Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup metatuning Re: [tuning] Re: Orchestration / Microtonality / Adler

--- In metatuning@y..., "monz" <joemonz@y...> wrote:
>
> > From: Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
> > To: <metatuning@y...>
> > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 11:25 AM
> > Subject: Re: [metatuning] [tuning] Re: Orchestration /
Microtonality /
> Adler
> >
> >
> > Glad you brought him back into the mix and he is up with the rest!
> >
> > jpehrson2 wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > ****Nobody beats *Ravel* in *my* book, but I'm a Stravinsky
digger...
>
>
> yup, i put Ravel pretty high up there as an orchestrator too,
> and in many cases as a composer too.

i've seen ravel rated as a second-tier composer but i don't buy it.
his piano music is some of my favorite ever. and he was far from
irrelevant to the developments of the twentieth century -- charlie
parker and other revolutionary jazzers studied ravel's harmonies and
used their findings in their own innovations.

🔗clumma <carl@...>

>>****Nobody beats *Ravel* in *my* book, but I'm a Stravinsky
>>digger...
>
>yup, i put Ravel pretty high up there as an orchestrator too,
>and in many cases as a composer too.

I can't hold out any longer!!

"Great" can mean many things, and there are so many who were
so good, it blows the mind. Nevertheless!

Ravel - great skill, but treats the orchestra like a pop band.

Mahler - arguably the best, invents his own "orchestra"

Sibelius - I don't care for the music, and treats the orchestra
like a synthesizer, but I think the guy knew what he was doing
in this regard. On the other side of Ravel from Mahler in terms
of what made his orchestration interesting.

Stravinsky - A good bet for best all-around.

Shostakovitch - Should be mentioned! Probably on my personal
favs list with Mahler and Stravinsky.

Then we must decide wether to account for "inflation". If so, I
say Mozart would win, hands down! And Tchai goes to nothing.

Beethoven wrote my favorite symphonies, but I could see an
argument that he was a terrible orchestrator. But he was
the first to break the sections of the orch. out of their roles,
and treat the entire thing as a uniform palette. Adjusting
for inflation, he would come out right below Mozart.

Prokofiev often strikes me as a bad orchestrator. Also,
Schubert (please, don't kill me) strikes me as pure cheese.
I don't think I've ever heard Schumann, but I wouldn't be
surprised if he was bad. Some of his piano music is killer,
though, Kraig. Steer clear of the over-played and cheesy
Fantasy in C minor.

-Carl

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

Paul!
Yea, never understood the trashing of this one. The two suites of
Daphnes and Chloe
are unsurpassed.
As long as we want to mention underrated, i recently got Hindemith's
Kammermusiken 1-7 the chamber concertos and they really really lots of fun
was sorry i hadn't heard them till now.
And the winner of the underrated of the underrated KODALY!

paulerlich wrote:

> i've seen ravel rated as a second-tier composer but i don't buy it.
> his piano music is some of my favorite ever. and he was far from
> irrelevant to the developments of the twentieth century -- charlie
> parker and other revolutionary jazzers studied ravel's harmonies and
> used their findings in their own innovations.
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

🔗monz <joemonz@...>

> From: clumma <carl@...>
> To: <metatuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 1:54 PM
> Subject: [metatuning] Re: Orchestration / Microtonality / Adler
>
>
> I can't hold out any longer!!
>
> "Great" can mean many things, and there are so many who were
> so good, it blows the mind. Nevertheless!
>
> Ravel - great skill, but treats the orchestra like a pop band.
>
> Mahler - arguably the best, invents his own "orchestra"

thanks, Carl! :)

> Sibelius - I don't care for the music, and treats the orchestra
> like a synthesizer, but I think the guy knew what he was doing
> in this regard. On the other side of Ravel from Mahler in terms
> of what made his orchestration interesting.

hmmm ... i'd like you to say more about what you mean there.

Sibelius and Mahler once met and had a well-known conversation
in which they both approached writing symphonies in an entirely
different manner.

> Stravinsky - A good bet for best all-around.
>
> Shostakovitch - Should be mentioned! Probably on my personal
> favs list with Mahler and Stravinsky.
>
> Then we must decide wether to account for "inflation". If so, I
> say Mozart would win, hands down! And Tchai goes to nothing.

yeah, "inflation adjustment" is a good concept.
things really changed a lot after Beethoven.

> Beethoven wrote my favorite symphonies, but I could see an
> argument that he was a terrible orchestrator. But he was
> the first to break the sections of the orch. out of their roles,
> and treat the entire thing as a uniform palette. Adjusting
> for inflation, he would come out right below Mozart.

Beethoven was the great innovator all the way around. i wouldn't
say "he was a terrible orchestrator", but sheesh, he did go deaf.

some of his orchestral touches are great because of their humor.
my favorite is in the scherzo from the 6th Symphony ("Pastoral"),
where his intention was to portray a country band. the guys who
really d i d play in the country pubs he frequented would often
doze off after dinner during long rests in the music, to be
awakened with a nudge from a player sitting next to them. Beethoven
mimics this effect here by bringing the bassoon in a measure too
late at one point.

there's something similar in the timpani part of the scherzo of
the 9th Symphony, where the beat changes to a 3-measure group.
at one point, all other instruments stop and the timpani play
their characteristic octave rhythm on the first measure of
each phrase. then after doing right a few times, the other
instruments don't stop when they're supposed to and the timpani
comes in a measure too late, as if the other players's not
stopping on time had thrown off his count.

Beethoven was fond of playing practical jokes on the musicians
in his orchestras in this manner. unfortunately most listeners
today miss the jokes and don't have a clue that there's humor
in there.

> Prokofiev often strikes me as a bad orchestrator. Also,
> Schubert (please, don't kill me) strikes me as pure cheese.
> I don't think I've ever heard Schumann, but I wouldn't be
> surprised if he was bad. Some of his piano music is killer,
> though, Kraig. Steer clear of the over-played and cheesy
> Fantasy in C minor.

Schumann, and certainly Chopin, were masters of composing for
the piano, and not as skilled writing for orchestra.

Schumann and Schubert both wrote hundreds of great _lieder_
... can't leave that out.

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

🔗Dante Rosati <dante.interport@...>

🔗clumma <carl@...>

>> Mahler - arguably the best, invents his own "orchestra"
>
>
> thanks, Carl! :)

You bet!

>>Sibelius - I don't care for the music, and treats the orchestra
>>like a synthesizer, but I think the guy knew what he was doing
>>in this regard. On the other side of Ravel from Mahler in terms
>>of what made his orchestration interesting.
>
> hmmm ... i'd like you to say more about what you mean there.

I recently got a disc of his chamber music which is not like
Sibelius at all (apparently from "early" on). But the stuff of
his I've heard for orchestra is basically New Age music. It bores
the hell out of me, but it's clear this guy had a very deep
understanding of the sounds and sound combinations possible in a
modern orchestra.

Ravel, as you once said, was basically making pretty jewelry
with music. I know we're supposed to be forgetting the music
and just discussing orchestration skill, but it just isn't
possible. Mahler enlists the devil... hocketing parts around
on different scales simultaneously... to what extent this is
orchestration, and what sense composing? Yes, Dante, Mahler
tries too hard sometimes, even for a German like me.

>some of his orchestral touches are great because of their humor.
>my favorite is in the scherzo from the 6th Symphony ("Pastoral"),
>where his intention was to portray a country band. the guys who
>really d i d play in the country pubs he frequented would often
>doze off after dinner during long rests in the music, to be
>awakened with a nudge from a player sitting next to them. Beethoven
>mimics this effect here by bringing the bassoon in a measure too
>late at one point.
>
>there's something similar in the timpani part of the scherzo of
>the 9th Symphony, where the beat changes to a 3-measure group.
>at one point, all other instruments stop and the timpani play
>their characteristic octave rhythm on the first measure of
>each phrase. then after doing right a few times, the other
>instruments don't stop when they're supposed to and the timpani
>comes in a measure too late, as if the other players's not
>stopping on time had thrown off his count.

Absolutely right, all around. The 9th symphony is practically
circus music, in fact.

> Schumann and Schubert both wrote hundreds of great _lieder_
> ... can't leave that out.

Oh yes we can! I _hate_ lieder.

-Carl

🔗clumma <carl@...>

🔗Dante Rosati <dante.interport@...>

🔗clumma <carl@...>

🔗Dante Rosati <dante.interport@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

The fourth sym. done by von kar. one of my favorite pieces. no one else does
it justice, even the fins. It represents a whole new form of "impressionism"
unlike anyone else. I believe every phrase in the first movement begins and
ends on an upbeat!

clumma wrote:

> >> Mahler - arguably the best, invents his own "orchestra"
> >
> >
> > thanks, Carl! :)
>
> You bet!
>
> >>Sibelius - I don't care for the music, and treats the orchestra
> >>like a synthesizer, but I think the guy knew what he was doing
> >>in this regard. On the other side of Ravel from Mahler in terms
> >>of what made his orchestration interesting.
> >
> > hmmm ... i'd like you to say more about what you mean there.
>
> I recently got a disc of his chamber music which is not like
> Sibelius at all (apparently from "early" on). But the stuff of
> his I've heard for orchestra is basically New Age music. It bores
> the hell out of me, but it's clear this guy had a very deep
> understanding of the sounds and sound combinations possible in a
> modern orchestra.
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

I likewise find the western use of voice unbearable. It was designed for
volume and seems to sacrifice everything for that. Raised on opera, i find
it unlistenable.

Dante Rosati wrote:

> > Oh yes we can! I _hate_ lieder.
> >
> > -Carl
>
> Come on, Carl- subjective evaluations of cheesiness is one thing, but how
> can you say you "hate" songs? What is that supposed to mean?
>
> Dante
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
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-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

🔗clumma <carl@...>

>Finally, the instrumentation of
>voice and piano is about on a level
>with scratching a chalkboard,
>to my ear,
>
>even john lennon singing "Imagine"?

Touche. That's just vamping, though,
which has less rhythmic connection
to the vocal part than a lot of the
classical stuff. And it isn't
acoustic music -- he's got a mic.

>>and voice and 30pc. ensemble is abusive of the very
>>the most sublime of all instruments, the voice.
>>
>> -Carl
>
>so you hate all of opera too? wow, thats pretty austere. :)

I gave it my best shot on a number of occasions, but it
does nothing for me.

I also give pennies on Halloween and Birthdays.

-Carl

🔗clumma <carl@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗jpehrson2 <jpehrson@...>

--- In metatuning@y..., "monz" <joemonz@y...> wrote:

/metatuning/topicId_1603.html#1626

>
> Beethoven was the great innovator all the way around. i wouldn't
> say "he was a terrible orchestrator", but sheesh, he did go deaf.
>
> some of his orchestral touches are great because of their humor.
> my favorite is in the scherzo from the 6th Symphony ("Pastoral"),
> where his intention was to portray a country band. the guys who
> really d i d play in the country pubs he frequented would often
> doze off after dinner during long rests in the music, to be
> awakened with a nudge from a player sitting next to them. Beethoven
> mimics this effect here by bringing the bassoon in a measure too
> late at one point.
>
> there's something similar in the timpani part of the scherzo of
> the 9th Symphony, where the beat changes to a 3-measure group.
> at one point, all other instruments stop and the timpani play
> their characteristic octave rhythm on the first measure of
> each phrase. then after doing right a few times, the other
> instruments don't stop when they're supposed to and the timpani
> comes in a measure too late, as if the other players's not
> stopping on time had thrown off his count.
>
> Beethoven was fond of playing practical jokes on the musicians
> in his orchestras in this manner. unfortunately most listeners
> today miss the jokes and don't have a clue that there's humor
> in there.
>

****I never knew this, Monz! And the 6th was always one of my
*faves...* I'll have to go back and try to figure out where this all
is. I've always found humor in Beethoven... maybe not so much as in
Haydn, but it certainly is there...

🔗jpehrson2 <jpehrson@...>

--- In metatuning@y..., "clumma" <carl@l...> wrote:

/metatuning/topicId_1603.html#1630

> >>I don't think I've ever heard Schumann, but I wouldn't be
> >>surprised if he was bad. Some of his piano music is killer,
> >>though, Kraig. Steer clear of the over-played and cheesy
> >>Fantasy in C minor.
> >
> > hehe. I guess cheesiness is in the taste of the beholder.
>
> Yep! :)
>
> Have you heard his piano sonatas? A little heavy-handed,
> but cool. Most notable in my book are actually his short
> works, the intermezzi, impromptus, albumblatter.
>
> -Carl

Kinderszenen, Carnaval.... good. Lots of piano music written for
Liszt's daughter, Clara...

🔗jpehrson2 <jpehrson@...>

--- In metatuning@y..., "clumma" <carl@l...> wrote:

/metatuning/topicId_1603.html#1631

**Try Nielsen. Maybe not much of an orchestrator, but some
pretty "modern" and cool stuff.

🔗clumma <carl@...>

🔗paulerlich <paul@...>

--- In metatuning@y..., "clumma" <carl@l...> wrote:

> >so you hate all of opera too? wow, thats pretty austere. :)

> I gave it my best shot on a number of occasions, but it
> does nothing for me.

let me quote the book i'm reading now, _miles beyond_ by paul tingen:

"Before miles there was a strong tendency to dramatize expressions,
to overplay and overact. Overacting in silent movies is a prime
example; the nineteenth-century novel--with its tendency for flowery
language, extremely detailed descriptions, and stories loaded with
subplots--is another. Similarly, the operatic singing style of the
eighteenth and nineteenth centuries developed a strong, artificial
vibrato that was designed to enlarge the volume of the voice and is
in effect a form of oversinging.
"These ornate sytlistic approaches were part of the romantic art
style, and, with the exception of the classical singer, if a modern
musician, actor, or writer were to use them, his or her efforts would
quickly be regarded as over the top, possibly even kitsch. By
contrast, the modern approach is based on understatement and economy
of means, on a mire direct, no-frills, natural style, in which
vibrato, or overacting, or flowery language, is discouraged."

so, perhaps to carl and me, the operatic singing style represents a
strange and isolated holdover from a departed artistic ethos.

🔗jpehrson2 <jpehrson@...>

--- In metatuning@y..., "paulerlich" <paul@s...> wrote:

/metatuning/topicId_1603.html#1682

> --- In metatuning@y..., "clumma" <carl@l...> wrote:
>
> > >so you hate all of opera too? wow, thats pretty austere. :)
>
> > I gave it my best shot on a number of occasions, but it
> > does nothing for me.
>
> let me quote the book i'm reading now, _miles beyond_ by paul
tingen:
>
> "Before miles there was a strong tendency to dramatize expressions,
> to overplay and overact. Overacting in silent movies is a prime
> example; the nineteenth-century novel--with its tendency for
flowery
> language, extremely detailed descriptions, and stories loaded with
> subplots--is another. Similarly, the operatic singing style of the
> eighteenth and nineteenth centuries developed a strong, artificial
> vibrato that was designed to enlarge the volume of the voice and is
> in effect a form of oversinging.
> "These ornate sytlistic approaches were part of the romantic art
> style, and, with the exception of the classical singer, if a modern
> musician, actor, or writer were to use them, his or her efforts
would
> quickly be regarded as over the top, possibly even kitsch. By
> contrast, the modern approach is based on understatement and
economy
> of means, on a mire direct, no-frills, natural style, in which
> vibrato, or overacting, or flowery language, is discouraged."
>
> so, perhaps to carl and me, the operatic singing style represents a
> strange and isolated holdover from a departed artistic ethos.

***I wonder what Carl, or *you* Paul think of the vocal style of a
composer such as Luciano Berio??

🔗paulerlich <paul@...>

--- In metatuning@y..., "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:

> ***I wonder what Carl, or *you* Paul think of the vocal style of a
> composer such as Luciano Berio??

i profess complete ignorance. point me to a recording.

p.s. paul tingen (again) just mentioned berio in the book i'm
reading. he's referring (as in the other quote) to ken wilber's
philosophy (that dave keenan and i were just discussing), and is the
the middle of explaining why miles didn't go avant-garde, didn't
become a "museum piece", and chose the third alternative of including
rock elements:

"On the other hand, much avant-garde art has been forgotten by
history because it either announced a worldview that never
manifested, or developed in a dysfunctional manner that did not
correspond with evolution's inherent process of "transcend and
include." Art that does not include the past, that only tries to
transcend it, has invariably been shown to have little depth or
lasting value. A strong case can be made for the argument that the
latter happened to some degree with the mid- to late-twentieth
century avant-garde. Only a few of the leading names of the classical
music avant-garde -- such as Luciano Berio, Karlheinz Stockhausen,
Pierre Boulez, and Olivier Messiaen -- have broken through to the
general audience, while the movement's music and ideas, though
influential, have not announced a new musical paradigm. The classical
avant-garde's music has not become mainstream and since the end of
the twentieth century the classical music world, as well as some of
the above-mentioned protagonists, has increasingly been edging back
to more traditional tonalities and structures."

what do you think of this assessment, josef?

🔗jpehrson2 <jpehrson@...>

--- In metatuning@y..., "paulerlich" <paul@s...> wrote:

/metatuning/topicId_1603.html#1692

> --- In metatuning@y..., "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
>
> > ***I wonder what Carl, or *you* Paul think of the vocal style of
a
> > composer such as Luciano Berio??
>
> i profess complete ignorance. point me to a recording.
>
> p.s. paul tingen (again) just mentioned berio in the book i'm
> reading. he's referring (as in the other quote) to ken wilber's
> philosophy (that dave keenan and i were just discussing), and is
the
> the middle of explaining why miles didn't go avant-garde, didn't
> become a "museum piece", and chose the third alternative of
including
> rock elements:
>
> "On the other hand, much avant-garde art has been forgotten by
> history because it either announced a worldview that never
> manifested, or developed in a dysfunctional manner that did not
> correspond with evolution's inherent process of "transcend and
> include." Art that does not include the past, that only tries to
> transcend it, has invariably been shown to have little depth or
> lasting value. A strong case can be made for the argument that the
> latter happened to some degree with the mid- to late-twentieth
> century avant-garde. Only a few of the leading names of the
classical
> music avant-garde -- such as Luciano Berio, Karlheinz Stockhausen,
> Pierre Boulez, and Olivier Messiaen -- have broken through to the
> general audience, while the movement's music and ideas, though
> influential, have not announced a new musical paradigm. The
classical
> avant-garde's music has not become mainstream and since the end of
> the twentieth century the classical music world, as well as some of
> the above-mentioned protagonists, has increasingly been edging back
> to more traditional tonalities and structures."
>
> what do you think of this assessment, josef?

****Well, Paul, it's a tad unfair to generalize like that about style
with such a broad brush (He should be a housepainter!) ... The
*best* composers are *always* going to be remembered, the others
forgotten. I can't see how it's any different in jazz: there's
Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Monk but billions of other
*forgottens...* Does that mean jazz as a genre or style should
be "dissed" as not having enough "influence..."

I also, quite frankly, am not a "vocal" fan so much, although once
you get me into the Met and sit me down there I have a wonderful
time...! My wife always thought she didn't like opera until she
actually *heard* one (some...) :) Now she loves it. Much of this
is "exposure..."

However, what I *don't* like in the vocal style is a kind
of "pomposity" that somehow goes along with singing and
the "warbling" of the tremolo which insults anybody who's sensitive
to pitch! :). However, composers like Berio seem to totally get
around this, if not lampoon it. He treats the voice more as a
musical instrument mixed with very contemporary theatre.
Nothing "stuffy" about that, for sure:

You'll have to do a "cut and paste" job on the below, and I hope it
works. But if not, just go to CD NOW and search for Luciano Berio,
and then to the CD "Great Works for Voice." This CD was produced by
my friend Laura Kaminsky (the maverick! how did she do that!) who
also got Christine Schadeberg, one of the best new music sopranos
anywhere, to record it on Mode records.

I recommend "Sequenza" and "O King" for samples of the more abstract,
and the beautiful orchestrations of folk songs, which have been very
popular, of course. I like CD NOW since you can hear all this stuff
before buying it but, of course, they only give you a few seconds so
you can see if you want the CD:

http://www.cdnow.com/cgi-
bin/mserver/SID=431968232/pagename=/RP/CDN/CLASS/muzealbum.html/itemid
=273840

🔗paulerlich <paul@...>

--- In metatuning@y..., "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> --- In metatuning@y..., "paulerlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
>
> /metatuning/topicId_1603.html#1692
>
> > --- In metatuning@y..., "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> >
> > > ***I wonder what Carl, or *you* Paul think of the vocal style
of
> a
> > > composer such as Luciano Berio??
> >
> > i profess complete ignorance. point me to a recording.
> >
> > p.s. paul tingen (again) just mentioned berio in the book i'm
> > reading. he's referring (as in the other quote) to ken wilber's
> > philosophy (that dave keenan and i were just discussing), and is
> the
> > the middle of explaining why miles didn't go avant-garde, didn't
> > become a "museum piece", and chose the third alternative of
> including
> > rock elements:
> >
> > "On the other hand, much avant-garde art has been forgotten by
> > history because it either announced a worldview that never
> > manifested, or developed in a dysfunctional manner that did not
> > correspond with evolution's inherent process of "transcend and
> > include." Art that does not include the past, that only tries to
> > transcend it, has invariably been shown to have little depth or
> > lasting value. A strong case can be made for the argument that
the
> > latter happened to some degree with the mid- to late-twentieth
> > century avant-garde. Only a few of the leading names of the
> classical
> > music avant-garde -- such as Luciano Berio, Karlheinz
Stockhausen,
> > Pierre Boulez, and Olivier Messiaen -- have broken through to the
> > general audience, while the movement's music and ideas, though
> > influential, have not announced a new musical paradigm. The
> classical
> > avant-garde's music has not become mainstream and since the end
of
> > the twentieth century the classical music world, as well as some
of
> > the above-mentioned protagonists, has increasingly been edging
back
> > to more traditional tonalities and structures."
> >
> > what do you think of this assessment, josef?
>
> ****Well, Paul, it's a tad unfair to generalize like that about
style
> with such a broad brush (He should be a housepainter!) ... The
> *best* composers are *always* going to be remembered, the others
> forgotten. I can't see how it's any different in jazz: there's
> Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Monk but billions of other
> *forgottens...* Does that mean jazz as a genre or style should
> be "dissed" as not having enough "influence..."

the point about the 'forgottens' was meant to simply illustrate one
the 'symptoms', not the 'cause' of the 'disease', which is associated
with having no roots, no inclusion.

🔗monz <joemonz@...>

> From: paulerlich <paul@...>
> To: <metatuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 5:32 PM
> Subject: [metatuning] operatic vocal style, berio, wilber
>
>

since you brought this up, Joe, and since Paul wants suggestions...

when i was a student at Manhattan School of Music a new piece
by Berio called "Coro", for voices and orchestra, was wowing
everybody. i was lucky enough to see the NYC premier, and
the recording came out on Deutsche Grammophon; don't know if
it's still available.

and then of course, there's always Berio's awesome "Sinfonia",
whose scherzo is a pastiche built around -- guess what? ...
the scherzo from Mahler's 2nd Symphony. ;-)

that movement is the single most widely known piece by Berio
... and the "original" version by Mahler is pretty darn good too!

-monz

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🔗jpehrson2 <jpehrson@...>

--- In metatuning@y..., "monz" <joemonz@y...> wrote:

/metatuning/topicId_1603.html#1704

>
> > From: paulerlich <paul@s...>
> > To: <metatuning@y...>
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 5:32 PM
> > Subject: [metatuning] operatic vocal style, berio, wilber
> >
> >
>
> > --- In metatuning@y..., "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> >
> > > ***I wonder what Carl, or *you* Paul think of the vocal style
of a
> > > composer such as Luciano Berio??
> >
> > i profess complete ignorance. point me to a recording.
>
>
> since you brought this up, Joe, and since Paul wants suggestions...
>
> when i was a student at Manhattan School of Music a new piece
> by Berio called "Coro", for voices and orchestra, was wowing
> everybody. i was lucky enough to see the NYC premier, and
> the recording came out on Deutsche Grammophon; don't know if
> it's still available.
>
> and then of course, there's always Berio's awesome "Sinfonia",
> whose scherzo is a pastiche built around -- guess what? ...
> the scherzo from Mahler's 2nd Symphony. ;-)
>
> that movement is the single most widely known piece by Berio
> ... and the "original" version by Mahler is pretty darn good too!
>
> :)
>
>
****That's pretty funny, Monz. You don't think he "improved" upon
it?? Even with the SWINGLE SINGERS???

🔗paulerlich <paul@...>

🔗jpehrson2 <jpehrson@...>

--- In metatuning@y..., "paulerlich" <paul@s...> wrote:

/metatuning/topicId_1603.html#1697

> --- In metatuning@y..., "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> > --- In metatuning@y..., "paulerlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> >
> > /metatuning/topicId_1603.html#1692
> >
> > > --- In metatuning@y..., "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> > >
> > > > ***I wonder what Carl, or *you* Paul think of the vocal style
> of
> > a
> > > > composer such as Luciano Berio??
> > >
> > > i profess complete ignorance. point me to a recording.
> > >
> > > p.s. paul tingen (again) just mentioned berio in the book i'm
> > > reading. he's referring (as in the other quote) to ken wilber's
> > > philosophy (that dave keenan and i were just discussing), and
is
> > the
> > > the middle of explaining why miles didn't go avant-garde,
didn't
> > > become a "museum piece", and chose the third alternative of
> > including
> > > rock elements:
> > >
> > > "On the other hand, much avant-garde art has been forgotten by
> > > history because it either announced a worldview that never
> > > manifested, or developed in a dysfunctional manner that did not
> > > correspond with evolution's inherent process of "transcend and
> > > include." Art that does not include the past, that only tries
to
> > > transcend it, has invariably been shown to have little depth or
> > > lasting value. A strong case can be made for the argument that
> the
> > > latter happened to some degree with the mid- to late-twentieth
> > > century avant-garde. Only a few of the leading names of the
> > classical
> > > music avant-garde -- such as Luciano Berio, Karlheinz
> Stockhausen,
> > > Pierre Boulez, and Olivier Messiaen -- have broken through to
the
> > > general audience, while the movement's music and ideas, though
> > > influential, have not announced a new musical paradigm. The
> > classical
> > > avant-garde's music has not become mainstream and since the end
> of
> > > the twentieth century the classical music world, as well as
some
> of
> > > the above-mentioned protagonists, has increasingly been edging
> back
> > > to more traditional tonalities and structures."
> > >
> > > what do you think of this assessment, josef?
> >
> > ****Well, Paul, it's a tad unfair to generalize like that about
> style
> > with such a broad brush (He should be a housepainter!) ... The
> > *best* composers are *always* going to be remembered, the others
> > forgotten. I can't see how it's any different in jazz: there's
> > Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Monk but billions of other
> > *forgottens...* Does that mean jazz as a genre or style should
> > be "dissed" as not having enough "influence..."
>
> the point about the 'forgottens' was meant to simply illustrate one
> the 'symptoms', not the 'cause' of the 'disease', which is
associated
> with having no roots, no inclusion.

***Well, then, frankly, I'm not so sure I agree with him. Some of
this music will resurface. It's going to live longer than the "New
Romantics..." Ucck! :)

🔗monz <joemonz@...>

> From: jpehrson2 <jpehrson@...>
> To: <metatuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 8:26 PM
> Subject: [metatuning] operatic vocal style, berio, wilber
>
>
> --- In metatuning@y..., "monz" <joemonz@y...> wrote:
> >
> > and then of course, there's always Berio's awesome "Sinfonia",
> > whose scherzo is a pastiche built around -- guess what? ...
> > the scherzo from Mahler's 2nd Symphony. ;-)
> >
> > that movement is the single most widely known piece by Berio
> > ... and the "original" version by Mahler is pretty darn good too!
> >
> > :)
> >
> >
> ****That's pretty funny, Monz. You don't think he "improved" upon
> it?? Even with the SWINGLE SINGERS???

well ... i d i d call Berio's piece "awesome"!

but you already know how i feel about Mahler ... so let's just
say that these are two great pieces, the later one based on the
earlier. ;-)

and besides, Berio really took that movement out of context.
Mahler's 2nd is invariably the one piece by him that gets an
overpowering reaction from listeners, and that's mostly from
the finale. the scherzo is a fleeting (albeit memorable) moment
during that vast work.

-monz

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🔗clumma <carl@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

Carl!
try Laborintus 2 a bit of italian jazz wittiness that gives his music
some life and humor.
Almost as good as the theme to The 10th Victim!

clumma wrote:

> >***I wonder what Carl, or *you* Paul think of the vocal style of a
> >composer such as Luciano Berio??
>
> I was introduced to Berio's work by a composition student at
> BU. She said he was her favorite living composer. Since we
> also agreed on topics as diverse as Nancarrow and Beethoven's
> late string quartets, I was inclined to give the guy a try. I
> did this with some of his piano stuff, which I can't say is
> bad... actually, I haven't been able to get my ear into it yet,
> so I can't say one way or the other. I haven't heard his choral
> stuff, but I'll check out your link when my high-speed
> connection's back up.
>
> -Carl
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
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-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

Re: [tuning] Re: Orchestration / Microtonality / Adler

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