow. I recently had one of the newer players execute the snare drum part on "Bolero", which is nothing more than a two measure drum machine pattern. He, like all players on this part, was astonished at the constant pulling and pushing of the time, and the difference between players: those that could be expressive and still come back to the ongoing river of time, and those that were either blindly or self-indulgintly in their own little 'time worlds', causing everyone else no end of teeth-gnashing, trying to make everything mesh.

Time: one can't be without it, and it needn't be robotic, and you can't be sure unless you've worked - a lot - with a metronome.

Cheers,
Jon

P.S. I actually try to encourage serious players of *any* instrument to invest in a low end drum machine, because it is so much more versatile than a metronome. But a metro is a must...

hi Paul, Dante, and Jon,

> From: "paulerlich" <paul@...>
> To: <metatuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 5:45 PM
> Subject: [metatuning] Re: practicing with a metronome
>

> --- In metatuning@y..., "Dante Rosati" <dante.interport@r...> wrote:
> > a metronome is the simplest form of drum machine. some music
> > is made to be played with regular rhythm, as if with a
> > percussionist, even if there isn't one. this kind of music
> > can easily be practiced with a metronome in lieu of an
> > actual drummer. other music is played with a more flexible
> > rhythm, but even here it may be important to understand what
> > >regular< rhythm is being flexed, so again a metronome can
> > be useful. In classical music, it is very useful for
> > training accuracy and evenness of execution, which is
> > highly valued in this style.
> >
> > Dante
>
> well that all sounds right to me, especially the flex part.
> what puzzled me is that jeff berlin seems to emphasize the
> teaching methods and philosophies associated with western
> classical music above all other forms of musical education.
> hence his rejection of the metronome is all the more puzzling
> to me . . .

i also totally agree with what Dante wrote, and also with
what Jon wrote in his follow-up to what i quoted.

the most continously frustrating thing i've had to deal with
in my experience as a teacher is that students have an
extremely hard time learning how to play along with a
metronome, and then therefore refuse to use it.

my disciplinary style tends to cause me to go easy on them
about this, but for most of them (i.e., excepting the ones
who develop a good "internal metronome" early on) i still
have to work hard even in counting aloud myself while they
play, in order to fix their sense of the rhythm properly.

most of you who are familiar with my MIDI renditions of
the masterworks know that i use a lot of _rubato_ and an
extremely fluid sense of tempo in my interpretations. so
then this is the next step: after the student has finally
learned to "play like a machine" to either his/her internal
or external metronome, then he/she needs to learn how to
"flex" that rigid sense of tempo (as Dante put it).

the best way i've found to teach this is to give them a
good grounding in music-theory (harmony, counterpoint, form),
so that they understand more fully exactly what the composer
is doing.

(in the case of Beethoven in particular, who is very popular
with many of my students, he was always composing "musical
practical jokes": evaded cadences, sudden enharmonic-based
surprise modulations, etc. understanding what a listener
of Beethoven's time *expected* to happen next makes it much
more clear what Beethoven actually did when you know that
that expectation gets abruptly side-tracked.)

in case anyone didn't read what Jeff Berlin actually said
about the metronome, here's the quote:

"don't use a metronome to learn good time because it's not
going to give it to you."

like paul, i'm also very puzzled as to why he would say that.
it's not clear to me at all, unless he simply meant to refer
to the tempo "flexing" we're talking about and didn't express
himself well.

-monz

Hmm, good time... a watch keeps good time but it doesn't *play* good
time! Where I'm coming from, if some is said to be metronomic it's
definitely a dis... maybe that's all he meant?

take care,

--Dan Stearns

----- Original Message -----
From: "monz" <monz@...>
To: <metatuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 6:56 PM
Subject: Re: [metatuning] Re: practicing with a metronome

>
> hi Paul, Dante, and Jon,
>
>
> > From: "paulerlich" <paul@...>
> > To: <metatuning@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 5:45 PM
> > Subject: [metatuning] Re: practicing with a metronome
> >
>
> > --- In metatuning@y..., "Dante Rosati" <dante.interport@r...>
wrote:
> > > a metronome is the simplest form of drum machine. some music
> > > is made to be played with regular rhythm, as if with a
> > > percussionist, even if there isn't one. this kind of music
> > > can easily be practiced with a metronome in lieu of an
> > > actual drummer. other music is played with a more flexible
> > > rhythm, but even here it may be important to understand what
> > > >regular< rhythm is being flexed, so again a metronome can
> > > be useful. In classical music, it is very useful for
> > > training accuracy and evenness of execution, which is
> > > highly valued in this style.
> > >
> > > Dante
> >
> > well that all sounds right to me, especially the flex part.
> > what puzzled me is that jeff berlin seems to emphasize the
> > teaching methods and philosophies associated with western
> > classical music above all other forms of musical education.
> > hence his rejection of the metronome is all the more puzzling
> > to me . . .
>
>
> i also totally agree with what Dante wrote, and also with
> what Jon wrote in his follow-up to what i quoted.
>
> the most continously frustrating thing i've had to deal with
> in my experience as a teacher is that students have an
> extremely hard time learning how to play along with a
> metronome, and then therefore refuse to use it.
>
> my disciplinary style tends to cause me to go easy on them
> about this, but for most of them (i.e., excepting the ones
> who develop a good "internal metronome" early on) i still
> have to work hard even in counting aloud myself while they
> play, in order to fix their sense of the rhythm properly.
>
> most of you who are familiar with my MIDI renditions of
> the masterworks know that i use a lot of _rubato_ and an
> extremely fluid sense of tempo in my interpretations. so
> then this is the next step: after the student has finally
> learned to "play like a machine" to either his/her internal
> or external metronome, then he/she needs to learn how to
> "flex" that rigid sense of tempo (as Dante put it).
>
> the best way i've found to teach this is to give them a
> good grounding in music-theory (harmony, counterpoint, form),
> so that they understand more fully exactly what the composer
> is doing.
>
> (in the case of Beethoven in particular, who is very popular
> with many of my students, he was always composing "musical
> practical jokes": evaded cadences, sudden enharmonic-based
> surprise modulations, etc. understanding what a listener
> of Beethoven's time *expected* to happen next makes it much
> more clear what Beethoven actually did when you know that
> that expectation gets abruptly side-tracked.)
>
>
> in case anyone didn't read what Jeff Berlin actually said
> about the metronome, here's the quote:
>
> "don't use a metronome to learn good time because it's not
> going to give it to you."
>
> like paul, i'm also very puzzled as to why he would say that.
> it's not clear to me at all, unless he simply meant to refer
> to the tempo "flexing" we're talking about and didn't express
> himself well.
>
>
> -monz
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
Sponsor ---------------------~-->
> Buy Stock for $4
> and no minimums.
> FREE Money 2002.
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/RrLolB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
-~->
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

they way I figure it, if you're "musical" (which includes an understanding
of how the time substance can be manipulated), then practicing with a
metronome will not hurt you. If you suck, well then, its not gonna make you
suck any worse really, and might acutually help you play evenly enough to
simulate a musical performance. Someone who at first plays with no rhythm at
all will sound much better if they can play "metronomically". How many pop
songs are recorded with a click track I wonder? (not to mention dance and
techno that is by definition metronomic)

Monz mentioned students who have a hard time synching with the metronome,
and this is certainly a common problem with those who really should try a
different hobby. The ability to sync your internal beat with an external
source is necessary to play with other musicians as well, and if you cant
sync with a metronome or drum-machine, you wont be able to sync with a band
either. A metronome can be a good preparation for people to get used to this
before they waste other people's time in a music-making situation. All in
all, I consider it a pretty handy little box that can give you lots of
benefits despite its simplicity.

On the classical side, playing a piece with a metronome will show you all
kinds of rubato that you are doing that you may not have even been aware of.
If its "rubato" caused by slowing down in a hard part or rushing, then you
might want to fix it, but its also interesting to see all the purely musical
tempo changes that are done instinctively and unconsciously.

I have a pianist friend who was a child prodigy, went to Curtis while in
pigtails, can play anything with complete voicings after hearing it once,
etc. For her, practicing just means putting on the metronome at about 10%
under the performance tempo and relaxedly playing through the piece. Thats
all she does. Needless to say, in the performance she does not play
"metronomcially" at all.

Dante

> -----Original Message-----
> From: D.Stearns [mailto:STEARNS@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 1:17 AM
> To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [metatuning] Re: practicing with a metronome
>
>
> Hmm, good time... a watch keeps good time but it doesn't *play* good
> time! Where I'm coming from, if some is said to be metronomic it's
> definitely a dis... maybe that's all he meant?
>
>
> take care,
>
> --Dan Stearns
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "monz" <monz@...>
> To: <metatuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 6:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [metatuning] Re: practicing with a metronome
>
>
> >
> > hi Paul, Dante, and Jon,
> >
> >
> > > From: "paulerlich" <paul@...>
> > > To: <metatuning@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 5:45 PM
> > > Subject: [metatuning] Re: practicing with a metronome
> > >
> >
> > > --- In metatuning@y..., "Dante Rosati" <dante.interport@r...>
> wrote:
> > > > a metronome is the simplest form of drum machine. some music
> > > > is made to be played with regular rhythm, as if with a
> > > > percussionist, even if there isn't one. this kind of music
> > > > can easily be practiced with a metronome in lieu of an
> > > > actual drummer. other music is played with a more flexible
> > > > rhythm, but even here it may be important to understand what
> > > > >regular< rhythm is being flexed, so again a metronome can
> > > > be useful. In classical music, it is very useful for
> > > > training accuracy and evenness of execution, which is
> > > > highly valued in this style.
> > > >
> > > > Dante
> > >
> > > well that all sounds right to me, especially the flex part.
> > > what puzzled me is that jeff berlin seems to emphasize the
> > > teaching methods and philosophies associated with western
> > > classical music above all other forms of musical education.
> > > hence his rejection of the metronome is all the more puzzling
> > > to me . . .
> >
> >
> > i also totally agree with what Dante wrote, and also with
> > what Jon wrote in his follow-up to what i quoted.
> >
> > the most continously frustrating thing i've had to deal with
> > in my experience as a teacher is that students have an
> > extremely hard time learning how to play along with a
> > metronome, and then therefore refuse to use it.
> >
> > my disciplinary style tends to cause me to go easy on them
> > about this, but for most of them (i.e., excepting the ones
> > who develop a good "internal metronome" early on) i still
> > have to work hard even in counting aloud myself while they
> > play, in order to fix their sense of the rhythm properly.
> >
> > most of you who are familiar with my MIDI renditions of
> > the masterworks know that i use a lot of _rubato_ and an
> > extremely fluid sense of tempo in my interpretations. so
> > then this is the next step: after the student has finally
> > learned to "play like a machine" to either his/her internal
> > or external metronome, then he/she needs to learn how to
> > "flex" that rigid sense of tempo (as Dante put it).
> >
> > the best way i've found to teach this is to give them a
> > good grounding in music-theory (harmony, counterpoint, form),
> > so that they understand more fully exactly what the composer
> > is doing.
> >
> > (in the case of Beethoven in particular, who is very popular
> > with many of my students, he was always composing "musical
> > practical jokes": evaded cadences, sudden enharmonic-based
> > surprise modulations, etc. understanding what a listener
> > of Beethoven's time *expected* to happen next makes it much
> > more clear what Beethoven actually did when you know that
> > that expectation gets abruptly side-tracked.)
> >
> >
> > in case anyone didn't read what Jeff Berlin actually said
> > about the metronome, here's the quote:
> >
> > "don't use a metronome to learn good time because it's not
> > going to give it to you."
> >
> > like paul, i'm also very puzzled as to why he would say that.
> > it's not clear to me at all, unless he simply meant to refer
> > to the tempo "flexing" we're talking about and didn't express
> > himself well.
> >
> >
> > -monz
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
> Sponsor ---------------------~-->
> > Buy Stock for $4
> > and no minimums.
> > FREE Money 2002.
> > http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/RrLolB/TM
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> -~->
> >
> > Meta Tuning meta-info:
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
> >
> > To post to the list, send to
> > metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > You don't have to be a member to post.
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

The really hard trick is playing with the metronome on the upbeat!
that's when you really have your beat together ( still practicing!)
-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

Hi Dante,

I agree with a lot of what you say and playing with a metronome helped
me. But, I still think there's a big difference between keeping good
time and playing good time, and I'd bet that's what Berlin was
referring to--though it might teach you to keep tighten up your time,
a metronome is not going to teach you to play good time (a base level
of musicality not withstanding), and extrapolating that further, I
don't think it's difficult to see were it can train you to be overly
metronomic and mechanical sounding.

BTW, seeing as how the Maneris are in the news again, Joe and Mat
(along with extended Maneri family member Randy Peterson) have a
must-be-heard-to-be-believed concept of time. Very relaxed and poised
and always pregnant, amazing.

take care,

--Dan Stearns

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dante Rosati" <dante.interport@...>
To: <metatuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 8:45 PM
Subject: RE: [metatuning] Re: practicing with a metronome

> they way I figure it, if you're "musical" (which includes an
understanding
> of how the time substance can be manipulated), then practicing with
a
> metronome will not hurt you. If you suck, well then, its not gonna
make you
> suck any worse really, and might acutually help you play evenly
enough to
> simulate a musical performance. Someone who at first plays with no
rhythm at
> all will sound much better if they can play "metronomically". How
many pop
> songs are recorded with a click track I wonder? (not to mention
dance and
> techno that is by definition metronomic)
>
> Monz mentioned students who have a hard time synching with the
metronome,
> and this is certainly a common problem with those who really should
try a
> different hobby. The ability to sync your internal beat with an
external
> source is necessary to play with other musicians as well, and if you
cant
> sync with a metronome or drum-machine, you wont be able to sync with
a band
> either. A metronome can be a good preparation for people to get used
to this
> before they waste other people's time in a music-making situation.
All in
> all, I consider it a pretty handy little box that can give you lots
of
> benefits despite its simplicity.
>
> On the classical side, playing a piece with a metronome will show
you all
> kinds of rubato that you are doing that you may not have even been
aware of.
> If its "rubato" caused by slowing down in a hard part or rushing,
then you
> might want to fix it, but its also interesting to see all the purely
musical
> tempo changes that are done instinctively and unconsciously.
>
> I have a pianist friend who was a child prodigy, went to Curtis
while in
> pigtails, can play anything with complete voicings after hearing it
once,
> etc. For her, practicing just means putting on the metronome at
about 10%
> under the performance tempo and relaxedly playing through the piece.
Thats
> all she does. Needless to say, in the performance she does not play
> "metronomcially" at all.
>
> Dante
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: D.Stearns [mailto:STEARNS@...]
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 1:17 AM
> > To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [metatuning] Re: practicing with a metronome
> >
> >
> > Hmm, good time... a watch keeps good time but it doesn't *play*
good
> > time! Where I'm coming from, if some is said to be metronomic it's
> > definitely a dis... maybe that's all he meant?
> >
> >
> > take care,
> >
> > --Dan Stearns
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "monz" <monz@...>
> > To: <metatuning@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 6:56 PM
> > Subject: Re: [metatuning] Re: practicing with a metronome
> >
> >
> > >
> > > hi Paul, Dante, and Jon,
> > >
> > >
> > > > From: "paulerlich" <paul@...>
> > > > To: <metatuning@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 5:45 PM
> > > > Subject: [metatuning] Re: practicing with a metronome
> > > >
> > >
> > > > --- In metatuning@y..., "Dante Rosati" <dante.interport@r...>
> > wrote:
> > > > > a metronome is the simplest form of drum machine. some music
> > > > > is made to be played with regular rhythm, as if with a
> > > > > percussionist, even if there isn't one. this kind of music
> > > > > can easily be practiced with a metronome in lieu of an
> > > > > actual drummer. other music is played with a more flexible
> > > > > rhythm, but even here it may be important to understand what
> > > > > >regular< rhythm is being flexed, so again a metronome can
> > > > > be useful. In classical music, it is very useful for
> > > > > training accuracy and evenness of execution, which is
> > > > > highly valued in this style.
> > > > >
> > > > > Dante
> > > >
> > > > well that all sounds right to me, especially the flex part.
> > > > what puzzled me is that jeff berlin seems to emphasize the
> > > > teaching methods and philosophies associated with western
> > > > classical music above all other forms of musical education.
> > > > hence his rejection of the metronome is all the more puzzling
> > > > to me . . .
> > >
> > >
> > > i also totally agree with what Dante wrote, and also with
> > > what Jon wrote in his follow-up to what i quoted.
> > >
> > > the most continously frustrating thing i've had to deal with
> > > in my experience as a teacher is that students have an
> > > extremely hard time learning how to play along with a
> > > metronome, and then therefore refuse to use it.
> > >
> > > my disciplinary style tends to cause me to go easy on them
> > > about this, but for most of them (i.e., excepting the ones
> > > who develop a good "internal metronome" early on) i still
> > > have to work hard even in counting aloud myself while they
> > > play, in order to fix their sense of the rhythm properly.
> > >
> > > most of you who are familiar with my MIDI renditions of
> > > the masterworks know that i use a lot of _rubato_ and an
> > > extremely fluid sense of tempo in my interpretations. so
> > > then this is the next step: after the student has finally
> > > learned to "play like a machine" to either his/her internal
> > > or external metronome, then he/she needs to learn how to
> > > "flex" that rigid sense of tempo (as Dante put it).
> > >
> > > the best way i've found to teach this is to give them a
> > > good grounding in music-theory (harmony, counterpoint, form),
> > > so that they understand more fully exactly what the composer
> > > is doing.
> > >
> > > (in the case of Beethoven in particular, who is very popular
> > > with many of my students, he was always composing "musical
> > > practical jokes": evaded cadences, sudden enharmonic-based
> > > surprise modulations, etc. understanding what a listener
> > > of Beethoven's time *expected* to happen next makes it much
> > > more clear what Beethoven actually did when you know that
> > > that expectation gets abruptly side-tracked.)
> > >
> > >
> > > in case anyone didn't read what Jeff Berlin actually said
> > > about the metronome, here's the quote:
> > >
> > > "don't use a metronome to learn good time because it's not
> > > going to give it to you."
> > >
> > > like paul, i'm also very puzzled as to why he would say that.
> > > it's not clear to me at all, unless he simply meant to refer
> > > to the tempo "flexing" we're talking about and didn't express
> > > himself well.
> > >
> > >
> > > -monz
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
> > Sponsor ---------------------~-->
> > > Buy Stock for $4
> > > and no minimums.
> > > FREE Money 2002.
> > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/RrLolB/TM
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -~->
> > >
> > > Meta Tuning meta-info:
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > > metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > > Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
> > >
> > > To post to the list, send to
> > > metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > > You don't have to be a member to post.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Meta Tuning meta-info:
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
> >
> > To post to the list, send to
> > metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > You don't have to be a member to post.
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
Sponsor ---------------------~-->
> Buy Stock for $4
> and no minimums.
> FREE Money 2002.
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/RrLolB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
-~->
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

--- In metatuning@y..., "paulerlich" <paul@s...> wrote:

/metatuning/topicId_2465.html#2465

> anyone have any thoughts on this?
>
> if you're not familiar with jeff berlin's views, read this:
>
> http://www.innerviews.org/inner/berlin.html
>
> my sister is a world-class classical pianist, graduating juilliard
> pre-college, and entering new england conservatory in the fall. she
> practices with a metronome, *a lot*. would jeff presume to tell her
> that that's a mistake in her education???
>
> any comments appreciated . . .

***Well, naturally, all this has to do with the nature of the music
one is playing, the age of the performer, etc., etc.

All I know is that if one is trying to teach young piano students, as
*I* have from time to time, if they don't practice with a metronome,
they will never "get it" by any other method...

J. Pehrson

--- In metatuning@y..., "paulerlich" <paul@s...> wrote:

/metatuning/topicId_2465.html#2467

> --- In metatuning@y..., "Dante Rosati" <dante.interport@r...> wrote:
> > a metronome is the simplest form of drum machine. some music is
> made to be
> > played with regular rhythm, as if with a percussionist, even if
> there isn't
> > one. this kind of music can easily be practiced with a metronome
in
> lieu of
> > an actual drummer. other music is played with a more flexible
> rhythm, but
> > even here it may be important to understand what >regular< rhythm
> is being
> > flexed, so again a metronome can be useful. In classical music,
it
> is very
> > useful for training accuracy and evenness of execution, which is
> highly
> > valued in this style.
> >
> > Dante
>
> well that all sounds right to me, especially the flex part. what
> puzzled me is that jeff berlin seems to emphasize the teaching
> methods and philosophies associated with western classical music
> above all other forms of musical education. hence his rejection of
> the metronome is all the more puzzling to me . . .

***It's probably all psychological. He sees it as a "straightjacket"
for the "straights" when all it is, is a learning tool.

J. Pehrson

--- In metatuning@y..., "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

/metatuning/topicId_2465.html#2469

>
> "don't use a metronome to learn good time because it's not
> going to give it to you."
>
> like paul, i'm also very puzzled as to why he would say that.
> it's not clear to me at all, unless he simply meant to refer
> to the tempo "flexing" we're talking about and didn't express
> himself well.
>
>
> -monz

***I think, Monz, you've come to the bottom of this. I read the
article rather quickly, and missed this subtle implication. He just
means that "good time" is something quite a bit more complex in *his*
world than the metronome can give a person, or so it seems....

J. Pehrson

--- In metatuning@y..., "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@C...> wrote:
> Hi Dante,
>
> I agree with a lot of what you say and playing with a metronome
helped
> me. But, I still think there's a big difference between keeping good
> time and playing good time, and I'd bet that's what Berlin was
> referring to--though it might teach you to keep tighten up your
time,
> a metronome is not going to teach you to play good time (a base
level
> of musicality not withstanding), and extrapolating that further, I
> don't think it's difficult to see were it can train you to be overly
> metronomic and mechanical sounding.

that makes a lot of sense, but unfortunately i don't think that's
what berlin meant. i think he may actually be opposed to musicians
using metronomes at all, as well as hand-strengthening exercises
(though i was just reading an interview with luiz bonfá, one of the
great guitarists, where bonfá extols the virtues of hand-
strengthening exercises) i'll see if i can find any other interviews
with berlin to back this up . . . what i do know is that his views
are notoriously controversial, but i just ordered his new album,
since i love his playing as well as that of gary burton, dave
liebman, and mike stern (all on the album)!

personally, the thing that improved my time (on guitar) the most,
more even than practicing with a metronome, was drumming -- going
back to the guitar, any tendency to play out of the pocket, or to
speed up or slow down, was much easier to spot, and to eliminate,
after having the experience of drumming for extended periods of
time . . .

well, it's true, i've searched many websites and jeff berlin
advocates *not* using a metronome, *period*.

here's one:

http://www.talkbass.com/features/berlin.html

Q: When did you start applying these methods to your own playing?

A: You mean reading and studying content rich music? Since I was five
years old.

Q: And you never did it with a metronome? Can you clarify your
thoughts that has been discussed in your Bass Player Magazine column?

A: I never practiced with a metronome because I knew that time was an
internal thing. Good time comes about from understanding music
internally. If you here it internally the external part, what you
hear from other musicians, is easy to understand and function with.
It is nothing.

The other day my seven year-old son was sitting on the couch and was
clapping on the two and four while singing a melody against the
rhythm and his time was perfect. Look at someone tapping their foot
to a song. Usually it is right in beat, either on the one or the two.
They didn't acquire this talent by tapping their foot with a
metronome. This is what my seven year-old son also proved; that most
people have a really good natural time sense. They just don't know
what it is or what it means. They only know how it FEELS.

--- In metatuning@y..., "paulerlich" <paul@s...> wrote:

> with berlin to back this up . . . what i do know is that his views
> are notoriously controversial, but i just ordered his new album,
> since i love his playing as well as that of gary burton, dave
> liebman, and mike stern (all on the album)!

this album arrived already!! i put on the first two tracks, and --
WOW! mike stern, danny gottlieb, gary burton, dave liebman, and of
course jeff berlin are at the top of their game -- both technically
and expressively! if you appreciate the work of any of these
musicians, or just want to hear some feel-good diminished-scale
electric bebop ripping, thumb your nose at the big record labels and
order jeff's cd!

http://www.jeffberlinmusic.com/shop/ProductDetail.asp?
ItemID=1&CategoryID=1&p=1&psize=2