the "woist" orchestrator

And of the "classic greats" ... meaning, of course, dead white male,
mostly Germanic composers... :) who was the "woist" orchestrator??

I would say Schumann...

Mud-deeee!

JP

Overrated to begin with as a whole- does nothing for me

jpehrson2 wrote:

>
> I would say Schumann...
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

Bruckner was a terrible orchestrator; but I agree Ravel is (near) tops. Johnny Reinhard

--- In metatuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:

/metatuning/topicId_1611.html#1614

> Bruckner was a terrible orchestrator; but I agree Ravel is (near)
tops. Johnny Reinhard

ooooohhh. i forgot about *him*...!!

or-gaaaaaannnn !

jp

yes Bruckner another one that doesn't do it for me - even Klemperer can't save him- and
back to Tchaikovsky - always underrated especially by the theroy/form crowd. It is that
edge of madness in some much of what he does

Afmmjr@... wrote:

> Bruckner was a terrible orchestrator; but I agree Ravel is (near) tops. Johnny Reinhard
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

re: Schumann and whether he sucked or not: "Widmung" is one of the great
lieder:

http://www.dlib.indiana.edu/variations/scores/bgp0487/large/sco10003.html

also his piano Fantasy is great, expecially as played by Horowitz. These are
not his only great works.

re: orchestration: my candidate for most "out there" orchestration is "Moses
and Aaron" by Schoenberg. Also Xenakis, such as "Pithoprakta" and
"Kraanerg".

Berlioz is also an amazing orchestrator. So is Sibelius sometimes.

The opening of Bruckner's 9th is awesome (IMO). And speaking of which,
Wagner could get some interesting sounds out of an orchestra too, lets not
forget.

I suppose Mahler was a good orchestrator, too bad his music is so cheesy
(sorry Monz!).

I agree Ravel is up there too.

Dante

> From: jpehrson2 <jpehrson@...>
> To: <metatuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 12:31 PM
> Subject: [metatuning] Re: the "woist" orchestrator
>
>
> --- In metatuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:
>
> /metatuning/topicId_1611.html#1614
>
> > Bruckner was a terrible orchestrator; but I agree Ravel is (near)
> tops. Johnny Reinhard
>
>
> ooooohhh. i forgot about *him*...!!
>
> or-gaaaaaannnn !

ok, i'll agree that Bruckner treated the orchestra like some
gigantic organ. but i'm a fan, and his music can still be
quite effective (and dramatic) if interpreted correctly.

hopefully, i'm on the right track... here's the last section
of the last movement of Bruckner's 5th Symphony, in my
(12-edo) computer realization [about 2 megs, 4 minutes]:

http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/bruckner/Bruck5th.mp3

the place where Bruckner's technique really falls short is
in his constant use of 4-measure phrases. it gives his
symphonies a "squareness" that can become tedious.

-monz

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> Message 1642
> From: "monz" <joemonz@y...>
> Date: Mon Feb 4, 2002 10:00 pm
> Subject: Re: [metatuning] Re: the "woist" orchestrator
>
>
> ok, i'll agree that Bruckner treated the orchestra like some
> gigantic organ. but i'm a fan, and his music can still be
> quite effective (and dramatic) if interpreted correctly.
>
> hopefully, i'm on the right track... here's the last section
> of the last movement of Bruckner's 5th Symphony, in my
> (12-edo) computer realization [about 2 megs, 4 minutes]:
>
> http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/bruckner/Bruck5th.mp3

i meant to mention that when i made the mp3 of this, the
important timpani part didn't come out sounding too well,
so i redid it and lowered the volume on the timpani track.
so it still doesn't sound exactly right.

-monz

--- In metatuning@y..., Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:

/metatuning/topicId_1611.html#1619

> yes Bruckner another one that doesn't do it for me - even Klemperer
can't save him- and
> back to Tchaikovsky - always underrated especially by the
theroy/form crowd. It is that
> edge of madness in some much of what he does
>

***Hmmm... I'd never thought about Tchaikovsky in quite that way
before...

JP

Joe!
Yes for me Peter T is always about to lose it. There are many examples
of tragedy superimposed with exuberance. No one sane would/could do this. I
really like him though and been listening to him a lot over the last year.
His most confident passages always are shaky/fragile in tone.
also alot of Feldman - now this composer really needed another tuning,
things that really held together as sonorities one could wallow in! Don't
hear Pythagorean but upper limit just 11-17, maybe 19-23 also.

jpehrson2 wrote:

> --- In metatuning@y..., Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
>
> /metatuning/topicId_1611.html#1619
>
> > yes Bruckner another one that doesn't do it for me - even Klemperer
> can't save him- and
> > back to Tchaikovsky - always underrated especially by the
> theroy/form crowd. It is that
> > edge of madness in some much of what he does
> >
>
> ***Hmmm... I'd never thought about Tchaikovsky in quite that way
> before...
>
> JP

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

--- In metatuning@y..., Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:

/metatuning/topicId_1611.html#1653

Hi Kraig!

You have some interesting observations! I always enjoy when somebody
tells me something I hadn't already thought about! Feldman, too... I
think you're right that he's the wrong composer for 12-tET!

JP

> Joe!
> Yes for me Peter T is always about to lose it. There are many
examples
> of tragedy superimposed with exuberance. No one sane would/could do
this. I
> really like him though and been listening to him a lot over the
last year.
> His most confident passages always are shaky/fragile in tone.
> also alot of Feldman - now this composer really needed another
tuning,
> things that really held together as sonorities one could wallow in!
Don't
> hear Pythagorean but upper limit just 11-17, maybe 19-23 also.
>
> jpehrson2 wrote:
>
> > --- In metatuning@y..., Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
> >
> > /metatuning/topicId_1611.html#1619
> >
> > > yes Bruckner another one that doesn't do it for me - even
Klemperer
> > can't save him- and
> > > back to Tchaikovsky - always underrated especially by the
> > theroy/form crowd. It is that
> > > edge of madness in some much of what he does
> > >
> >
> > ***Hmmm... I'd never thought about Tchaikovsky in quite that way
> > before...
> >
> > JP
>
> -- Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
> http://www.anaphoria.com
>
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

George Gershwin was probably one of the worst orchestrators (since he had to
hire them).

Monz, you're showing a bit of bias towards Mahler...but I guess you knew
that. I would suggest Charles Ives's "Universe Symphony" as a great
symphony. And there will be a release sometime this year for it, et al.
Ives, for all his accused amateurity, really came up with nifty sound
combinations. It's better in my opinion to Bruckner or to Neilsen. Though
Sibelius is truly gifted as an orchestrator, it's hard not to take into
account musical substance and philosophy (as in reactions against Tchaikovsky
or Ravel).

Johnny Reinhard

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> From: Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>
> To: <metatuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 8:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [metatuning] Re: the "woist" orchestrator
>
>
> jpehrson2 wrote:
>
> > --- In metatuning@y..., Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
> >
> > /metatuning/topicId_1611.html#1619
> >
> > > yes Bruckner another one that doesn't do it for me -
> > > even Klemperer can't save him- and back to Tchaikovsky
> > > - always underrated especially by the theory/form crowd.
> > > It is that edge of madness in some much of what he does
> > >
> >
> > ***Hmmm... I'd never thought about Tchaikovsky in quite that way
> > before...
> >
> > JP
>
>
> Joe!
> Yes for me Peter T is always about to lose it. There are many examples
> of tragedy superimposed with exuberance. No one sane would/could do this.
I
> really like him though and been listening to him a lot over the last year.
> His most confident passages always are shaky/fragile in tone.
> also alot of Feldman - now this composer really needed another tuning,
> things that really held together as sonorities one could wallow in! Don't
> hear Pythagorean but upper limit just 11-17, maybe 19-23 also.

i've really been enjoying this exchange about Tchaikovsky, another
one of my long-time favorites, and the emphasis on his "madness".

to me, what's wrong with most of the recordings i've heard of
Tchaikovsky that don't quite cut it, is that the conductor
doesn't whip the orchestra into the kind of f r e n z y
that's really called for in Tchaikovsky scores, particularly
in the ending sections of movements.

and speaking of frenzy ... Carl said something about
Beethoven's 9th being "circus music". i believe that
again there, most conductors miss the mark because the
joy being expressed at the end has to be i n s a n e !

-monz

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In-Reply-To: <005601c1ae5c$2b7385e0$af48620c@...>
monz wrote:

> to me, what's wrong with most of the recordings i've heard of
> Tchaikovsky that don't quite cut it, is that the conductor
> doesn't whip the orchestra into the kind of f r e n z y
> that's really called for in Tchaikovsky scores, particularly
> in the ending sections of movements.

One thing about Tchaikovsky is that he was a compulsive liar. He often
acted excessively friendly towards people as a way of mocking them (at
least to himself). So if the music sounds like it should be frenzied but
isn't, that might be exactly what was intended. It certainly gains a new
dimension if you listen to it that way.

The second to last movement of the Pathetique Symphony's the obvious
example. Shostakovitch learnt a thing or two from that ...

Graham

In-Reply-To: <192.1eb3a0c.29915378@...>
Johnny Reinhard wrote:

> George Gershwin was probably one of the worst orchestrators (since he
> had to hire them).

I thought he did, eventually learn.

Graham

Johnny!
Well since he knew his limitations, unlike others, i think those who were
unaware at how bad they were should get the booby prize:)

Afmmjr@... wrote:

> George Gershwin was probably one of the worst orchestrators (since he had to
> hire them).
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm