opera

i dunno guys:

Kirsten Flagstad singing the liebestod from Tristan (live version w.
Furtwangler conducting)?

Pavarotti singing "Nessun Dorma"?

that old scratchy 1903 recording of Francesco Tamagno (who sang the
premiere) doing "Niun mi tema" from Otello?

CALLAS SINGING LA TRAVIATA????

None of this does anything for anybody????

???????????

> From: Dante Rosati <dante.interport@...>
> To: <metatuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 10:13 PM
> Subject: [metatuning] opera
>
>
> i dunno guys:
>
> Kirsten Flagstad singing the liebestod from Tristan (live version w.
> Furtwangler conducting)?
>
> Pavarotti singing "Nessun Dorma"?
>
> that old scratchy 1903 recording of Francesco Tamagno (who sang the
> premiere) doing "Niun mi tema" from Otello?
>
> CALLAS SINGING LA TRAVIATA????
>
> None of this does anything for anybody????
>
> ???????????

well, i'm with you, Dante! i stayed out of this thread
until now, but how could i resist a list of gems like this?

the story i have to tell about love/hate and opera: i grew
up hearing my father play this stuff a lot, and i hated it.
what's really funny -- altho i didn't know it then -- is that
what i didn't like about opera singing then is the same
thing i still don't like now: overloaded vibrato.

so when i got a stereo and borrowed my father's Beethoven
records, i went nuts over the whole classical symphonic
repertoire ... but still hated opera.

then a few years later, in college, i got a free ticket
from school, to stand way up in the top balcony at the Met,
to see a production of Strauss's _Elektra_. I was stunned.
absolutely l o v e d it !

and i also realized then that the whole experience of
attending the opera is different from the experience of
attending a concert. even the audience is very different.
at a concert, if the orchestra plays a piece no-one liked,
the response is "polite applause" instead of an ovation.
at the opera, if the audience doesn't like it, they B O O !!

as Partch might say, it's a very "corporeal" experience!

so anyway, that's how i got hooked on opera. and that was
in the days before electronic surtitles. now that you can
follow along in english (or whatever language) as you watch,
it's better still.

i was making a joke there about the corporealism, but it's
true. s e e i n g AND hearing an opera is a totally
different experience from simply listening to it on records.

the drama and stage action is (or at least, is *supposed*
to be) an integral part of the whole presentation, and while
the success of the attempt at that is variable in live
performance, it's totally nonexistent on CD. video/DVD
helps the opera-receiving experience in this respect.

-monz

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--- In metatuning@y..., "monz" <joemonz@y...> wrote:

/metatuning/topicId_1716.html#1718

>
> i was making a joke there about the corporealism, but it's
> true. s e e i n g AND hearing an opera is a totally
> different experience from simply listening to it on records.
>

****This is truly an important comment and I think it illustrates a
bit what I was saying about really enjoying the opera once one
actually sits one's fanny in the seat and listens to it there...

And, speaking of Mozart, I *am* a "Don G" fan...

JP

> i dunno guys:
>
> Kirsten Flagstad singing the liebestod from Tristan
> (live version w. Furtwangler conducting)?
>
> Pavarotti singing "Nessun Dorma"?
>
> that old scratchy 1903 recording of Francesco Tamagno (who sang
> the premiere) doing "Niun mi tema" from Otello?

I'm not familiar with these examples, but I do have recordings,
and memories of performances of opera singing that I have found
beautiful. I didn't mean to say that opera couldn't be beautiful.
I meant to say that I find it a style forged within a very
specific set of constraints (mainly, being able to hear without
amplification in a large concert hall) that I do not personally
find artistically valid (my big thing is the chamber ensemble,
preferably with one part per voice, and when economics or the
desire for a large social experience are introduced, I prescribe
amplification). The only way I can enjoy it is if I deliberately
accept those contraints while listening.

>NOT TO MENTION EVERY FREAKIN' NOTE OF LA NOZZE DI FIGARO &
>ZAUBERFLOTE?

>i was making a joke there about the corporealism, but it's
>true. s e e i n g AND hearing an opera is a totally
>different experience from simply listening to it on records.

I saw Cosi fan tutti at IU, Swan Lake and Faust in Sydney,
something in Budapest, and perhaps something else somewhere
in Czechoslovakia. I sang (in a choir) selections from
Tannhauser. I've got Zauberflote on CD (complete), a bunch of
Handel, and Bach's Mass in B min sung in opera voices (yuck),
as well as the Coffee Cantata. Plus, I saw Mark Morris' Platee
(in Berkeley) recently, and many, many productions of the
Messiah. Oh yeah, and I have that killer record with Wynton
and Kathleen Battle, which I've heard makes opera fans cringe.

-Carl

I wrote...

> I saw Cosi fan tutti at IU, Swan Lake and Faust in Sydney,
> something in Budapest, and perhaps something else somewhere
> in Czechoslovakia. I sang (in a choir) selections from
> Tannhauser. I've got Zauberflote on CD (complete), a bunch of
> Handel, and Bach's Mass in B min sung in opera voices (yuck),
> as well as the Coffee Cantata. Plus, I saw Mark Morris' Platee
> (in Berkeley) recently, and many, many productions of the
> Messiah. Oh yeah, and I have that killer record with Wynton
> and Kathleen Battle, which I've heard makes opera fans cringe.

Oh yeah- I've played wind-band arrangments of Rossini and Verdi,
which can be great fun. (I am sure this is will earn me even
more points as a bona fide an opera critic! :)

-C.

--- In metatuning@y..., "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> --- In metatuning@y..., "monz" <joemonz@y...> wrote:
> > i was making a joke there about the corporealism, but it's
> > true. s e e i n g AND hearing an opera is a totally
> > different experience from simply listening to it on records.
> >
> ****This is truly an important comment and I think it illustrates a
> bit what I was saying about really enjoying the opera once one
> actually sits one's fanny in the seat and listens to it there...
>
> And, speaking of Mozart, I *am* a "Don G" fan...
>
> JP

I grew up listening to other classical music all Saturday and opera
every Sunday (my dad played records all day on the weekends no matter
what else he was doing!). I have an abiding love for orchestral and
chamber music, and in fact just about any serious music, but as for
opera, I like the music but I can't stand listening to it *sung*. The
vibrato is sooooo annoying. I have experienced opera live several
times (folks took me to Santa Fe opera and others indoors), and
although it is less annoying to me, I still wouldn't pay to listen.
Funny, I can listen to strings with the same depth of vibrato, and
although it is slightly annoying, it doesn't grind at me the same way
the operatic voice does.

John Starrett

> From: jdstarrett <jstarret@...>
> To: <metatuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 7:29 PM
> Subject: [metatuning] Re: opera
>
>
> I grew up listening to other classical music all Saturday and opera
> every Sunday (my dad played records all day on the weekends no matter
> what else he was doing!). I have an abiding love for orchestral and
> chamber music, and in fact just about any serious music, but as for
> opera, I like the music but I can't stand listening to it *sung*. The
> vibrato is sooooo annoying. I have experienced opera live several
> times (folks took me to Santa Fe opera and others indoors), and
> although it is less annoying to me, I still wouldn't pay to listen.
> Funny, I can listen to strings with the same depth of vibrato, and
> although it is slightly annoying, it doesn't grind at me the same way
> the operatic voice does.

i agree with you completely about operatic vocal vibrato!
somehow i neglected to mention that in my original post on
this thread.

and i agree also that the heavy vibrato is more objectionable
in voices than on strings. but i think that's because
singers use a much wider vibrato than good string players.

in almost everything i've written for the voice, i've
had to specify "very little vibrato" to get the sound
i was after.

-monz

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I agree also about disliking wide vibrato (in opera or elsewhere). It distracts from the interval, no doubt. John Cage was notoriously against vibrato. Maybe Varese, too. Ives seemed to enjoy a healthy vibrato.

Johnny Reinhard

--- In metatuning@y..., "jdstarrett" <jstarret@c...> wrote:

> Funny, I can listen to strings with the same depth of vibrato, and
> although it is slightly annoying, it doesn't grind at me the same
way
> the operatic voice does.
>
> John Starrett

are you sure about that 'same depth' bit? i think the typical depth
is a semitone for strings, and a minor third for operatic voices.

--- In metatuning@y..., "paulerlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> --- In metatuning@y..., "jdstarrett" <jstarret@c...> wrote:
>
> > Funny, I can listen to strings with the same depth of vibrato, and
> > although it is slightly annoying, it doesn't grind at me the same
> way
> > the operatic voice does.
> >
> > John Starrett
>
> are you sure about that 'same depth' bit? i think the typical depth
> is a semitone for strings, and a minor third for operatic voices.

A semitone and a minor third? That seems wrong to me. On my cello, a
semitone is about an inch at the nut. String players just rock their
fingers over the fingertip pivot.... OK, maybe on a violin we might
have a semitone, but a minor third in the voice? I am going to listen
to some opera right now; mind you, just for research purposes!

John Starrett

> From: jdstarrett <jstarret@...>
> To: <metatuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 7:41 AM
> Subject: [metatuning] Re: opera
>
>
> --- In metatuning@y..., "paulerlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> > --- In metatuning@y..., "jdstarrett" <jstarret@c...> wrote:
> >
> > > Funny, I can listen to strings with the same depth of
> > > vibrato, and although it is slightly annoying, it
> > > doesn't grind at me the same way the operatic voice does.
> > >
> > > John Starrett
> >
> > are you sure about that 'same depth' bit? i think the
> > typical depth is a semitone for strings, and a minor
> > third for operatic voices.
>
> A semitone and a minor third? That seems wrong to me.
> On my cello, a semitone is about an inch at the nut.
> String players just rock their fingers over the fingertip
> pivot.... OK, maybe on a violin we might have a semitone,
> but a minor third in the voice? I am going to listen
> to some opera right now; mind you, just for research
> purposes!

i thought those string vibrato depths seemed a little
wide myself. ok, i can possibly go with a semitone
at the extreme for a violin, but not as much for the
larger string instruments.

but as far as operatic vocals go: yep, John, a minor 3rd
sounds about right, believe it or not. at the ISMA
conference in Italy last September, one of the presentations
was an analysis of a single sustained note from various
performances of some famous aria (sorry, don't remember
which). IIRC, Maria Callas had the widest vibrato of
all the samples, coming in at a little over +/- 100 cents
from the central pitch, or a range of vibrato of more than
a "whole-tone".

but i should also note, since i'm n o t a fan of
wide vibrato, that Callas's singing of that note
sounded better overall than any of the other samples,
attesting to her artistry. i'm referring here to
such things as the amount of time at the beginning
of the note which was given *without* vibratio, the
rate at which vibrato depth increased, the overall
curve of the average pitch of the note, etc. all of
these little details were the subject of the presentation.

-monz

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

> > A semitone and a minor third? That seems wrong to me.
> > On my cello, a semitone is about an inch at the nut.
> > String players just rock their fingers over the fingertip
> > pivot.... OK, maybe on a violin we might have a semitone,
> > but a minor third in the voice? I am going to listen
> > to some opera right now; mind you, just for research
> > purposes!
>
>
> i thought those string vibrato depths seemed a little
> wide myself. ok, i can possibly go with a semitone
> at the extreme for a violin, but not as much for the
> larger string instruments.
>
> but as far as operatic vocals go: yep, John, a minor 3rd
> sounds about right, believe it or not. at the ISMA
> conference in Italy last September, one of the presentations
> was an analysis of a single sustained note from various
> performances of some famous aria (sorry, don't remember
> which). IIRC, Maria Callas had the widest vibrato of
> all the samples, coming in at a little over +/- 100 cents
> from the central pitch, or a range of vibrato of more than
> a "whole-tone".
>
> but i should also note, since i'm n o t a fan of
> wide vibrato, that Callas's singing of that note
> sounded better overall than any of the other samples,
> attesting to her artistry. i'm referring here to
> such things as the amount of time at the beginning
> of the note which was given *without* vibratio, the
> rate at which vibrato depth increased, the overall
> curve of the average pitch of the note, etc. all of
> these little details were the subject of the presentation.
>
>
> -monz

OK, I listened to several arias, and the worst was about a whole tone
wide. I concede there could well be minor third warblings (or more!)
on record. Gawd, them screechin opera chicks gets on my nerves! Have
any classic operas been tried without vibrato? I have heard some
modern serious vocal works done plain, and it works for me. Seems like
some of the old masters would benefit from a reworking.

John Starrett